39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That would call into question Morrigan's sexuality, since another female is involved, and Morrigan would have to be intrigued by it. With Alistair, you have two females, probably mutually going at it as well, so his sexuality remains strictly females. No conflict there.

Which again, if they wanted to make a fan service, they would have made Morrigan bisexual or not resistant to the idea of a threesome with a woman.

I am pretty sure that most boys' fantasies are women who are straight, yet don't mind to have threesomes with another girl.

[RagingCyclone]

rak72 wrote...

Rage - How exactly did Zevran know about Wynn's sleeping attire?
@KoP - I agree with Errant - fan service

He's sneaky like that, and probably was horrified when he found out in the first place.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
There's a big difference between Isabella and Morrigan. He doesn't hate Isabella. Yes, he has sex (if you choose to ask him to do so) with Isabella, but he's not all that displeased about it. He's VERY displeased with the idea of sleeping with Morrigan.

That's not what you said initially, in the post I was responding to. You simply said Alsitair can't have sex with someone he doesn't have feelings for. 

errant_knight wrote...
And yes, he does that for the warden, too. He's very resistant. Physically, there was obviously no problem, and I'm not one of those who thinks he was scarred for life by the experience, or even for a week, but that doesn't equate to enjoying the experience mentally or emotionally.

He's not very resistant. Slightly relunctant at best.
And I see nothing at all about him having any emotional or mental distate after doing it. And seeing how Alistair never hides his feelings (and something you girls love him for), that's evidence that he enjoyed it mentally as well.
I sincerily doubt he was just there doing it like a chore.

And if I can be bothered, I'd even try to imagine the details. I can't.

errant_knight wrote...
I think the thing is, you can't imagine anyone NOT wanting to be with Morrigan, KoP. You're a bit biased on that.

Not at all, I am very glad that Alistair does not want Morrigan. Other than for the fact that he is not worthy enough to even want her, everything I respect Morrigan for is opposed to Alistair's beliefs / thoughts / mantra.  So no problem from me at all. 

No, I never said that Alistair can't have sex with someone he doesn't have feelings for. Not in any of my posts.

Alistair talks about some things freely, other thing, not so much. And he can't even bring himself to use actual words for what he did with Morrigan.  It's not something he wants to chat about at all. I really don't know where you're getting the 'Alistair is happy with it.' It doesn't seem indicated to me. At the same time, we clearly see somethings in these conversations differently. I stand by my statement of 'Alistair is very resistant.'

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:56 .

[Jon Jern_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
boys' fantasies

lol

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Really?

The only thing he said afterwards is that they worry about the darkspawn.
I see nothing that implies that he is emotionally hurt or dissatisfied. And I find it hard to believe that he was mentally neutral and indifferent (and that's almost twice as bad).

As for convincing him.
He says "I am a weak weak man. So I guess I'll have to play along".

Now you can literally believe that he is a weakling that can be bossed around (ironic that he shows more backbone when unhardened). Or that it\\\\'s moe liely an excuse / joke. 

There's alot of instances where Alistair unhardened has more backbone in pursuing what he feels is right. Hardened doesn't necessarily give him a backbone, it simply makes him more cynical and self-interested, where as before, he was not. Which, in turn, are traits that make him potentially a better ruler than idealistic Alistair.

[Zjarcal]

rak72 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

So if a character does something the player doesn't like, it's fan service?

No, I just makes no sense for his character.  Mister - you're the first, I want you to be the last, I want to be in love before there is any nookie.  And the whole "rats" comment is suggesting that he is dissapointed that the warden didn't give him a free cheating pass whenever Izzyb's ship pulls into port. 

I would say that's him being sarcastic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No, I never said that Alistair can't have sex with someone he doesn't have feelings for. Not in any of my posts.

errant_knight wrote...
So...you remember that you're talking about
Alistair, right? A man who preferred to remain a virgin rather than have
sex with someone he didn't have feelings for?

This seems to imply so. But by "can't", I took it to mean that he absolutely wouldn't out of principle. Not that he physically can't.

