8061 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

wildannie wrote...

what kind of a person do you think Zevran would have been if his parents had not met an unhappy end?

I don't think he'd have been ruthless at all - probably fun loving and kind.

His father might very well have been a john and his mother was a prostitute. His father might still be alive and if his mother hadn't died it's possible that he wouldn't have been sold to the Crows but then he'd have spent his life as a **** and he thinks that he was lucky to avoid that fate. If the man his mother followed to Antiva City had lived and was Zevran's father his life would have been completely different, I'm sure.

[ejoslin]

I guess, with regards to Taliesen, Zevran says two things, and that makes me think the relationship was completely shallow. He will say Taliesen was a good friend and more (meaning they were lovers), but he will also say he has never had a friend. The script notes also reference the fact that Zevran never had a friend. It was probably as meaningful of a relationship that could be had in those circumstances, but still, no meaning at all. That's just my interpretation, though.

Sex is a very normal reaction to death I think. Not necessarily in a conquest type way (though that is an uglier side of human nature), but also in a way of affirming we're still alive. I see your point, though; I just don't think you'd have to be a hard person to react to the situation by wanting physical comfort, nor do I think it's a bad thing to offer it.

The situation itself -- ugh.

See, I don't see Zevran really hooking up with Leliana in the camp either. They're both supposed to be extremely attractive (whether someone likes the character models is aside the point -- they're both supposed to be incredibly good looking), and with quite promiscuous pasts. With the promiscuity for the most part being because of business. In many ways, I think Zevran attaches more meaning to sex than Leliana does -- he actually humanizes the marks he had sex with to a certain extent, where Leliana never discusses the men she had sex with, as individuals, but only that it happened. They had no impact on her at all; only her former lover did.

It's just with Zevran, the conditioning started SO young. And it just didn't quite work. Which is a testament to his inner strength I suppose.

Edit: Sarah is right, Zevran does say he doesn't know who his father was -- as he put it, his mother was a wh*re.

Second edit: I think Zevran is very much a product of his upbringing.  I think he would have been just as strong and as driven had he been raised differently, but I seriously doubt that he would have been an assassin.  The thing is, it was all he knew, it was what he was taught was right.  But despite all he was taught, he still is capable of love and compassion.

Third edit: Wow, talk about disjointed.  I think I need to get some sleep!

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[wildannie]

sarah, ejoslin - thanks for your thoughts. Yes his strength of character is not something he could have been taught by the crows (or anyone).

I suppose all we really know about his father is that he was elven (elf + human = human?)... although I don't know what happens when a dwarf and elf have a child...

[soignee]

wildannie wrote...

sarah, ejoslin - thanks for your thoughts. Yes his strength of character is not something he could have been taught by the crows (or anyone).
I suppose all we really know about his father is that he was elven (elf + human = human?)... although I don't know what happens when a dwarf and elf have a child...

Would be a dwarf, the union of a dwarf/elf union. Though highly unlikely given how dwarven fertility is.

Re: Taliesen- firmly in the "it was just a hookup" camp. I also reckon he knew far more about the Rinna situation then he was letting on, and had a leading hand in her death. I've always read it as a kind of triangle; him watching Zevran with Rinna, getting jealous -mainly at Zevran's reactions to her, and not to *him*- and Taliesen as a man outside, watching it all. 

[Sarah1281]

I suppose all we really know about his father is that he was elven (elf + human = human?)... although I don't know what happens when a dwarf and elf have a child...

Dwarf. When an elf has a child with someone else, the species of the other parent seems to determine what species the child is.

[wildannie]

soignee wrote...


Re: Taliesen- firmly in the "it was just a hookup" camp. I also reckon he knew far more about the Rinna situation then he was letting on, and had a leading hand in her death. I've always read it as a kind of triangle; him watching Zevran with Rinna, getting jealous -mainly at Zevran's reactions to her, and not to *him*- and Taliesen as a man outside, watching it all. 

I agree completely with this ^ - it's so horrible and sad.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ehh. I don't believe that Taliesen was in on any plan involving Rinna, or even jealous about her, but we really don't know enough about Taliesen in the end to have a conclusive answer. I know we all love our sordid love triangles and jealous lovers, but I tend to think it's more tragic if both men were gulled. That way, in Denerim, Zevran kills a man who never really wronged him and, in his own way, tried to look out for him whenever things went south.

It sucks more for Zevran if he helped to kill (or allowed to be killed) the closest thing he had to a friend in the Crows. The Rinna spin reduces/removes the impact of that and introduces a sense of justice to Taliesen's death that I don't think belongs there.

But...that's just another take in a long line of Taliesen/Zevran/Rinna takes.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:04 .

[ejoslin]

I think Zevran and Taliesen were more than just a hook up, though, as he'll refuse to fight Taliesen if his feelings for the warden are between 26 - 70 when romanced. He's in a confrontation between his former lover and his current romantic interest and he cannot choose between them. See, once Zevran gets to those levels, I believe he has feelings for the warden -- his feelings are strong enough he cares about the future, trusts the warden with some very personal information (though not about the last mission).

I would say a shift happens at about 51+ care, actually, because of what he says if there's a breakup. At "interested" he's not really considering it a relationship, but at "care" he is.

Once he hits adore, however, there's no doubt that he's in a bit over his head. He trusts the warden as he never trusted anyone, and while he still may place the warden in the "friends and more" category, the warden is probably the only person he felt close to.

Of course, everyone knows I think that relationship with Rinna was shallow as well. I think it took the warden showing him what friendship, and perhaps love, to teach him about real, in depth feelings and relationships.  With Rinna, I think he thought he was in love, but when he really did fall in love, he realized he had no clue what love really is.

Then again, I also don't think that Taliesen deliberately set Rinna up. Zevran certainly didn't think so. That there was a triangle there is no doubt -- they were both Zevran's lovers.  But I don't think there was actually jealousy there -- for all we know, Taliesen and Rinna were lovers as well.  It just makes sense to me that the merchant realized he had assassins after him and set them against each other.

hmmm, there's probably a point buried in there. I love this about the story -- the framework is given, but it's possible to fill in the details in so many different ways.

Edit: I did edit.  A lot.  And it still probably doesn't make much sense.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Tellervo]

Thought you guys would like to know there's apparently a wedding mod out for Alistair... I know someone told Charsen they were "taking over" weddings, was that the group?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

How do people 'take over' mods, anyway? Seems kinda...rude. It's not like anyone can have a monopoly on a certain theme for a mod, either...



As for Zevran and Rinna's relationship, I'm not sure how deep it was. There was certainly enough there that Zevran actually admits what she made him feel scared him, and scared him enough that he was willing to have her conveniently removed from the realm of the living. Maybe it wasn't love, maybe it was, but some sort of attachment or sentiment was present (at least on Zevran's part) that Zevran recognised as risky and reckless.

[ejoslin]

People really can't take over other people's mods, but there never is much point in making a mod that someone else is also working on -- best case scenario is you work with someone. worst case is you realize you cannot work with them at ALL. But if someone is bound and determined to do the work you're doing, it does get frustrating because it does take a lot of time, and it feels like a waste (no bitterness here, nope!).



Anyway...



Don't get me wrong about Rinna. He did think he loved her. I just think that ALL relationships were very shallow, surface-type relationships because all of them were taught not to form attachments. There most definitely was an attachment there -- but as far as real love goes? He was so quick to let her die. He laughed at her and spit on her. This is not a deep, enduring love. He sees it as a condemnation of of himself, though.



So he considered Taliesen a good friend, he considered Rinna someone he loved. But those feelings ran very shallow. I doubt her death would have bothered him one bit had she actually betrayed them. That's not to say that what he did didn't impact him greatly -- it did. I think more than her dying, though, was he saw, quite clearly, what he was.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Oh no, whatever it was I don't think it was deep and enduring (not that it couldn't have become so in time, outside the Crows). I agree her death wouldn't have bothered him had she actually been a traitor--in fact, it might have reinforced his beliefs that attachments and opening yourself to emotional exploitation is a stupid thing to do.



And yes very much on him seeing what he was...and wanting to end that.

[soignee]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ehh. I don't believe that Taliesen was in on any plan involving Rinna, or even jealous about her, but we really don't know enough about Taliesen in the end to have a conclusive answer..

yup.

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin, I think you make sense. I think everyone's made really great points.



In a way, I think Taliesen probably had stronger feelings for Zevran than Zevran had for him. After all, he chased Zev all the way to Ferelden, and tried to bring him back, at risk of getting himself in trouble, or dying at the hands of the Wardens. Considering people thought Zevran's suicide mission was... well... suicide... it says a lot that Taliesen undertook that same insurmountable risk ether to have Zevran at his side again, or avenge him if he's perished. I wish we knew more about Taliesen. He's one of those really intriguing side characters that you know would have had a great story.



But at the same time, Taliesen seems to also be even more indoctrinated than Zevran. In the end, he will fight Zevran if he sides with the Warden. Perhaps there would be a feeling of betrayal. Ultimately, it is as Zevran says... Taliesen had the wrong priorities. I will always find it a terribly tragic story. Taliesen, at the end of the day, was blind to possibilities outside of the Crows, and was utterly doomed.



Mind you, all this romantic talk about the character does not mean I am putting him on a pedistule. I imagine him probably being more bloodthirsty and cold hearted than Zevran. I just imagine him never believing there is any other way, unlike Zev, and imagine Zev being that one special person he could experience some fraction of humanity with, even if he'd never admit it, which I'm sure, from his cocky show he put on, he would not. But there had to be some deeply buried but powerful feeling that would compel him to follow Zevran to his death as he did.



As for Rinna, I don't think he was in love. I think he was infatuated, and the sway that light fluffy feeling and sudden obsession would give her over him much have been exactly what he thought love WOULD be like, and was terrifying to him.



I think the cruelty and injustice of the situation is what struck him, not lost love. He said he confessed to his master and asked to be punished for it. I think if his master HAD punished him, it would have reinforced his belief that there is some honor and justice behind what the Crow's do. I think when that master told him the fate of slaves means nothing, and that him and his comrades are meaningless, he couldn't come to terms with both what he is AND what the Crows really are. His last shreds of pride and dignity, and his last delusions of justification and grandure, had been stripped from him. It reminds me of Sparticus: Blood and Sand, when Sparticus realizes what his master really is, and what him and his fellows really are to the Romans, and that the honor of it all was just a fabrication to keep them alive long enough to make their masters rich and powerful.



I agree that Zevran humanizes his marks more than Lel. He can justify killing them because it was not his choice to live this life, and he has a natural right to kill for survival. But he recognizes it for what it is. I love that he will not apologize for killing, had little choice, and does have the honor and courage to see that for what it is and admit it to others. Lelliana, interestingly enough, SEEMS like she's so much like him, yet she's the exact opposite on all those accounts, and then some. (hence why I find her especially reprehensible)



As for what he'd be like if his parents lived... Well... if his father were a John, I think his life would have been ether that of a ****, or thrown out to beg, or sold for some purpose somehow worse than being a Crow. I always got the impression from the careful way Zevran worded that bit about him being luckier than the other ****house boys, that many of them suffered a really terrible end or something. I mean, would being a **** really be worse for them than being a Crow? Crows practically have to **** themselves in a manner of speaking anyhow, and have to endure terrible tortures and look forward to a violent death. It leaves me thinking many of those boys probably suffered violent deaths, starvation, or toiling in squalor until they die of disease and malnourishment for their fates to be worse. Zevran might have been lucky enough to JUST remain a ****, had he not been sold, as we know how sexy and charming he grew up to be. That's still not so great.



As for if his mother's husband had not died? I imagine he wouldn't be the sexy bad ass he became, and might not be as tough. As a Crow he survived many trials and hard life lessons, that while terrible and damaging, also made him stronger and granted him a unique perspective and wisdom. I think, that inner strength, kind heart, and cunning is inharent to him, though, and he would have grown up to be a mostly lovely person. I think he'd still be a flirtatious and humorous fellow, who could handle the trials of being an elf in such a human society with grace. He probably still would have gotten in some trouble with humans, I'm sure, as he is a strong willed and proud person. But over all, I think he'd be a softer, less sexual, less conflicted version of the Zevran we know.

[soignee]

I thought Zevran's father was a woodcutter and not a john? *hazily recalls something* I believe that more, oddly, over a client of Zev!mum.

*eta* The story goes that his mother wh*red to pay off the debts of the woodcutter, as she fell in love. Nothing is said about who the father is.

Modifié par soignee, 23 octobre 2010 - 08:53 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

EccentricSage wrote...

I think the cruelty and injustice of the situation is what struck him, not lost love. He said he confessed to his master and asked to be punished for it. I think if his master HAD punished him, it would have reinforced his belief that there is some honor and justice behind what the Crow's do. I think when that master told him the fate of slaves means nothing, and that him and his comrades are meaningless, he couldn't come to terms with both what he is AND what the Crows really are. His last shreds of pride and dignity, and his last delusions of justification and grandure, had been stripped from him.

Zevran wanted to confess, but Taliesen talked him out of it (presumably because he believed they would be punished). It was the master who despised Zevran who confronted him and said the Crows already knew.

As for his father, it's never said. All we can be sure of, from a genetic standpoint, is that he was an elf.

[EccentricSage]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

I think the cruelty and injustice of the situation is what struck him, not lost love. He said he confessed to his master and asked to be punished for it. I think if his master HAD punished him, it would have reinforced his belief that there is some honor and justice behind what the Crow's do. I think when that master told him the fate of slaves means nothing, and that him and his comrades are meaningless, he couldn't come to terms with both what he is AND what the Crows really are. His last shreds of pride and dignity, and his last delusions of justification and grandure, had been stripped from him.

Zevran wanted to confess, but Taliesen talked him out of it (presumably because he believed they would be punished). It was the master who despised Zevran who confronted him and said the Crows already knew.

As for his father, it's never said. All we can be sure of, from a genetic standpoint, is that he was an elf.

Bah, you're right!  My brain seems to be simplifying the story I guess.  I could have sworn there was something about Zevran wanting to be punished, though....

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

EccentricSage wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

I think the cruelty and injustice of the situation is what struck him, not lost love. He said he confessed to his master and asked to be punished for it. I think if his master HAD punished him, it would have reinforced his belief that there is some honor and justice behind what the Crow's do. I think when that master told him the fate of slaves means nothing, and that him and his comrades are meaningless, he couldn't come to terms with both what he is AND what the Crows really are. His last shreds of pride and dignity, and his last delusions of justification and grandure, had been stripped from him.

Zevran wanted to confess, but Taliesen talked him out of it (presumably because he believed they would be punished). It was the master who despised Zevran who confronted him and said the Crows already knew.

As for his father, it's never said. All we can be sure of, from a genetic standpoint, is that he was an elf.

Bah, you're right!  My brain seems to be simplifying the story I guess.  I could have sworn there was something about Zevran wanting to be punished, though....

I get the impression from Zevran's confession to the Warden that he *did* want to be punished, even if he never says it in so many words. It makes sense to me as well that he might have even wanted punishment to balance what he had done (sort of like the Catholic way(?) of being instructed to do some sort of penance to demonstrate regret for one's sins).

[wildannie]

I wonder how the crows already knew about what they had done? - their knowledge would make sense if Taliesen was involved in some way. If so maybe this was nothing to do with Taliesen's feelings but rather, him carrying out orders.

If the crows were taught that love was wrong, the developing feelings between Rinna and Zevran could have been the reason for her death.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

That is one of the theories, wildannie (although it means Taliesen must have been a pretty good actor--good enough to fool Zevran who was able to tell Morrigan was up to something in DA:O).

It's also possible the group was under surveillance to see how they fared. This job *was* supposed to be incredibly difficult, and Zevran gives the impression that he only landed the contract because a master grew tired of his constant bragging. This suggests to me the master (if not other masters) would have been interested enough to have someone (at the least) keep watch on Zevran's progress and probable demise.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:05 .

[ejoslin]

Edit: keep in mind that the Crows know exactly what happens with Zevran.  Even if you kill him or let him go, they know.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:47 .

[wildannie]

You're right, this is absolutely plausible too SOLD, as Ejoslin points out, the genius of the game is the way we can all fill in the blanks in our own ways.



It's hard to imagine Zevran being tricked as he's pretty infallible when it comes to detecting b******t when with the Warden. However, I expect any successful crow would have to be a pretty good actor so it's hard to gauge how good Zevran was amongst fellow 'professionals'.

[wildannie]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: keep in mind that the Crows know exactly what happens with Zevran.  Even if you kill him or let him go, they know.

good point, I wonder how much they know in terms of detail though,  they know that he's 'gone rogue' but do they know any specific details of how this happened?

[ejoslin]

wildannie wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: keep in mind that the Crows know exactly what happens with Zevran.  Even if you kill him or let him go, they know.

good point, I wonder how much they know in terms of detail though,  they know that he's 'gone rogue' but do they know any specific details of how this happened?

Good question.  What strikes me, really, is if you let him go, they know it -- they know he's not dead.  What other details they know, I'm not sure; I wonder if someone actually survived the initial encounter and reported back (hard to believe but possible I suppose). 

With the merchant, Zevran may have had some lower ranking crows as well there.  He had a lot of mercenaries when he attacked you, and Taliesen had a pretty big ambush as well (though if Zevran leaves, he talks half of them into leaving).

[ejoslin]

I completely agree with ES that it was the situation, not lost love, that caused him to snap.

I think he thought he was in love but in truth, it was a very shallow thing, like all things in his life.

Here are two VO notes from two conversations:

When talking about Rinna: "the end of his unhappy story -- shaking his head that he had done something so terrible to one he loved"

When confessing his feelings: "embarassed that he knows nothing about love"

These don't really contradict each other, as with Rinna, he most likely is not in love when he's telling the warden that story (it appears for wardens who are romancing him at adore, though for friendzone wardens it appears much later).

Had he truly loved Rinna, in the sense of real love, his falling in love with the warden would not have been confusing. He may have withdrawn, he may have embraced it, but he would have understood what he was feeling.

Or I'm over-analyzing VO notes. Take your pick!

Edit: Formatting

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .