39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

I think that there has to be some impact or else why bother importing? They could just not mention the choice or have someone really out of the loop asking Hawke about what happened after Cailan died.

[Addai]

With the "world at war," I suspect we might see either a King Alistair or GW Alistair with a Fereldan army.

[FFZero]

King Alistair I can understand leading an army but Warden Alistair? I can't really see it, not that I'll be complaining if that happens.

[Sarah1281]

Well, Warden-Alistair (should he be with the country) would be with the Arling of Amaranthine, right? GWs are officially connected with the defense of Ferelden now.

[tuppence95]

I sure hope that importing our games into DA2 will have more impact than ... was it Golems of A?  One of the DLCs hyped that we would see the affects of our game, and all we got was a messenger at the very beginning who mentioned who was King of Orzammar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Really I think the game is set up so that no matter which ruler you choose, it works out to about the same outcome, and it becomes a matter of player preference and/or roleplay factors.

This.

Kind of like how regardless of who's the ruler, the wardens are always given Amaranthine. The game sort of makes them both play out the same way in the end, with only minor differences.

Addai67 wrote...
I'm sure that depends entirely on if you're an elf or not.  LOL  

Too true.

Unfortuantely and that's what making me think twice before getting DA2. Because honestly, I am kind of annoyed. Our choices have been made almost completely irrelevent.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Food riots amongst the elves who are mostly irrelevent in the larger scheme of things.

I'm sure that depends entirely on if you're an elf or not.  LOL

Not really.

Anyone, with sufficient reasoning and impartiality can come to the conclusion that they, their families and possibly their ethnic group are not that significant in the larger scheme of things. I do that all the time.

It doesn't mean they should stop caring or resisting or even care about the wellfare of others. But impartially speaking, the good of Ferelden is not dependent on the wellfare of the elves, except perhaps very marginally. I think any elf with sufficient understanding and awareness can come to realize this.  Doesn't mean he / she has to accept this reality. 

Addai67 wrote...
 she's choosing to make the lower classes
feel the pain rather than, say, raising taxes on the nobility and
endangering herself politically.  I think it's a sign that Anora puts
herself and her own power first in most cases. 

What you said here is that Anora is smart and not stupid. Seriously, that's what you said.

Any good ruler doesn't compromise their position unless absolutely necessary. Lest they not only risk their lives but also the entire system that might collapse causing even more deaths.

So you are suggesting that rulers should set up reforms that are completely unrealistic and unfeasible, by antagonizing all the banns, just so that you can be sure that they are not in it for themselves? Seriously?

As much as I disrespect the banns, I think what Origins showed is that keeping them on your good side is not only a smart political move, it's also necessary to keep Ferelden from falling apart. Nothing would make me happier than if all of them disapeared one day with no bad consequences, but that won't happen. So in the mean time, they have to be appeased, until they are out-maneuvered. Then, they can be disposed of and thrown into the garbage of history.

So yes, seeing how taxing the banns too much is unfeasible, the price of civilization has to be extracted from somewhere else. I see no other alternatives than the elves and I think it's an acceptable price to pay. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:07 .

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Food riots amongst the elves who are mostly irrelevent in the larger scheme of things.

I'm sure that depends entirely on if you're an elf or not.  LOL

Not really.

Anyone, with sufficient reasoning and impartiality can come to the conclusion that they, their families and possibly their ethnic group are not that significant in the larger scheme of things. I do that all the time.

It doesn't mean they should stop caring or resisting or even care about the wellfare of others. But impartially speaking, the good of Ferelden is not dependent on the wellfare of the elves, except perhaps very marginally. I think any elf with sufficient understanding and awareness can come to realize this.  Doesn't mean he / she has to accept this reality. 

I really don't understand what you are saying here.

If I am an elf should I just lay down and allow myself to be clubbed to death together with the rest of my family because I and my family contribute nothing to the good of Ferelden? (or so some 'humans' may think)

Should I immigrate?  Like Marx or Einstein did and make my contribution to a more grateful society than my society of origin?

Should I rebel and take a few Fereldans with me before I am struck down?

Please advise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Not really.

Anyone, with sufficient reasoning and impartiality can come to the conclusion that they, their families and possibly their ethnic group are not that significant in the larger scheme of things. I do that all the time.

It doesn't mean they should stop caring or resisting or even care about the wellfare of others. But impartially speaking, the good of Ferelden is not dependent on the wellfare of the elves, except perhaps very marginally. I think any elf with sufficient understanding and awareness can come to realize this.  Doesn't mean he / she has to accept this reality. 

I really don't understand what you are saying here.

If I am an elf should I just lay down and allow myself to be clubbed to death together with the rest of my family because I and my family contribute nothing to the good of Ferelden? (or so some 'humans' may think)

Should I immigrate?  Like Marx or Einstein did and make my contribution to a more grateful society than my society of origin?

Should I rebel and take a few Fereldans with me before I am struck down?

Please advise.

See bolded. I didn't say they have to sit and eat the crap they are being fed.

However they really have little alternatives. Ferelden ranks as the best place for the elves despite everything. What I would advise them to do is perseverance and not to try rebel violently because they will always be crushed.

And either wait unti lthe elves become an important labour force that has a political leverage. Or for some other external event that will pressure the government to consider their wellfare.
They can resort to armed rebellion if they want to make a lot of noise but consider how they are all confined in a few places and can easily be destroyed, I wouldnt' see the point. They can't wage a guerilla campaign in the country side.

So just like the elves needed Andraste to free themselves, here they also need an external factor. So the best thing to do is simply wait.

Definately not happy for them and I won't presume that it's ideal for them. But that's the side reality, they are not integral at all to the wellfare of Ferleden in the short run. Maybe later, when Ferelden starts developping and starts requiring more and more cheap labour, can the elves become more important (something I am counting on in fact).

[Maria13]

Perhaps they should wait to be assisted by a half Elven prince?

Clue:

Modifié par Maria13, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

Perhaps they should wait to be assisted by a half Elven prince?

Sure, that would be the best for them (assuming that there won't be a backlash that some deleted epilogue slides hint at, like assassination of the elven bann). Will it be the best for Ferelden?
I have my doubts.

But like I said, my main concern is Ferelden as a whole and as such, the elves do not rank high on my priority list.
I do however envision a Ferelden where elves can be given opportunity to show their merit, but that will take time.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:41 .

[Maria13]

It happens, Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated too...

Modifié par Maria13, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Not really.

Anyone, with sufficient reasoning and impartiality can come to the conclusion that they, their families and possibly their ethnic group are not that significant in the larger scheme of things. I do that all the time.

It doesn't mean they should stop caring or resisting or even care about the wellfare of others. But impartially speaking, the good of Ferelden is not dependent on the wellfare of the elves, except perhaps very marginally. I think any elf with sufficient understanding and awareness can come to realize this.  Doesn't mean he / she has to accept this reality. 

I don't get it.  What segment of the population is significant then?  You say this just because they are part of the underclass?  The poor are always with us, it's true, but they provide cheap labor and are often more upwardly mobile if given freedom and opportunities for advancement than the privileged classes.

But I'd probably need to understand more where you are coming from.  Social Darwinism?  Pessimism about elven-human relations?

So yes, seeing how taxing the banns too much is unfeasible, the price of civilization has to be extracted from somewhere else. I see no other alternatives than the elves and I think it's an acceptable price to pay. 

Ferelden already is civilized.  Yes, it can be marginally approved, but outside the alienage you don't see people dying in the streets.  Basic infrastructure is sound.  It seems to be able to feed itself with some surplus in most years.  It can maintain self-defense.  Really, the only difference I can see between Ferelden and Orlais or Ferelden and Antiva is that Ferelden lacks the large, useless, paternalistic nobility who have nothing better to do than kill each other and wallow in decadence (and invade other countries, in the case of Orlais).

Modifié par Addai67, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I sense a great off topic in the thread.....

[Tigress M]

Completely change of subject here, but we haven't had nearly enough Ali pics today.

Seriously handsome or handsomely serious? Either way, this boy rocks!



And now I'm off to sneak a peek at Celea's first night with our favorite ex-Templar. *Woot!*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't get it.  What segment of the population is significant then?  You say this just because they are part of the underclass?  The poor are always with us, it's true, but they provide cheap labor and are often more upwardly mobile if given freedom and opportunities for advancement than the privileged classes.

This is not solely a class thing. This is an ethnic divide. The elves are a tiny minority. As such they are easier targets and their wellfare is not necessary for the good of the country as a whole, at least in the short term. In the long term, their situation inevitably needs to be fixed, because having purges every decade is not proper, though that is primarily due to the overpopulation of Denerim (hence I propose moving many elves elsewhere, by force if necessary). 

The part of the population that is the most significant is the middle class.
Ferelden needs to focus on them first, the elves later. Much later.

Addai67 wrote...
But I'd probably need to understand more where you are coming from.  Social Darwinism?  Pessimism about elven-human relations?

Neither.
Just the reality that development always, ALWAYS, has winners and losers and we ought to make sure that the losers are in a position of weakness that they can't destabalize the system. And we need to make sure that the winners are those crucial to the survival and advancement of the country. It's simple as that.  

Is it "fair"? I don't know and I don't presume to care. The general wellfare of the nation as a whole supercedes, in my view, the wellfare of a tiny minority.

 Ferelden lacks the large, useless, paternalistic nobility who have nothing better to do than kill each other and wallow in decadence.

.....

Codex: "No person has ever sat upon the throne of Ferelden without first winning the approval of the Bannorn. Queen Fionne, who had the misfortune to take the throne in the eighteenth year of the Steel Age, wrote of the
Bannorn, "There have been three wars this year fought over elopements. Five fought over wool. And one started by an apple tree. It isn't even winter yet. Who would believe that these same banns, now trying so hard to kill one another, just last year united to give me the crown?""

....you were saying?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

It happens, Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated too...

Because I am sure the USA then was very similar to Ferelden.

Different situations all together. I am sure there had been hundreds of people like him before who were killed and history didn't notice. Because the circumstances of the time did not favor their emancipation. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Because I am sure the USA then was very similar to Ferelden.

Well, 1960's USA had sucky food, people smelled bad, and armed lunatics roamed the nation's capital and had public sex with complete strangers, so....

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Because I am sure the USA then was very similar to Ferelden.

Well, 1960's USA had sucky food, people smelled bad, and armed lunatics roamed the nation's capital and had public sex with complete strangers, so....

Other wise known as the good old days to some people.

[inclemency]

People smelled bad in the 1960s? what?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

inclemency wrote...

People smelled bad in the 1960s? what?

Yeah, you know. The hippies? Plus, alot of the popular colognes back then were nauseating.

My mom talked about it like it was the Golden Age of Humanity, my grandmother as a sign the End Times were near.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

It happens, Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated too...

Because I am sure the USA then was very similar to Ferelden.

Different situations all together. I am sure there had been hundreds of people like him before who were killed and history didn't notice. Because the circumstances of the time did not favor their emancipation. 

But this is similar to the elves, I did not say that the Elven Bann was the only elf assassinated I was hinting that he was because he was a figurehead...  And the same has happened throughout history.  Very often the first people who put their head over the parapet for their ethnic group or their religion are promptly done away with...

[inclemency]

Guess my family had a different experience of the '60s. As far as perfumes go back then ....Bal a Versailles, White Shoulders, Je Reviens, I remember my mother having old bottles of them when I was a kid, they weren't horrible.



Some Alistair...

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is not solely a class thing. This is an ethnic divide. The elves are a tiny minority. As such they are easier targets and their wellfare is not necessary for the good of the country as a whole, at least in the short term. In the long term, their situation inevitably needs to be fixed, because having purges every decade is not proper, though that is primarily due to the overpopulation of Denerim (hence I propose moving many elves elsewhere, by force if necessary). 

The part of the population that is the most significant is the middle class.
Ferelden needs to focus on them first, the elves later. Much later.

It's true that some of the elves' condition is enforced by cultural prejudice and by the Chantry.  The crown could begin to alleviate some of this, however.  I would question how good the "civilizing" process is if it only reinforces xenophobic stereotypes.  There are different kinds of advancement.

Elves are skilled when given training, have a strong internal social structure, and may have some physical advantages when other factors are equal (nutrition and sanitation).  Not developing them as a resource is foolhardy.  Not to get too much into RL history and politics, but the Romans and later the Muslim empires owed some of their prestige and success to appropriating the Greek and Jewish underclasses and using their strengths.  These were different than elves in that they tended to be educated, but with minimal investment you could implement education in the tightly knit social fabric of the elves a lot more easily than among Ferelden's rural underclass.

....you were saying?

Oh sure, they have useless nobility.  But look at what we learn about the noble class of other nations.  50% more uselessness for your sovereign!

It will be interesting to learn more about Tevinter.  There, at least, the ruling class seems to have a bit of a meritocratic element since you have to be a mage, and presumably educated, to rule.

[Schratty]

Some Alistair and Strom love. Just because.