Alistair talks about some things freely, other thing, not so much. And he can't even bring himself to use actual words for what he did with Morrigan.  It's not something he wants to chat about at all. I really don't know where you're getting the 'Alistair is happy with it.' It doesn't seem indicated to me. At the same time, we clearly see somethings in these conversations differently. I stand by my statement of 'Alistair is very resistant.'

Ok what are we talking about?
The DR or Isabela?

I was talking abou Isabela.

Obviously he hates doing it with Morigan and is very resistant to it. Not with Isabela.

I am doing Alistair a favor here. I find it hard to believe that unhardened Alsitair has more backbone, while Alsitair is being pusy-whiped into doing something he doesn't want to do. 

[LadyDamodred]

See, this is how I look at it.



With Isabela, it seems OOC for me because hardened Alistair does stand up for himself and he will do things he considerd dishonorable to keep the woman he loves. (ie, cheating on his wife) My first inclination is that Alistair would also reject Isabela like he does when unhardened. On the other hand, it might also be this newfound willingness to buck certain mores he has that allows him to do it. I can see it either way, but it would make far more sense to me if you had to work a little harder to persuade him.



With Morrigan, he might hate her, but look at what he's getting out of it. He gets to ensure that the person he cares about (lover, friend, etc...) gets to live. He might hate Morrigan, but this is a one time thing. He'll never have go through it again, and it had benefits. It can be quite easy to put soemthing out of your mind in those situations.



KoP: You say everything you respect Morrigan for is opposed to what Alistair thinks and believes. Does that extend to the fact that both of them do something they dislike/hate for the sake of saving the person they love?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
There's alot of instances where Alistair unhardened has more backbone in pursuing what he feels is right. Hardened doesn't necessarily give him a backbone, it simply makes him more cynical and self-interested, where as before, he was not. Which, in turn, are traits that make him potentially a better ruler than idealistic Alistair.

So Errant and others who value Alsitair's principles should really stick with unhardened, as evidently he is more principled.

And yes I agree. It makes him more self-centered. Marginally better than unhardened at being king. 
Self-interest is vital, but far from being the only thing required.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
KoP: You say everything you respect Morrigan for is opposed to what Alistair thinks and believes. Does that extend to the fact that both of them do something they dislike/hate for the sake of saving the person they love?

A hyperbole, not every single tiny thing. The general character.

And what does Morrigan do that she dislikes to save her love's life? She wanted the DR before and she wants it more to save her love's life, but the desire had always been there.

What are you referring to?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:06 .

[Yankee23]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He's not very resistant. Slightly relunctant at best.
And I see nothing at all about him having any emotional or mental distate after doing it. And seeing how Alistair never hides his feelings (and something you girls love him for), that's evidence that he enjoyed it mentally as well.

Perhaps if we were allowed to talk to him about it afterwards we would see some regret/distaste, etc...

Really?

The only thing he said afterwards is that they worry about the darkspawn.
I see nothing that implies that he is emotionally hurt or dissatisfied. And I find it hard to believe that he was mentally neutral and indifferent (and that's almost twice as bad).

As for convincing him.
He says "I am a weak weak man. So I guess I'll have to play along".

Now you can literally believe that he is a weakling that can be bossed around (ironic that he shows more backbone when unhardened). Or that it's more likely an excuse / joke. 

Lol, I was talking about the DR, not Isabela.

[Zjarcal]

I see I'm not the only who's gotten severely confused between the DR and the threesome...

[Jon Jern_]

Maybe I'm not thinking too much into hardening... But come on. It changes a total of, what, like two scenarios? I do it every single time because it seems like the best outcome for him. I'm not one to read between the lines or fanfic anything, just giving out my (poor) two cents.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh sorry, seems like I was the one who got confused. Apologies to errant.

Yes yes it's obvious he hated doing it with Morrigan. That's not in dispute.

[_Somebody]

I apologize, I think I started all this.

[Jon Jern_]

Not a bad thing.

[rak72]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Because there is no way to fundementally change Morrigan's personality.

If the idea was fan service, they would have made Morrigan accept it by default.
And seeing how the majority of gamers are drooling idiot boys (who rant about Morrigan refusing to have sex, not understanding what's it about), if they wanted to make fan service, they would have made Morrigan want it.

Excellent point.

Really, the demographic that would've enjoyed the idea of the threesome the most is the crowd that usually goes after Morrigan or Leliana (just to be clear, I'm not saying that EVERYONE who romances Morrigan or Leliana is part of that demographic).

With Alistair's fans, it's probably the opposite, as evidenced by the reactions in this thread. So I really fail to see how it's fan service.

Good point.  I think, maybe, the writers THOUGHT they were doing fan service.  Maybe they thought the guys would be like, "hehe, Alistair is cool, he's doin 2 chicks at once".  But I just think they realy messed up on that one.  Skadi makes a good point with Morigan.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
There's alot of instances where Alistair unhardened has more backbone in pursuing what he feels is right. Hardened doesn't necessarily give him a backbone, it simply makes him more cynical and self-interested, where as before, he was not. Which, in turn, are traits that make him potentially a better ruler than idealistic Alistair.

So Errant and others who value Alsitair's principles should really stick with unhardened, as evidently he is more principled.

And yes I agree. It makes him more self-centered. Marginally better than unhardened at being king. 
Self-interest is vital, but far from being the only thing required.

I don't see agreeing more readily to a political marriage, for instance (as he does when hardened) as being self-centered.  He's more open-minded than when unhardened- same thing applies to Isabela and the mistress deal.  Taking his responsibilities as king more seriously is also hardly self-centered.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:10 .

[rak72]

Zjarcal wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

So if a character does something the player doesn't like, it's fan service?

No, I just makes no sense for his character.  Mister - you're the first, I want you to be the last, I want to be in love before there is any nookie.  And the whole "rats" comment is suggesting that he is dissapointed that the warden didn't give him a free cheating pass whenever Izzyb's ship pulls into port. 

I would say that's him being sarcastic.

It didn't sound sarcastic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...
Good point.  I think, maybe, the writers THOUGHT they were doing fan service.  Maybe they thought the guys would be like, "hehe, Alistair is cool, he's doin 2 chicks at once".  But I just think they realy messed up on that one.  Skadi makes a good point with Morigan.

Being male, I can try to search my inner boyism and the probable reaction to that would be alpha male wannabe tendency and jealousy towards alsitair doing 2 chicks at once, whereas the Warden can't do it with Morrigan. 

So eh, I doubt it.

[rak72]

RagingCyclone wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Rage - How exactly did Zevran know about Wynn's sleeping attire?
@KoP - I agree with Errant - fan service

He's sneaky like that, and probably was horrified when he found out in the first place.

I think he's the one that got her into that.

[errant_knight]

Somebody wrote...

I apologize, I think I started all this.

Yeah, and you know, when you asked, I thought "Oh, crap...." When you've been around a little longer, you'll learn what to ask by PM, not to worry.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



So Errant and others who value Alsitair's principles should really stick with unhardened, as evidently he is more principled.

Depends. Some see Alistair as trading his idealism and principles to become more interested in his own wants and desires, instead of following a more selfless personal code.

And yes I agree. It makes him more self-centered. A marginally better than unhardened at being king. 
Self-interest is vital, but far from being the only thing required.

Certainly. But it is a step. And he does at least show some wisdom, if hardened, in defering to Anora in many political matters, if married to her. There are definitely more than just "marginal" changes in Alistair's ability to rule, when hardened.

Of course, I've always felt something rather special dies in Alistair when hardened, and its another reason I prefer Anora as queen.

I remember that, in one possible epilogue someone posted, that unhardened Alistair, if he doesn't have high approval with the Warden, ends up leaving the order and going elsewhere because he is discovering he doesn't mesh well with Warden ethos. Which I thought was actually a pretty good epilogue for him.

[Jon Jern_]

Hey look, my avatar finally uploaded. Slowest week of my life.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh sorry, seems like I was the one who got confused. Apologies to errant.
Yes yes it's obvious he hated doing it with Morrigan. That's not in dispute.

Heh, no problem! I'm confused now, though.