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[Addai]

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He's not very resistant. Slightly relunctant at best.
And I see nothing at all about him having any emotional or mental distate after doing it. And seeing how Alistair never hides his feelings (and something you girls love him for), that's evidence that he enjoyed it mentally as well.

Perhaps if we were allowed to talk to him about it afterwards we would see some regret/distaste, etc...

Er, he doesn't sound very resistant or regretful to me.

I think it's not something that would occur to him unless his lover brought it up, but as long as she is happy with it, he's willing to have his horizons broadened.    It's totally dependent on the Warden.  Alistair is hardly a fixed personality, after all.  He can change as all people do.  If his lover is a free spirit, he's bound to be influenced by it somewhat.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't see agreeing more readily to a political marriage, for instance (as he does when hardened) as being self-centered.  He's more open-minded than when unhardened- same thing applies to Isabela and the mistress deal.  Taking his responsibilities as king more seriously is also hardly self-centered.

Why and how not?
By self-centered, I don't mean he'll be a brat like Cailan. The fact that he wants to take being a king seriously, is due to him being more self-centered or having the capacity to act on his self-centeredness (wch I have argued in the past had always been there). Even when in a political marriage with Anora, he makes it clear that he doesn't want to be a pawn or tool and that Anora will not get her way (a good attitude, if lacking other components, like Anora's intelligence)

I am not arguing that his self-centeredness is a bad hting. Just that he lacks the maturity with it. But his maturity level is evidently higher than say Cailan.  But that's another dioscussion and haopefully for another time.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
KoP: You say everything you respect Morrigan for is opposed to what Alistair thinks and believes. Does that extend to the fact that both of them do something they dislike/hate for the sake of saving the person they love?

A hyperbole, not every single tiny thing. The general character.

And what does Morrigan do that she dislikes to save her love's life? She wanted the DR before and she wants it more to save her love's life, but the desire had always been there.

What are you referring to?

I'm referring to the fact that she will leave the Warden, despite the fact that she's fallen in love and is clearly upset about it.  Unless you disagree that doing that is something she actually hates doing?

[rak72]

Cute, Jon

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Certainly. But it is a step. And he does at least show some wisdom, if hardened, in defering to Anora in many political matters, if married to her. There are definitely more than just "marginal" changes in Alistair's ability to rule, when hardened.

Meh, I get the feeling that he'll oppose her more, especially if Loghain is alive. He says as much in the game practically.

If the Warden is Chancellor, hardened Alsitair defers to him regardless. He makes more effort to rule indepdently udner Eamon, but I don't see him outmanevuring Eamon in the hsort future, or ever. Despite everything, Alistair seems infatuated with the old man and I don't see that changing. Eamon is too good and subtle to give him the opportunity to change. 

[Jon Jern_]

Thank you. I love Sara Kerrigan.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't see agreeing more readily to a political marriage, for instance (as he does when hardened) as being self-centered.  He's more open-minded than when unhardened- same thing applies to Isabela and the mistress deal.  Taking his responsibilities as king more seriously is also hardly self-centered.

Why and how not?
By self-centered, I don't mean he'll be a brat like Cailan. The fact that he wants to take being a king seriously, is due to him being more self-centered or having the capacity to act on his self-centeredness (wch I have argued in the past had always been there). Even when in a political marriage with Anora, he makes it clear that he doesn't want to be a pawn or tool and that Anora will not get her way (a good attitude, if lacking other components, like Anora's intelligence)

I am not arguing that his self-centeredness is a bad hting. Just that he lacks the maturity with it. But his maturity level is evidently higher than say Cailan.  But that's another dioscussion and haopefully for another time.

He agrees to the political marriage because it's the right thing to do, not because he wants it for himself.  Likewise the kingship is still not something he personally wants.  He says "make me king, Anora is not an option, someone has to end the Blight".  He's thinking of duty and sacrifice still, though in the case of accepting a mistress it is more of a personal happiness deal.

We'll have to disagree, of course, that he lacks maturity or intelligence.    He hasn't had Anora's training, that's all.  For all that, she has other drawbacks which we will not get into here!

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I'm referring to the fact that she will leave the Warden, despite the fact that she's fallen in love and is clearly upset about it.  Unless you disagree that doing that is something she actually hates doing?

She's not doing it to save his life.

She does it because she believe it is necessary. That she needs to train the OGB in isolation and alone, for whatever reason.
She didn't leave to protect the Warden. It might have been a factor at play, but certainly not the main one, she leaves even if she hates the Warden.

[Yankee23]

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He's not very resistant. Slightly relunctant at best.
And I see nothing at all about him having any emotional or mental distate after doing it. And seeing how Alistair never hides his feelings (and something you girls love him for), that's evidence that he enjoyed it mentally as well.

Perhaps if we were allowed to talk to him about it afterwards we would see some regret/distaste, etc...

Er, he doesn't sound very resistant or regretful to me.

I think it's not something that would occur to him unless his lover brought it up, but as long as she is happy with it, he's willing to have his horizons broadened.    It's totally dependent on the Warden.  Alistair is hardly a fixed personality, after all.  He can change as all people do.  If his lover is a free spirit, he's bound to be influenced by it somewhat.

[snip]

I think we're all confused, lol. That was about the DR not Isabela.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
He agrees to the political marriage because it's the right thing to do, not because he wants it for himself.  Likewise the kingship is still not something he personally wants.  He says "make me king, Anora is not an option, someone has to end the Blight".  He's thinking of duty and sacrifice still, though in the case of accepting a mistress it is more of a personal happiness deal.

How is he being self-centered means that every single decision is him being that? That's not what I said. And I'll remind you that it's the Warden who convinces him to marry Anora. He doesn't come up with the idea and  if I remember correctly, isn't enthusiastic about it (understandably so). But that's besides the point, I didn't use this as evidence that he is self-centered.

Oh and "someone has to end the blight". Now it's him.
But when Loghain is spared, that's no longer him, that's someone else.

[LadyDamodred]

So we clearly disagree with the Morrigan in the scenario where she loves/cares for the Warden. I think the reasons she does it change as her relationship with the Warden evolves. No kidding she leaves if she hates the Warden. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the regret and sorrow she displays, the fact that her plan now hurts her in some (to my mind, pretty big) way.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Addai]

Yankee23 wrote...

I think we're all confused, lol. That was about the DR not Isabela.

Oh, derp! I do think he is worried about the DR.  He says that very thing at the post-coronation.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Meh, I get the feeling that he'll oppose her more, especially if Loghain is alive. He says as much in the game practically.

That's if Loghain lives. Otherwise, if he dies, the relationship is quite amicable, and I didn't get that line, either. It is only if Loghain is spared, dead or alive, that he is antagonistic towards Anora. She is, after all, the one who plead like mad for Loghain's life.

If the Warden is Chancellor, hardened Alsitair defers to him regardless. He makes more effort to rule indepdently udner Eamon, but I don't see him outmanevuring Eamon in the hsort future, or ever. Despite everything, Alistair seems infatuated with the old man and I don't see that changing. Eamon is too good and subtle to give him the opportunity to change. 

Whether he does or doesn't isn't the issue. When hardened, the fact is, he takes being king more seriously and actively. I don't think anyone's arguing that Alistair is a political genuis or possesed of Anora's cunning and capability. But he certainly is not a disasterous king, and does a good enough job at it. Whatever his reasons are irrelevant to my point.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh and "someone has to end the blight". Now it's him.
But when Loghain is spared, that's no longer him, that's someone else.

Now now.  Let's not get into that.  He's a person, not a robot.  Don't make me bring out my H8 Anora stick.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

So we clearly disagree with the Morrigan in the scenario where she loves/cares for the Warden. I think the reasons she does it change as her relationship with the Warden evolves. No kidding she leaves if she hates the Warden. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the regret and sorrow she displays, the fact that her plan now hurts her in some (to my mind, pretty big) way.

I didn't deny that it does hurt her (and the fact that she is capable of going against her emotions but not deny them, is something I greatly respect). But she isn't doing it for the Warden, which is what your post said.

LadyDamodred wrote...
KoP: You say everything you respect
Morrigan for is opposed to what Alistair thinks and believes. Does that
extend to the fact that both of them do something they dislike/hate for
the sake of saving the person they love?

She is not doing it to save us primarily. She is doing it for her own reasons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Whether he does or doesn't isn't the issue. When hardened, the fact is, he takes being king more seriously and actively. I don't think anyone's arguing that Alistair is a political genuis or possesed of Anora's cunning and capability. But he certainly is not a disasterous king, and does a good enough job at it. Whatever his reasons are irrelevant to my point.

I never said he was a disastrous king, or even a bad one.

I said some time ago here and I'll say it again because I like the wording.
Alistair at best will be a decent king (bordering on mediocre) that history will barely take notice of.

[LadyDamodred]

And that is where we disagree, as I said. I think her motives change, that it becomes more about saving the person she cares about that her own goals, though I'm not denying they're still there.

[Jon Jern_]

But doesn't it state in the epilogue that an independent Alistair hardened on the throne surprises many people on his ruling?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I never said he was a disastrous king, or even a bad one.

I said some time ago here and I'll say it again because I like the wording.
Alistair at best will be a decent king (bordering on mediocre) that history will barely take notice of.

Other than the manner in which he came to the throne, yoiu would probably be right.

Which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing. There are really too many things in question in terms of Thedas to know what exactly is the best course for Ferelden at the end of origins. Sometimes, just having a ruler who can keep the country together is what a country needs more than anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

And that is where we disagree, as I said. I think her motives change, that it becomes more about saving the person she cares about that her own goals, though I'm not denying they're still there.

The way she phrased it implies otherwise. She adds it as a side note (to the chagrin of most Morrimancers, I don't mind).

She definately starts to want it more, but I see no indication that her main reason is to save the Warden. She wants that OGB and that's her primary motive. If she is rejected, even when romanced, she leaves, which is counter intuitive to what you are saying.

And yes, as much as I love her, I really don't expect or want her to change that radically, as to alter her priorities, for the sake of love.
When Arcturus followed her to the mirror, his primary motive was mainly pragmatic, love alone didn't cut it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:34 .

[errant_knight]

Jon Jern wrote...

But doesn't it state in the epilogue that an independent Alistair hardened on the throne surprises many people on his ruling?

Yes. It does. But KoP hates Alistair, so nothing he does can be good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Other than the manner in which he came to the throne, yoiu would probably be right.

Which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing. There are really too many things in question in terms of Thedas to know what exactly is the best course for Ferelden at the end of origins. Sometimes, just having a ruler who can keep the country together is what a country needs more than anything.

Best defense is a good offense, and not necessarily by the military. But by active policy making, capable of adapting, reacting and also taking initiatives (something many countries in the past and today failed to do before they got swept away).

Keeping the country together in an environment of change will most likely translate into stagnation.
Of course there are worse fates, like complete disintegration. Which is why I do not believe that Alsitair is disastrous as king.

[Sarah1281]

Jon Jern wrote...

But doesn't it state in the epilogue that an independent Alistair hardened on the throne surprises many people on his ruling?

I'd say most people went into Alistair's reign with the expectation that he would be absolutely horrible and need to rely on advisors all the time. Unhardened Alistair proves them correct since he is never at court and spends all his time with the people. Hardened Alistair surprises them by being determined to learn how to rule. We don't really hear anything about any of the five possible options' historical significance.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jon Jern wrote...

But doesn't it state in the epilogue that an independent Alistair hardened on the throne surprises many people on his ruling?

I recall it saying that he surprises people by how much he is willing to learn.
Nothing implies that his rule is great, or on par with Anora.

Most certainly not Bhelen....ok that made me chuckle a bit. Alistair and Bhelen. Ha the two shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:36 .

[Jon Jern_]

Seeing as how Alistair being king seems to be the choice most players made (See : Awakening without imports) I don't think Bioware will stir **** up by making the most popular choice one of the worst ones.