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[Giggles_Manically]

I wish we could have heard the speech in full because really we just get the end of it.

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Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Since the orders were being barked by a man who had lost control of rational thought, that was probably a pretty good time to complain.  

I know  ... I know, I'm becoming a big fan of Loghain's.  But there's no getting around the fact that he was a paranoid, delusional madman at that point.  I prefer Loghain after he came to his senses, which in my game usually only lasted minutes.

edited for typo 

So not going into this.

Suffice to say that imo, anyone who was not even half as worried as Loghain was about Orlais, has no sense at all about politics and shouldn't even be in the Landsmeet (note that Loghain did not even mention Orlais in that meeting at all). 

But that's all I have to say about that. I am too tired to go into that can of worms again.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
Since the orders were being barked by a man who had lost control of rational thought, that was probably a pretty good time to complain.  

I know  ... I know, I'm becoming a big fan of Loghain's.  But there's no getting around the fact that he was a paranoid, delusional madman at that point.  I prefer Loghain after he came to his senses, which in my game usually only lasted minutes.

edited for typo 

So not going into this.

Suffice to say that imo, anyone who was not even half as worried as Loghain was about Orlais, has no sense at all about politics and shouldn't even be in the Landsmeet (note that Loghain did not even mention Orlais in that meeting at all). 

But that's all I have to say about that. I am too tired to go into that can of worms again.

*pokes at KoP*

Ok, ok, it's probably for the best.  

[Giggles_Manically]

@KoP



Dont want to get on the Merry-go-Round again?

[tuppence95]

Cullen & Gilmore in Aeonar

[nos_astra]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Speaking of Teagan, why was he not at thee Landsmeet? He is a Bann after all like Alfstanna. But he was absent during that time.

The majority of the Landsmeet was absent if we take what we see in the game seriously.

[RagingCyclone]

hehe, reading KoP and Tupp sounds like a debate over who was better, Nero or Edward II.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nero was actually a decent emperor early on.



It was only later that he well went insane.

[CeboCabo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Nero was actually a decent emperor early on.

It was only later that he well went insane.

Yep...sounds like Loghain to me.

[tuppence95]

The only reason I jumped in and argued with KoP about Loghain was to counteract all the damage that  Rage and Schratty have been doing to my mind in cme's place.

[Giggles_Manically]

CeboCabo wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Nero was actually a decent emperor early on.

It was only later that he well went insane.

Yep...sounds like Loghain to me.

Except that Loghain never slept with his mother, or was haunted by her.
Or kept people locked in a arena while he played his own music to them.

Nero's final words are also scary:
What an artist dies with me, or What an artist the world is losing.

Poor bastard was never cut out to rule, and was much more like Cailan. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

RagingCyclone wrote...

hehe, reading KoP and Tupp sounds like a debate over who was better, Nero or Edward II.

How?

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think Alistair, despite his "good heart" and all those other things that somehow are supposed to make one efficient at being a king (makes me chuckle), will be at the very best, a decent king (bordering on mediocre) that history will barely take notice of.

This. It took me a while to see, but this is a very likely outcome.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
As for Teagan. I have very little respect for him and to me, he is like every other bann out there. Thinks he is important, when in reality he is just an overglorified landowner, who thinks the best time to complain about following orders is when the darkspawn are on his doorsteps. I'd rather trust Eamon.

While I don't agree with blindly following someone who doesn't seem to have much political instinct, I agree that he doesn't appear to be much of a politician and jumps onto the Warden bandwagon far too readily. I prefer Eamon to Teagan.

Teagan is a nice guy, but like Alistair I don't think he's a political genius.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[rak72]

They revealed a new DA2 character for the preorder DLC. He's pretty sexy, has a nice voice too!

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Teagan is a nice guy, but like Alistair I don't think he's a political genius.

Let's be frank. Ferelden almost has no one with political savvy except Eamon and Anora (and a rivalry between the two is hinted at). The rest are just there with their titles and meaningless lands who pretend they understand what they are talking about.

Time for Ferelden to have a proper administration and centralised bureaucracy with trained individuals who merit their position (hello university! I hope Anora is thinking about this), and stop relying on the farce that is the Landsmeet.

[Glorfindel709]

Is Orlais a threat? Definitely. It's an imperialistic foreign power with a relatively weak neighbor who also now has a Blight to deal with. The smart thing for them to do would be either A) bring in the 4 legions of Chevaliers and Orlesian Grey Wardens under the guise of stopping the blight and never leave, OR let the Blight ravage Ferelden and during that time gather up a coalition of nations to sweep down into Ferelden and when they win, claim the Blighted country as their own. In a post Blight Ferelden it's even more important that they have a savvy political leader who will be able to manuveur them through all the offers of "aid" that will only pile on a high debt to the Orlesians and get the nation back to a point of stability that it's able to defend itself from foreign attack.



That being said, Loghain took his paranoia beyond justifiable means when he decided that the loss of an entire army and a civil war were necessary sacrifices to ensure their protection when it infact nearly crippled the country he was trying to save.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
That being said, Loghain took his paranoia beyond justifiable means when he decided that the loss of an entire army and a civil war were necessary sacrifices to ensure their protection when it infact nearly crippled the country he was trying to save.

That assume that he wanted a civil war when the cutscene with Howe made it clear that he didn't.

Yes, Loghain was stupid in how he delt with the bannorn though I can understand him. Idiots like the banns are not meant to have any power or armies and are supposed to follow orders. In fact the entire system makes no sense at all. But the reality is, they do have power and armies and they can't be commanded. He should have been more subtle and calculating when dealing with them and not so military like.

But that's a political failure, not something that Loghain decided for him to think it was necessary in the first place.

It also assumes that this was the only reason for the civil war and Loghain carries the sole responsability, while all my personal experience and my historical knowledge point that civil wars are NEVER started by one faction and rarely for one reason. The Ferelden civil war implicates a whole mess of reasons, some hinted at in the game itself.
Could Loghain have alleviated it had he acted differently? Yes. Do I think he  "started it" or was the only one responsable for it? No.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 janvier 2011 - 06:01 .

[Glorfindel709]

Oh I never meant to say that he was the sole reason it started. But the way he dealt with the situation laid the groundwork for the Oppositions grievances

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Oh I never meant to say that he was the sole reason it started. But the way he dealt with the situation laid the groundwork for the Oppositions grievances

I see it as the spark. But only the spark.

One of my favorite quotes in the game:
"The civil war brought many old grudges to a boil" - Ignacio.

[inclemency]

Someone in Awakening said that Loghein's turning back the Orlesians at the border got Celene's 'knickers in a twist'

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain represents one of Sun Tzu's most important principals:

A general should never try and be a politician, and a politician should never try to be a general.

[Merilsell]

Skyl4rk wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

If I had the option, I would let Eamon die and convince Teagan to take up the Arling every time. He's the one who organizes the entire civil war against Loghain in the first place, so he's not without his allies in the Bannorn and if proof is brought forward about the poisoning of Arl Eamon he could possibly gain the very same allies and maybe even additional sympathies of Banns and Arls, provided of course that he's willing to honor deals Eamon made.

Ive been considering taking that route in my FF but *shrugs*

Agreed, the spirit during the Gauntlet was one of the most powerful moments in the game for me.

This^^  It just makes perfect sense considering your Warden is already too busy gathering an army for the Blight.   And going on a quest to search for a relic that's only rumoured to be true is a complete waste of time.  Not that I'm bashing that particular quest - you wouldn't have gone through that emotionally engaging scene at the Gauntlet. But, it would've been nice to have that option to have Teagan take Eamon's place.

Same here.I have been pondering the option of letting Teagan take over Eamon's place in my FF as well, because I don't see a sensible reason why Lenya would make that senseless race for a wastebin of a dead woman to save a human man that treated the man she loves like mabari sh*t. Anyway, the Gauntlet scene (Tamlen ) and the overall plot plans overruled this first thoughts. So Eamon is allowed to live within it now...but he will suffer at Lenya's glare o' doom. A lot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain represents one of Sun Tzu's most important principals:
A general should never try and be a politician, and a politician should never try to be a general.

Eh, there are exceptions to this. I think some great leaders were both good generals and good politicians at the same time.

But in general, they are distinct yes.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain represents one of Sun Tzu's most important principals:
A general should never try and be a politician, and a politician should never try to be a general.

Eh, there are exceptions to this. I think some great leaders were both good generals and good politicians at the same time.

But in general, they are distinct yes.

The way it was said in Art of War though:
A true general lacks the precsion and the gentleness that is needed to be a great politician.
A true politician is not good at making the hard choices and commanding people to do what is needed in war.

Although Sun Tzu thought that the best generals would do what they felt was the best in the field and ignore politics, while a politician would let a general do what they needed to, while they focused on things outside of the war.  

You know I think I should read the Art of War again, or should have mailed Cailan a copy. But knowing him he would have mistaken it for a coloring book. <_<

[Addai]

KoP won't like me for this, but IMO Anora is at best a mediocre politician, too. She can scheme and has respect that is mostly the offshine of the men who brought her to power, but she shows no backbone in the lead-up to the game plot and unless paired with a strong king, isn't exactly a stellar ruler. IMO she puts herself first which is her main problem. She has some education and is willing to stab people in the back. I guess that qualifies her politically more than Alistair, but whoopee. Ferelden works best when there are people cooperating in rule. It's not an autocratic country and shouldn't ever be. That is its strength. It might always be "backward" to the countries that care about empire, but so the **** what.