8061 réponses à ce sujet

[Charsen]

sounds fun. there could be several people per task as needed, some of the jobs especially will benefit from multiple modders. but the more modders, the more need for a project coordinator -- someone who maintains a current build and who deals with documentation (FAQs, readmes, instructions, credits, public uploads, thread maintenance, mod update patches, and cross-modder collaboration, ie deadlines).... not it



we'd also need scripters and testers (people who know how to systematically test all options and report bugs), and probably 2D art separate from 3D models, where 2D would be textures and promo art, and 3D would be meshes. sometimes artists only do one or the other.



i have been thinking of coming back to dao for a bit to mod so if there is a group, then i'd be interested in it. i can do cinematics, scripting, dialogue, worldbuilding, wav work/wav splicing to some degree...



i got too burned out trying to do too much on my own but a group would be nice. i do miss modding for dao, so.

[Corker]

So speaking of all that - how about that Antivan slavery?

If I had to make a model for it, I'd go with "debtors," with the occasional criminal or foreigner thrown in.  There's no war on to take captives, and there's no readily-exploitable region of "others" to use for a 17th-19th century-style slave trade.  So I'm guessing most of the people for sale are there because they are so in debt, this is the only way they can get enough money to pay off their creditors.  

Others might be selling themselves to provide money to their families.  Obviously, we know from Zevran that unwanted children are sold (as, possibly, are children whose parents can't afford to care for them, even if they'd like to).

I imagine certain captial crimes might have slavery as a punishment; I would think that being a "Dalish raider" would be such a crime, as would "qunari spy" (regardless as to what the individual Dalish or qunari might have actually been doing; they're easily identifiable, potentially dangerous and Not Us.)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

I agree, but I'm flailing a bit on how to address that without turning it into "Warden single-handedly abolishes Antivan slave culture in a frenzy of blood and violence."  Because you know the Warden could. I could put in some side quests addressing the issue from a few angles, including at least one youth selling himself into slavery because he hopes for a better life, but I just worry that it raises the question of, "Why doesn't the Warden just go down to the slave pens and start reaping a deadly harvest of slavers?"

Well...there's nothing stopping you from allowing the Warden from destroying at least one slaver ring. Freeing the slaves could have a whole *range* of reactions, from outright gratitude, fear (what will become of me now, with no family or means of support on the dangerous streets of Antiva), even anger (I wanted to sell myself to provide for my family!/I had been purchased by someone reputed to be a good master who cares for his slaves, now where will I go?!). It might give the Warden/player some perspective that slavery is so ingrained into Antivan culture that some people feel they are better off in that life, or would rather have a household to tend than be homeless. It's not all about people being unwilling victims, as it was in the Denerim alienage.

[Corker]

Charsen wrote...

sounds fun. there could be several people per task as needed, some of the jobs especially will benefit from multiple modders. but the more modders, the more need for a project coordinator -- someone who maintains a current build and who deals with documentation (FAQs, readmes, instructions, credits, public uploads, thread maintenance, mod update patches, and cross-modder collaboration, ie deadlines).... not it

I am good at that kind of thing.  However, things at RL work are in a bit of flux at the moment and I'm not willing to sign up for project management right now.  I am willing to work on the module.   In the future, if things settle down and I think I can get away with it, I'll reconsider volunteering.

[maradeux]

I'm really keen about all your constructive thoughts concerning a Zevran-mod. And at the same time I feel sooo useless. I have no idea about the toolset (and besides my pc is too weak for it), I'm not a native speaker, so dialog writing would be "difficult" at least. Voice actor - I speak with an accent, but not with an "Antivian" accent. ;(

But - if there is something I could do - whatever... I would really like to help.

Modifié par maradeux, 09 septembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Charsen - Yes to all of that...and we'd definitely need some management/organisation to hold everything together (provided we can GET everything else ).

@Corker - Maybe Antiva gets slaves from the Imperium as well? Depending on how you think they do things, they could have 'educated' or 'trained' slaves, like artisans and poets that Antiva's Merchant Princes might want to buy, maybe as some sort of luxury possession. There could also be slave-gangs that ambush visiting sailors when they're on shore leave, or simply visiting foreigners who walk down the wrong street. Otherwise...debtors, criminals and people who have sold themselves to provide for their families would probably be the bulk of the slave trade, IMO.

Edit:

@mara - You could do the German translation. ;D

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 septembre 2010 - 12:33 .

[maradeux]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@mara - You could do the German translation. ;D

*lol* Of course. If needed...

[ICevoL]

Reminder: The deadline for competitive entries for this week's prompt is ~12 hours from now (9:00 PM EST).  I'll provide actual feedback when the winner is announced Friday morning, but let me just say that I'm thrilled so many people took part with such a variety of entries.  Judging this is going to be tough!  Y'all rock! *loves on the thread*

RE: Corker's mod: This sounds great, and I'm certainly willing to pitch in!  I haven't used the toolset yet, but my PC can handle it -- I started my career as a programmer, so I should be able to figure it out *g*.  For the same reason, I could help with testing (ah, decision trees! how I recall your treacherous branches) and technical documentation ("read me" etc.).

About voice-over work -- an online friend of mine works in the television business, and I asked her about this a while back.  She said that while VO work doesn't pay actors as much in a per hour sense, a lot of them like it because it's quick, easy money.  Based on what she explained to me, he main hurdles I can think of to having Jon Curry do the Zevran voice would be (1) getting a proposal to his agent [I looked at JC's IMDB profile, and he has contact information for "pro" users of the site] (2) getting recording studio time if he accepts, and (3) the big one is this -- since Zevran is owned by BioWare and EA, I don't know what kind of permissions (if any) we'd need to get to the intellectual property in order to have JC do this.

The money side of the equation seems the least of these issues.  Heck, if we could work out the rest of the details, I'd pay the man myself.  I'm not hurting for cash, so I'd gladly do this if we could use JC instead of using a replacement voice.

Just my thoughts on the subject -- YMMV

[jenovan]

@Corker - I love the basic outline of the module, it sounds like it would be a lot of fun to play through (wheee Satinalia XD).

Corker wrote...

I don't think he ever says one way or the other.  Soignee proposed that the surname might be a Crow House name, and I thought maybe all the Crows who worked under the auspices of Nobleman X would be given his name, as in, "Who's that?"  "He's one of Arainai's."  They're not members of the House; they literally belong to it. 

But there's no canon support for that idea, either.

I suppose no one's ever asked David Gaider about this?   (or at least, never gotten an answer, hehe...)  That might be one basic thing to try to clear up before using the names in such a way in a module.  I have to admit that I always thought of Arainai as Zevran's mother's name, cos it doesn't sound very Mediterranean to me, but that isn't much of an argument.   It is interesting, though, that Zev is the only companion for whom we're straight-up given a last name... even if it never comes up in-game.  (That might be an argument for the fact that it's a Crow-related name...)

People who have been through hazing generally defend the practice, even though it seems, on the outside, to be indefensible.  This is obviously an order of magnitude worse than that, but I do wonder if some of the same thinking would apply.  "Well, it's unpleasant but the system works to make good assassins.  *I* went through it and survived, so..."  So I could actually see Zevran defending Crow practices.  Not sure that would go down well.

This is definitely a good point.  There is no arguing that the system works, and Zevran cites reasons why being a Crow (if you survive the training) isn't so bad a lifestyle.

I'll try to ponder on that.  I'll admit, I'm somewhat loathe to have assassins who are too 'good.' It's like having your cake and eating it, too. It seems more Bioware to say, "You can have this awesome Crow organization, but for this terrible price.  Or, you end the slave trade, the Crows fall and the Tevinter and the qunari use Antiva as their new playground."

Hah, yes, the trade-off would be very appropriate to how major decisions are made in the DA universe so far.   I like the idea of trying to sow the seeds of an army -- perhaps there are contacts among the nobility (or even the Crows, I'm thinking of that one influential Master) who would be receptive ears for such a thing...


A side note on the Patriot mechanic -- I like the idea, but on a very personal level, when I looked at the choices through the eyes of my CE, I automatically chose most of the options that would max out Patriot points, not because he wanted to stay, or wanted Zevran to stay, but because it seemed to be in the best interest of Zev's safety.  That would bring up an ugly surprise at endgame when/if Zev expressed a desire to stay ;D  I know you said the point totals are still kind of rough, but yeah -- as it says at the beginning of the doc, if Zev's already expressed his desire to stay with the Warden, I'd be wary of the threshold where that might change.

All in all, though, well-thought out.  Omg cannnn we do this? XD

As far as working on the mod, I could...
- write dialogue
- test (repetitive tasks, go!)
- create morphs for characters

I do have the toolset up and running, I'm just not particularly well-versed in the details of... well, anything besides making morphs.   Not yet, anyway.

Modifié par jenovan, 09 septembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Kornichon]

wooow, awesome things are happening here!
I don't think I can help you but I'll keep an eye on it

(I especially love the "no organized crime for dog" XD )

[jenovan]

(LOL, yes, the dog carta cracked me up XD)


Okay! Now that the recipient has seen it and all... XD;  I finally finished Minaleth's prize for her winning the "Hair" mini-contest.   It's posted over on my blog~

[caridounette]

I like to see how dedicated you guys are. Well considering some of you are here since a long long time, im not that surprised either. 

Seeing what nice mods have already been done for DAO, maybe a Zev mod could be possible. Or at least a nice creative idea to keep us busy for a while 


University lets me have some free time so i could help out. But then i never made mods before. I could learn or do simple repetitve things (like Jenovan said). Ther you have it.

[TanithAeyrs]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well...does anyone here have the time/ability/inclination to collaborate on a Zevran mod?

I've written dialogue for mods before (not DA:O, but I'm sure I could pick up how the toolset works there), and I'd be willing to work on it if we could hammer out a decent plot.

But we'd also need:
More dialogue writers
Worldbuilders
Cinematic Artists
Custom art (if we want to get REALLY unique with building meshes, new items etc...I mean, if the story ends up going to Antiva, would we be ok with using Ferelden buildings?)
Voice Actors
Someone to kidnap Jim Curry (or a good imitator, if splicing just won't cut it)

I would be willing to help.  I really don't know anything about making a mod but I understand there are quite a few good tutorials linked in the toolset forum.  I would be happy to do some writing and to try my hand at other things.  Dark Times Confederacy of Malkuth team has some files of character voices (wav files?) that they are using for their mod - perhaps they will share - I know Tarante11a worked a lot on the Zev files.

[ejoslin]

I'd be willing to help, but I'm not sure what good I would be. My claim to fame is more to do with proofing than anything interesting or creative. But it's a fun idea for sure.

[EccentricSage]

Corker wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Question, though:  I thought Arinai was his mother's maiden name?  I could be wrong, as I do not remember why I thought this. 

I don't think he ever says one way or the other.  Soignee proposed that the surname might be a Crow House name, and I thought maybe all the Crows who worked under the auspices of Nobleman X would be given his name, as in, "Who's that?"  "He's one of Arainai's."  They're not members of the House; they literally belong to it. 

But there's no canon support for that idea, either.

That makes sence.  It's sad, though, for his identity to be defined be his masters.  But I guess that is realistic.

EccentricSage wrote...

Also, I think it would be even better if the issue of how the Crows are run and how they recruit is adressed through side quests with Patriot points rewarded depending uppon how Zevran feels about the outcomes, as well as aproval or disaproval points for the PC's part in it.  I think it would be important that Zevran would adress the cruelty of the organization and would have strong opinions on such matters that the Warden would be hard pressed to persuade-check him on, since this would hit much closer to home than the choices in Origins where Zevran speeks out against PC decissions. 

I agree, but I'm flailing a bit on how to address that without turning it into "Warden single-handedly abolishes Antivan slave culture in a frenzy of blood and violence."  Because you know the Warden could. I could put in some side quests addressing the issue from a few angles, including at least one youth selling himself into slavery because he hopes for a better life, but I just worry that it raises the question of, "Why doesn't the Warden just go down to the slave pens and start reaping a deadly harvest of slavers?"

I'm also very concerned that, precisely because this does hit quite close to home for Zevran, figuring out his reactions won't be easy (because they won't necessarily be logical) and, since I'm not his original author, I don't know if I should try to make those calls.  I'd like to think that Zev would stand up against Crow practices like he stands against killing the Dalish or the mages or the elves in the Alienage, but... 

People who have been through hazing generally defend the practice, even though it seems, on the outside, to be indefensible.  This is obviously an order of magnitude worse than that, but I do wonder if some of the same thinking would apply.  "Well, it's unpleasant but the system works to make good assassins.  *I* went through it and survived, so..."  So I could actually see Zevran defending Crow practices.  Not sure that would go down well.

(Although... that is kind of the point of the exercise.  I don't want to "spoil" Zevran for anyone, but I can't believe that he hasn't done some really dark things in his time, and they're all invisible in Origins.  They'll be visible in Antiva, and they both have to come to terms with what he's been in the past and what he wants to be in the future.)

I agree completely.  I think Zevran would be very conflicted.  On one hand he's gotten to explore compassion and love (not necasarily romantic) with the Warden, and has for the most part embraced his kind side.  But on the other hand, I do not doubt one bit that he enjoyed the 'hunt' just as he said.  It would be verry easy for him to instinctively fall back into old ways, or to just freez up at times and not know what to do.

I think the compasionate side of him would want more rights and better treatment for the slaves, and freedom only if you can find a way not to collapse the whole system in doing so.  His pragmatic side would likely see the existance of the Crows as a necesity that can not be abolished in Antivan culture and politics.  Zevran has never said he thinks killing is wrong... just that people should die for the right reasons, actions should be measured, the kill should be clean, sometimes people have to die, and that's not fair, but that's life.  It's a mindset one isn't invited to play with very often.

I don't think he'd be ashamed of most of what he's done, though I think he would be worried about the Warden's reactions.  The fact that he is proud of what he is, yet at the same time has his own ethical code and compassion is what makes Zevran compelling instead of just another 'remorseful criminal with a heart of gold'.

Likewise, it would be awesome if there were ways to balance the orginization back out and prevent it from becoming too weak once you make changes and kill masters.  If the player fails to do quests and make the right decisions to balance it, then maybe the ending slide could reflect that. 

GET AN ARMY, ANTIVA.   (My preferred solution!  )  All the cool nations do it.  Even the Orlesians manage it.

I'll try to ponder on that.  I'll admit, I'm somewhat loathe to have assassins who are too 'good.' It's like having your cake and eating it, too. It seems more Bioware to say, "You can have this awesome Crow organization, but for this terrible price.  Or, you end the slave trade, the Crows fall and the Tevinter and the qunari use Antiva as their new playground."

Hm... maybe a side quest to sow the seeds of GET AN ARMY...

I agree completely.  Though I think to replace the Crows with an army could lead to civil war.  I don't think the Crows would quietly accsept politicians and nobility haveing a force they can order around instead of negotiate with.  It would be a radical change and would threaten the Crows.

Also, armed forces don't always mean less cruelty and bloodshed.  Just look at Orlais for example.  In a way, the idea of the Crows being so feared that the nobles of foreign nations don't want to anger them spares many people from suffering and untimely death.  Sadly it is at the price of innocent slaves, as well as anyone who gets caught up in Antivan politics, even acsidentally.  I don't think this would be lost on Zevran, who loves his country despite how he's suffered, and who tends to think more about the big picture rather than the welfare of a single individual.  I could see it becoming a simular situation to the Anvil of the Void where Zevran argues in favor of slavery on the condition that the slaves are willing.  A stance I dissagree with, as that power would be abused, etc. but it's easy to understand where he is coming from.


I've never worked on mods before, but if there is any way I can help, I will.  I've been wanting to learn how to do these things. 

[EccentricSage]

ICevoL wrote...


Reminder: The deadline for competitive entries for this week's prompt is ~12 hours from now (9:00 PM EST).  I'll provide actual feedback when the winner is announced Friday morning, but let me just say that I'm thrilled so many people took part with such a variety of entries.  Judging this is going to be tough!  Y'all rock! *loves on the thread*

RE: Corker's mod: This sounds great, and I'm certainly willing to pitch in!  I haven't used the toolset yet, but my PC can handle it -- I started my career as a programmer, so I should be able to figure it out *g*.  For the same reason, I could help with testing (ah, decision trees! how I recall your treacherous branches) and technical documentation ("read me" etc.).

About voice-over work -- an online friend of mine works in the television business, and I asked her about this a while back.  She said that while VO work doesn't pay actors as much in a per hour sense, a lot of them like it because it's quick, easy money.  Based on what she explained to me, he main hurdles I can think of to having Jon Curry do the Zevran voice would be (1) getting a proposal to his agent [I looked at JC's IMDB profile, and he has contact information for "pro" users of the site] (2) getting recording studio time if he accepts, and (3) the big one is this -- since Zevran is owned by BioWare and EA, I don't know what kind of permissions (if any) we'd need to get to the intellectual property in order to have JC do this.

The money side of the equation seems the least of these issues.  Heck, if we could work out the rest of the details, I'd pay the man myself.  I'm not hurting for cash, so I'd gladly do this if we could use JC instead of using a replacement voice.

Just my thoughts on the subject -- YMMV

That would be so awesome!!!  0_0

[Corker]

EccentricSage wrote...

I don't think he'd be ashamed of most of what he's done, though I think he would be worried about the Warden's reactions.  The fact that he is proud of what he is, yet at the same time has his own ethical code and compassion is what makes Zevran compelling instead of just another 'remorseful criminal with a heart of gold'.

So the really hard scene that presents itself to me is the one where you meet a Crow that Zevran trained.  And he might be quite proud of his apprentice and his apprentice is very thankful for the good training he recieved, and it all seems quite shiny and happy.

And then you remember that Crow training involves sessions on the rack and generally trying to kill every ounce of empathy a person has.

We're all very used to seeing Zevran as a victim of that system, but I keep finding it unlikely that he never participated from the other end, either.  It's not pleasant to contemplate, but there it is.

*shrug* I can put it in and, if this ever goes anywhere, if people hate it they can remove it.

[EccentricSage]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Charsen - Yes to all of that...and we'd definitely need some management/organisation to hold everything together (provided we can GET everything else ).

@Corker - Maybe Antiva gets slaves from the Imperium as well? Depending on how you think they do things, they could have 'educated' or 'trained' slaves, like artisans and poets that Antiva's Merchant Princes might want to buy, maybe as some sort of luxury possession. There could also be slave-gangs that ambush visiting sailors when they're on shore leave, or simply visiting foreigners who walk down the wrong street. Otherwise...debtors, criminals and people who have sold themselves to provide for their families would probably be the bulk of the slave trade, IMO.

Edit:

@mara - You could do the German translation. ;D

I don't think kidnapping foreigners who visit Antiva would actually be tollerated, since it would dissuade ships from docking there, traiders from traiding thee, and random travelers from visiting there.  It would cripple the economy.

I think the debtors, slaves baught from Tavinter, and family members who sold themselves into slavery to provide for their family are all good ideas.  I think it's cannon, also, from Zevran's past, that if a debtor dies, his or her family could become enslaved, just as Zevran's poor mother was forced to become a prostitute for her husband's dept.  Likewise, it's implied that people can't really work their way to freedom, paying off the debt as a slave, and that those who are born of slaves such as Zevran have no rights and are instantly slaves.

What with the brothels, it seems like Antiva practically has a breading program for cheap disposable slaves.

Corker wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

I
don't think he'd be ashamed of most of what he's done, though I think he
would be worried about the Warden's reactions.  The fact that he is
proud of what he is, yet at the same time has his own ethical code and
compassion is what makes Zevran compelling instead of just another
'remorseful criminal with a heart of gold'.

So
the really hard scene that presents itself to me is the one where you
meet a Crow that Zevran trained.  And he might be quite proud of his
apprentice and his apprentice is very thankful for the good training he
recieved, and it all seems quite shiny and happy.

And then you
remember that Crow training involves sessions on the rack and generally
trying to kill every ounce of empathy a person has.

We're all
very used to seeing Zevran as a victim of that system, but I keep
finding it unlikely that he never participated from the other end,
either.  It's not pleasant to contemplate, but there it is.

*shrug* I can put it in and, if this ever goes anywhere, if people hate it they can remove it.

I agree.  Not to mention the fact that many do not survive the training.  I'm sure Zevran had to kill some of his fellow slaves himself in his own training, before he ever even did his first job.  His mention that he was better off than the ****house boys who didn't become crows comes to mind.  When he said that, it just sounded to me like he was implying something horrific became of them once they became too old for the ****house.  By then they would have been verry inexpensive. 

It didn't sound to me like Zevran had the kind of status in the Crows to where he'd have his own aprentice, but I could see him haveing to mentor new recruits and take part in their training.

I really think watching Sparticus: Blood and Sand makes it easier to understand and imagine what the culture must have been like.  A culture where certain slaves are told they are better than others, and should be proud of being a slave to their master, and will be better off for doing so.  Thus the slaves themselves perpetuate the mindset to those below them, even though most of those below them are doomed.  Change only comes when one very talented slave is pushed too far by a trecherous master, and becomes disillusioned.  Zevran is kind of the Crow's Sparticus, except that he never knew freedom before being baught by the Crows.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[jenovan]

Corker wrote...

So the really hard scene that presents itself to me is the one where you meet a Crow that Zevran trained.  And he might be quite proud of his apprentice and his apprentice is very thankful for the good training he recieved, and it all seems quite shiny and happy.

And then you remember that Crow training involves sessions on the rack and generally trying to kill every ounce of empathy a person has.

We're all very used to seeing Zevran as a victim of that system, but I keep finding it unlikely that he never participated from the other end, either.  It's not pleasant to contemplate, but there it is.

*shrug* I can put it in and, if this ever goes anywhere, if people hate it they can remove it.

That is chilling, all the more so because it's quite plausible.

On the other hand, it might also depend on how you view the Crow "machine" working.  I always vaguely imagined that there were specific "trainers", at least for the fundamental things, and did not picture Zevran as one of those.  (Maybe because it's something more of a position of authority and I never got the feeling that he had any? Don't know..)  I could see him training younger Crows/older fledglings in the field, though, and there would almost certainly be some heart-hardening lessons in that...

Painful, but probably something the romancing Warden has to be able to accept, if they mean to stay that way...

[Collider]

My canon Warden kills Zevran. But he's a good character.

[Charsen]

Made a group for the discussion of a possible unofficial DLC for Zevran. anyone may join... we need to build ideas for this project first, so it's a big brainstorm.

[ejoslin]

Collider wrote...

My canon Warden kills Zevran. But he's a good character.

Hmmmm, I think you're kind of mean for depriving Wynne of her fun

But congratulations on this, ummm, accomplishment?  *grin*



Edit: I completely did!

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 septembre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Corker]

@jenovan, I can see your points about authority. My gut feeling, though, is that the real test of whether or not your apprentice Crow training has really stuck, whether or not you're *really* a cold, remorseless machine who'll do whatever the Masters say, is to involve you in the same things that were done to you. Now you can't claim you're innocent. You can't claim you're better-than. You're one of them, in every way, and you're such wretched scum for it that you'd better not ever even *think* you could be accepted elsewhere.

It's really bloody dark, and I admit that's why I was glossing it over. :/

[EccentricSage]

Charsen wrote...

Made a group for the discussion of a possible unofficial DLC for Zevran. anyone may join... we need to build ideas for this project first, so it's a big brainstorm.

  Long time no see!  *hug*

We should probably copy-paste the discussion whe had here into a thread there, as an archive, since so many ideas are already flying around. 

Sadly, I have to leave for the day soon here, but I'll try to check back in when I get home tonight.

This is all so exciting! 

[Collider]

Hmmmm, I think you're kind of mean for depriving Wynne of her fun

I am truly a bad person.