39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the love that is purest is the one which doesn't compromise who a person is, nor expects the other to do so.

Funny, I actually agree.

The difference may be that since I already place my loved ones above everything, then I'm not really making any compromises.

[errant_knight]

I think we could use some Alistair, so here's a picture inspired by something that hasn't been written yet:

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didnt' say it wasn't a reason. You said it's the main reason.
I am disputing this.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If she is rejected, even when romanced, she leaves, which is counter intuitive to what you are saying.

I was responding specifically to this, though I think there might have been some confusion along the way.  Just the fact that you can love someone, and still leave them like that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That depends entirely on how you define love.
The kind of love you are talking about, for me, is weakness.

 
Not quite sure how to respond to that, since if you love someone, you...love them.  I'm not really talking about anything except for two people loving each other, not one person loving the other and the other being all meh about them.  And if that's a weakness, I will be weak any and every day of the week.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Even when it's about change of the world on a massive scale and forces beyond the ordinary?

No thank you, I prefer Morrigan who has her priorities straight.

*wonders how "very few things" became "nothing"*  I am not saying that love needs to be the only factor, so I'm a little confused as how this keeps coming up.  I'm saying it should be more than "marginal".  That is should actually hold some real importance.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Lust implies only sexuality involved, which was not the case. It was much more. But not enough to alter any of us dramatically.

 

I'm missing how it's really more than that from what you're describing though.  I obviously don't get it.

We are clearly very different people.  *shrugs*

Attempting to get it back on topic, one of the reasons I like Alistair's character is that you know the Warden's feeling for him are returned, and he's willing to make sacrifices for her.  I suspect a male LI would do very, very poorly if he acted like Morrigan does.  Women see far too much of that in real life, and might be the reason I have trouble understanding it, because it isn't attractive to me at all.

Also, I may just drop off without responding to something, since I have a cold and am waiting for the house to cool enough that I can breathe well enough to sleep.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the love that is purest is the one which doesn't compromise who a person is, nor expects the other to do so.

Funny, I actually agree.

The difference may be that since I already place my loved ones above everything, then I'm not really making any compromises.

Then it's love shaping who you are and what you believe, correct?

Not quite what I am talking about. I do think a person can exist independently without love. As in have a character that is definable independent of love.
Not saying it would be a pleasant life. Nor saying that love doesn't or shouldn't influence us.

But if I was to describe my personality and who I am at the core, I think I can define it independently from love to anyone (and yes, I can and do feel love).  

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
 I was responding specifically to this, though I think there might have been some confusion along the way.  Just the fact that you can love someone, and still leave them like that.

Before that, you said her main reason to leave was because she doesn't want to see the Warden die.
I disagree, I think she left because she has no strong reason to risk her life, when she should prepare for whatever it is she's doing.

Not quite sure how to respond to that, since if you love someone, you...love them.  I'm not really talking about anything except for two people loving each other, not one person loving the other and the other being all meh about them.  And if that's a weakness, I will be weak any and every day of the week.

Again, that depends entirely on how you define love.
Taht's not how I define love, or the kind of love I could personally have.

If you don't want to recognise it as love, then fine, I don't mind. You can pick another word.
I have a problem with lust, because it only implies sex, which I know is not the case for me. I see the act as a way of expressing something deeper than just phsyical interaction that if I think too much about, starts to sound disgusting with all the sweat and fluids and stuff used for urination going in holes also used for urination.

*wonders how "very few things" became "nothing"*  I am not saying that love needs to be the only factor, so I'm a little confused as how this keeps coming up.  I'm saying it should be more than "marginal".  That is should actually hold some real importance.

I brought it up because we are talking about Morrigan, not hypotheticals.
And marginal relative to other issues. To this, yes it's marginal.

That doesn't mean it isn't important. Things have to be taken relative to others.
No matter how much I love someone, something that is of grave importance and on a large scale that might involve the lives of many, love is going to feel of relatively minor importance when compared to this. That doesn't mean that love is taken "meh". That rather means that the important issue is not taken "meh". 

I'm missing how it's really more than that from what you're describing though.  I obviously don't get it.

We are clearly very different people.  *shrugs*

I find it hard to believe that it's lust, when I was genuinely happy when Morrigan stopped wanting to have sex. For me, that was the pinnacle of the romance. So I'd think I know that it wasn't lust.

If you don't want to call it love or passion, because of the way you define those words, fine, call it attachement. Or something else. It's semantics.

Attempting to get it back on topic, one of the reasons I like Alistair's character is that you know the Warden's feeling for him are returned, and he's willing to make sacrifices for her.  I suspect a male LI would do very, very poorly if he acted like Morrigan does.  Women see far too much of that in real life, and might be the reason I have trouble understanding it, because it isn't attractive to me at all.

Then clearly, most women are not compatible with my tastes nor am I compatbile with theirs, which is something I established a long time ago
See, me changing myself for others to accept me, is not for me a desirable kind of love. I expect the woman who loves me to accept me for who I am, and vice versa. If not, then oh well, clearly we are not meant for each other. But yea. Differences.

Apparently Sarah doesn't mind....
Jk

Also, I may just drop off without responding to something, since I have a cold and am waiting for the house to cool enough that I can breathe well enough to sleep.

Aww, sorry to hear that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[LadyDamodred]

I didn't mention changing for other people so that they accept you. So not sure where that's coming from. You can change because you love someone, and if it's something you want to do and is of your own free will, it's not a bad thing.

As for defining love, I don't know how to define it except that it is. I will go to bat for those I love, without hesitation. Hurt those I love, and you've earned my eternal emnity. I don't stop and rationalize it as to whether or not the love is worth it.

*sighs dreamily at Alistair, imaging he's covered in blood because he's just been killing peeps for her Warden*

Edit:  Mmmm, 67 degrees.  Sleepy time!

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:59 .

[Jon Jern_]

Good noite.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I didn't mention changing for other people so that they accept you. So not sure where that's coming from. You can change because you love someone, and if it's something you want to do and is of your own free will, it's not a bad thing.

But neither Morrigan nor Arcturus want to do it. How does that mean that they don't love each other then?
You said *can* change. What if they don't?

Does love have to necessarily change people fundamentally (and yes, the change of Morrigan's reasons and the raison d'etre of everything she does is a fundamental change)? And if it doesn't change, then it's not love? 

What you are implying is that Morrigan not changing, makes her unworthy of being loved and puts her love into question. I say, if you don't accept Morrigan for who she is and / or expect her to change who she is, why love her in the first place. 

If people have illusions towards Morrigan, they should abandon ship and find someone else.

LadyDamodred wrote...
As for defining love, I don't know how to define it except that it is. I will go to bat for those I love, without hesitation. Hurt those I love, and you've earned my eternal emnity. I don't stop and rationalize it as to whether or not the love is worth it.

*sighs dreamily at Alistair, imaging he's covered in blood because he's just been killing peeps for her Warden*

Ok.
I have a vastly different conception.

And I know (hope) you are joking, but I find the idea of Morrigan killing for me, to be disturbing, unless it's for saving my life.
Morrigan killing for something more important than me and doing it logically, is something I wouldn't mind on the otherhand. Just don't expect me to not raise my eyebrow if she said "that was for you" surrounding by dead corpses.

I respect her too much to use her as a personal hitman.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:03 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Then it's love shaping who you are and what you believe, correct?

Not quite what I am talking about. I do think a person can exist independently without love. As in have a character that is definable independent of love.
Not saying it would be a pleasant life. Nor saying that love doesn't or shouldn't influence us.

But if I was to describe my personality and who I am at the core, I think I can define it independently from love to anyone (and yes, I can and do feel love).

Okay, this is outrageously off topic but who cares.

I also believe a person can exist and live a happy life all by themselves. Hell, that's almost surely where I am headed to...

I wouldn't say it's love shaping who I am and what I believe. I certainly wouldn't change my beliefs (that is, the ones that truly define who I am), for anyone. When I say that I place a loved one over anything, I'm talking about someone who has become a fundamental part of my life. In other words, someone who I know and understand completely. Should that person be compatible with everything I believe in (at least the truly important things), then I would be willing to place them above anything else.

Should I fail at finding such person, I'd be capable of living a perfectly happy life.

Gah, this is certainly hard to explain, but I hope I somehow made my point.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
 Should that person be compatible with everything I believe in (at least the truly important things), then I would be willing to place them above anything else.

Then we are in agreement. You place the important things that define you above love, as in you wouldn't change them for the sake of love. Or better worded, you wouldn't love (or want to love) someone who isn't compatible with those beliefs in the first place.
Exactly the same thing with Arcturus and Morrigan. It's not only that they wouldn't change themselves for the other, it's the very fact that they wouldn't that makes them love each other because they happen to be compatible to each other's tastes (but not necessarily compatible according to bigger circumstances / events / issues).

I don't know, I find the idea of Arcturus willing to let go of Morrigan so she could do something she believes she has to do and accepting that this thing is more important than her love for him, to be genuine love regardless. 
And he expects her to think the same about his situation and if she's still the Morrigan he fell in love with, she would.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[Glorfindel709]

A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved. ~ Kurt Vonnegut



That being said, in my experience love is often ephemeral and if you sacrifice the foundations of what make you, well you for something as fluid, changing, and sometimes short lived as love than you'll never be able to stand on your own.



Love is a wonderful thing, but if you radically change yourself and sacrifice the fundamental parts of yourself to better suit that love than it's not genuine.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Or better worded, you wouldn't love (or want to love) someone who isn't compatible with those beliefs in the first place.

Yes, exactly!

You have no idea how much I love to hear "we are in agreement". [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

For the record, I have never doubted that Arcturus loves Morrigan (or vice versa). Truly, I think they are perfect for each other really. The "sad" comment I made earlier was more about how I would feel in such situation, but I certainly don't think that Morrigan or Acturus felt sad about the situation... quite the contrary.

Ok, I can bow out of the conversation now. :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved. ~ Kurt Vonnegut
 

Meh. More appropriate to say that humanity as a species has a necessary and almost universal sex drive for reproduction, and them being social animals will inevitably lead to artificially constructed conceptions to define their interactions and relationship with their peers in the same group. 
....that killed the mood, didn't it?

But yes, I agree with what you are saying.
Hence why I think that kind of love is weakness.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:27 .

[Glorfindel709]

It's part of your charm KoP :-p


And I agree that human beings, as social creatures, create constructs to create and then define how we feel about certain members of our peers (for example, I'm not a big fan of bigots or the Dutch) but it's a nice dive into naiveity to think that maybe, just maybe, there is some blind fool out there optimistic enough to believe that all human beings can be equally loved.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
You have no idea how much I love to hear "we are in agreement". [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

For the record, I have never doubted that Arcturus loves Morrigan (or vice versa). Truly, I think they are perfect for each other really. The "sad" comment I made earlier was more about how I would feel in such situation, but I certainly don't think that Morrigan or Acturus felt sad about the situation... quite the contrary.

Ok, I can bow out of the conversation now. :happy:

I think they can and do feel sad. Say if Arcturus decided he should go back and Morrigan decided to press onwards. They can still feel sadness and not deny it, but not succumb to that sadness.

I may advocate reason over emotions, but I would never advocate denying the emotions you feel. Accepting them, and confronting them if there is a need to, makes one wiser and braver than those who deny it or hide it from themselves, imo. 

And yes, I like being in agreement

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:31 .

[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Attempting to get it back on topic, one of the reasons I like Alistair's character is that you know the Warden's feeling for him are returned, and he's willing to make sacrifices for her.  I suspect a male LI would do very, very poorly if he acted like Morrigan does.  Women see far too much of that in real life, and might be the reason I have trouble understanding it, because it isn't attractive to me at all.

Also, I may just drop off without responding to something, since I have a cold and am waiting for the house to cool enough that I can breathe well enough to sleep.

Butbutbut... I see Morrigan and Alistair as fairly alike in this.  Duty bound.  Alistair will leave his lover for duty in many of his outcomes.  Even breaking up with her over Loghain is, in a sense, inspired by his sense of loyalty to the Wardens.  I'm pretty sure that the writers meant both Alistair's and Morrigan's romances to have tragic outcomes for a lot of players.

Get better soon. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

It's part of your charm KoP :-p


And I agree that human beings, as social creatures, create constructs to create and then define how we feel about certain members of our peers (for example, I'm not a big fan of bigots or the Dutch) but it's a nice dive into naiveity to think that maybe, just maybe, there is some blind fool out there optimistic enough to believe that all human beings can be equally loved.

I think that ends up being love for "humanity" as a concept (whatever that means).
Maybe there is someone like that. But I'd think that someone would argue that humanity is a society in and of itself and that all of us are peers. Would be very detached from reality, sure. But I don't know.

I find that hatred has defined humanity accross the ages more than love. 

[Glorfindel709]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I find that hatred has defined humanity accross the ages more than love. 

^ that. One of the saddest and truest statements made about humanity.

I used to be one of those optimists that thought humankind would come together and realize it doesnt matter if you're Russian, German, white, black, whathave you. We're one race - the human race.

But, conflict and competition leads to progress so *shrugs*

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Butbutbut... I see Morrigan and Alistair as fairly alike in this.  Duty bound.  Alistair will leave his lover for duty in many of his outcomes.  Even breaking up with her over Loghain is, in a sense, inspired by his sense of loyalty to the Wardens.  I'm pretty sure that the writers meant both Alistair's and Morrigan's romances to have tragic outcomes for a lot of players.

*crying* no...ugh.
Morrigan remains consistent in her beliefs (concerning an issue larger than revenge, or honor, or any of that uselessness. I wouldn';t even define it as a belief. Just something that has to be done). Alistair doesn't and he outright says he isn't a warden anymore when hardened, so I see no loyalty to anything rivalling his loyalty to his own emotions. Killing Loghain is not the something that has to be done here, it's defeating the blight, which he purposely decides not to do because he thinks the former (and his own feelings) is more important.

But enough, don't want to get into that.
I just get ticky when the two are compared, wrongly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
^ that. One of the saddest and truest statements made about humanity.

I used to be one of those optimists that thought humankind would come together and realize it doesnt matter if you're Russian, German, white, black, whathave you. We're one race - the human race.

But, conflict and competition leads to progress so *shrugs*

That will only happen when aliens are discovered, so we have a "other" to hate on and unite us.

classic strategy of unification. Bismarck understood this perfectly.

And 100% agreed on your last statement. I like humanity as it is. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .

[Glorfindel709]

@LadyD You can have my house! Im getting tired of waking up in the morning and being able to see my breath

@KoP - completely agree on all points. On a side note, Bismarcks' "realpolitik" was the subject of all of my Ethics in Diplomacy and International Relations classes papers not to mention one of my favorite theories to use in Lincoln Douglas Debate back in HS

I like to think that humanity could be a bit better in some aspects, but conflict is necessary for growth. I'd rather have progress and conflict over primitive society and relative(because in the end everything is relative) peace

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:53 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
*crying* no...ugh.
Morrigan remains consistent in her beliefs (concerning an issue larger than revenge, or honor, or any of that uselessness. I wouldn';t even define it as a belief. Just something that has to be done). Alistair doesn't and he outright says he isn't a warden anymore when hardened, so I see no loyalty to anything rivalling his loyalty to his own emotions. Killing Loghain is not the something that has to be done here, it's defeating the blight, which he purposely decides not to do because he thinks the former (and his own feelings) is more important.

But enough, don't want to get into that.
I just get ticky when the two are compared, wrongly.

Alistair's sense of duty is defined personally with his loyalty to Duncan, and to the ideal of doing good, not to a military order.  Morrigan even speaks of what she has to do as her duty.  Even if they are different types of people, their basic motivation is the same.

Written by the same guy, I remind you...

[Lady Jess]

OMG Addai has a Loghain sig!! The world is ending!



/passes out

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Alistair's sense of duty is defined personally with his loyalty to Duncan, and to the ideal of doing good, not to a military order.  Morrigan even speaks of what she has to do as her duty.  Even if they are different types of people, their basic motivation is the same.

Written by the same guy, I remind you...

And how they being written by the same guy means they are similar? I would expect originality for the same writer at the very least.
Wasnt' zevran also written by the same guy? Does that make Zev and Alsitair similar?

His personal loyalty to Duncan is nothing more than an infatuation with a father figure he never had, so he projected that image on him. True loyalty to Duncan, the Warden, is to fight the blight whatever the cost. And there is nothing good about abandoning a country because his revenge wasn't satisfied, according to his own beliefs when he finds the idea of leaving Ferelden before (for actually good reasons I might add!), something unbearable to think about.

Alistair is being inconsistent, incoherent, immature and childish. No loyalty, no principles, no honor, no justice involved here. Nothing, except an emotional response without reason to regulate and control it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
@KoP - completely agree on all points. On a side note, Bismarcks' "realpolitik" was the subject of all of my Ethics in Diplomacy and International Relations classes papers not to mention one of my favorite theories to use in Lincoln Douglas Debate back in HS

I like to think that humanity could be a bit better in some aspects, but conflict is necessary for growth. I'd rather have progress and conflict over primitive society and relative(because in the end everything is relative) peace

Ooooh, did you study / write about Talleyrand and Metternich? :happy:
Huge fan of those.

EDIT: gtg sleep. Cheers!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .