39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Very close, I think.  If you are completely isolated, who are you?  We define ourselves through the people and things around us and our relation to them.  I'm not saying that the hermit who lives alone in a cabin in the woods is not a person.  But that hermit touches no one and nothing.  Who is he, and does it matter?

That's humans being social animals and using constructed concepts to define those interactions and relationships. There is no need to romanticize and spiritualize love. It's just there. It's important. It's not everything and it's not the most important thing.

LadyDamodred wrote...
Love is when someone else is more important than yourself.  When their well-being, their survival, their hopes and dreams are more important than your own.

Then evidently, under your definition, I'll never know that love at all. Nor do I want to.

Putting someone else to be as important as you, that for me is love. Love between equals. But for me to think taht someone else is for some reason more important than me and that their dreams and hopes supercede mine?
Never.

And nor would I ever except someone I love to think that way about me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:52 .

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Then evidently, under your definition, I'll never know that love at all. Nor do I want to.

Putting someone else to be as important as you, that for me is love. Love between equals. But for me to think taht someone else is for some reason more important than me and that their dreams and hopes supercede mine?
Never.

And nor would I ever except someone I love to think that way about me.

Yeah I said that too. Then I had children. I'd take a bullet for either of them. I have and will sacrifice my needs for theirs any day of the week. Their happiness, their needs, and their success is more important than mine and has been since the moment they drew breath. and no, no I don't give them everything they WANT, and they do face consequences for their actions but none the less they are priority, then my husband, then me. Though hubby is kids>wife>army>him so it all works out nicely.

[Lady Jess]

We need some rockistair in here...

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Alistair is the one who tells us "The wardens do whatever is necessary to defweat the blight" and he stresses it. So either he is stupid enough not to understand basic words, or just doesn't want to understand.
And him saying taht they can't leave Ferelden is him talking, not from a warden perspective. He just can't see himself abadoning Ferelden, until the Landsmeet, hence the inconsistency.

 
There is a huge difference between knowing something intellectually and coming to realize the brutal truth of it in your heart.  I know in my mind that someday my parents will die.  When it actually happens, I will be a complete and utter wreck.  Alistair knows the Wardens do what they have to.  When confronted by the reality of what it means, and he truly understand the lengths to which they will go, it undoes him.  It had nothing to do with him being stupid.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am using the philosophical definition used by David Hume.
Semantics.  The desirable and healthy kind of passion is the one governed by reason, let's just say.

 
So we're using different definitions, and ones that are very different.  It means we're taking about two different things.  In light of this, I would have thrown out the word altogether and chosen different verbiage.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I never said one shouldn't take them into account. But they shouldn't govern a person, for they are outside of our control and are basic reactions. It's reason that should govern them and not vice versa.

And here we disagree on fundamental levels.  So....

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Hence me saying that he couldn't control his emotions and that was my point. And that is immaturity and incoherence.

 
For me, being unable to control your emotions does not make you immature.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Again, I never dismissed its importance. I dismiss the notion that is it the most important thing. Important enough to override reason. Important enough to make me go against everything I believe.
For me a life when you are just content with loving and being loved without any sense of purpose in life that transcends your basic emotions that you have no control over and nothing to look forward to, to be an even more horrifying existence. One that I cannot imagine myself living. Nor do I imagine myself loving someone who is content with that kind of existence.

I never said anything about having no other purpose in life except loving something, so don't put words in my mouth.  I find that to be creepy and slavish and reject that.  You cannot love someone if you don't take care of yourself, and part of that means being your own person.  You cannot simply exist for another.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I stil lfail to see how the loss of loved ones now, is going to alter me fundamentally. Neither do I see how if I fall in love right now, I would change fundamentally just for that reason. Who I am, is much stronger to be swiped away by basic feelings.

I truly and sincerely hope you never find out.  As for them being basic feelings....  *gives up*  I don't know how to impress upon you that they are not simply basic feelings, but the deepest ones of all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Love itself seems to be hardwired into most species of higher animal. And if it is something that is hardwired in, then by nature, there must be a logical reason it exists. It must be essential to the survival of the species.

That's simply species perservation instinct. It's not love as we humans define it. What we call love is just us being social animals. 

The main pint was however, that this sentiment should not override who each individual is because at the end of the day we are individuals with free will and reason.
For me a love that compromises the character of a person, is an undesirable form of love and I do not see how it's necessary in the slightest.

The love that binds people together in societies and groups, that is fundamental and yes it influences the way individuals develop. However, for individuals to change everytime they fall in love because the other is expecting you too, is just a sign of weak individuality.   
For individuals to go against reason and common sense, for the sake of an emotion, is trusting a reaction that you cannot control over something that you can.

Logic is a tool, it doesnt' exist in and of itself. Every logic needs a premise and a purpose (for me, it's the positive passion). That we know. But a basic ingredient of logic is coherence and Alsitair fails to show it in the Landsmeet.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
There is a huge difference between knowing something intellectually and coming to realize the brutal truth of it in your heart.  I know in my mind that someday my parents will die.  When it actually happens, I will be a complete and utter wreck.  Alistair knows the Wardens do what they have to.  When confronted by the reality of what it means, and he truly understand the lengths to which they will go, it undoes him.  It had nothing to do with him being stupid.

Then not mature or brave enough to confront the truth and understand the real meaning of words.
By that point, I think he was too infatuated with his new Warden family, that he didn't really want to think about it.

Duncan told him that it's war and people will die and he is going to havee to go to the deeproads too. Alistair knew this and better yet, he knew he should have handeled it better. But he didn't. Because he is self-centered and unable to understand the larger scheme of things.

So we're using different definitions, and ones that are very different.  It means we're taking about two different things.  In light of this, I would have thrown out the word altogether and chosen different verbiage.

Fine, call it postive passions.

I never said anything about having no other purpose in life except loving something, so don't put words in my mouth.  I find that to be creepy and slavish and reject that.  You cannot love someone if you don't take care of yourself, and part of that means being your own person.  You cannot simply exist for another.

You said it's the most important thing.
Point stands. To make love the most important purpose in my life, is something I cannot embrace as my philosophy.
Should it come to things that I deem more important than love vs love, I'd pick the more important thing. And I just did a week ago.

I truly and sincerely hope you never find out. 

My mom lost her dad and I know her like an open book. Nothing about her character changed fundamentally. Being sad about someone =/= being changed.
I do not see the corrolation and you do not have to hope that I will not find out, because I will sooner or later.

I do nto see how my world views, my core beliefs, my attitude, mannerisms...etc etc everythign that defines me, is going to change because of the death of someone I love. I'll be deeply affected, but not enough to change who I am. Nor do I see how this is soemthing desirable.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
Yeah I said that too. Then I had children. I'd take a bullet for either of them. I have and will sacrifice my needs for theirs any day of the week. Their happiness, their needs, and their success is more important than mine and has been since the moment they drew breath. and no, no I don't give them everything they WANT, and they do face consequences for their actions but none the less they are priority, then my husband, then me. Though hubby is kids>wife>army>him so it all works out nicely.

I am not saying I consider myself more important than my family, future wife and future children. I would place them all equally. And yes, I might sacrifice things for them, like I expect sacrifices in return. And that's why my ex and I broke off, because we knew that our lives where heading in opposite direction and that there was no room for ocmpromise.
So yes, I am going to calculate when it comes to marriage and children and make sure that everything is compatible before I start anything. Compromises wil obviously be necessary, just not on a fundamental level.

Who I am, is not something I am going to compromise for anyone. Unless given a strong reason to change, which will not be based on an emotion.

[ColaQueen]

I'm going off topic, or rather going to the main topic..being Alistair...



As pretty as he is, and fun to romance, and very amusing, I think his virginess puts me off a little. You get rogues like Atton or Sky and they always make me weak in the knees.



Though out of the possible romances I do prefer him them most.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do nto see how my world views, my core beliefs, my attitude, mannerisms...etc etc everythign that defines me, is going to change because of the death of someone I love. I'll be deeply affected, but not enough to change who I am.

I quit.  I never said that.  I said it changes you, not that it changes every single thing about you.  Yet you seem hung up on that, so whatever.  It's a waste of my time.

[Schratty]

*Hugs LadyD* Do need something cute to cuddle?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do nto see how my world views, my core beliefs, my attitude, mannerisms...etc etc everythign that defines me, is going to change because of the death of someone I love. I'll be deeply affected, but not enough to change who I am.

I quit.  I never said that.  I said it changes you, not that it changes every single thing about you.  Yet you seem hung up on that, so whatever.  It's a waste of my time.

You said fundamentally change you.
How? Why?

Add "or" between each of those examples. Take them individually. How is it going to change anythign I consider fundamental to who I am?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:23 .

[LadyDamodred]

I do. *snatches her cat and cuddles*



I also need food, I think. Haven't eaten yet today. Hmmm. Maybe my friend will be waking up shortly.

[Briiel]

*gets lost in the posts * *gives up *



LOVE IS A BATTLEFIELD !!!

*gives her random*

I LOVE ALI!!!! WOOOHOOO !!! *goes and drinks more soda*

[Giggles_Manically]

@Briiel.





Indeed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea political debates are much more fun.

I am almost 100% sue that people now think that I reject love as a useless emotion and that I can't feel it, or want to feel it.

[Giggles_Manically]

@KoP.



You happen to be one of the most diehard Morrigan fans around and talk about how you want to hug Legion sometimes. Besides not even Xanatos himself could escape love or compassion.



If your saint follows it, it stands to reason that you would.



Or at least in my own twisted logic.

On that LEGION NEEDS A HUG:





Any takers?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Just to make soemthign clear, because I know I screw it up with the wording. There is a stage of development for every individual, and that's what we know as adolescence. It's a period of transition from a child to an adult that will ultimately shape and define who you are.

Obviously, the presence of love, especially in this period, is crucial and will make a huge difference.

I am really referring to the period post this stage. The discussion about Morrigan and I didn't express myself as well as I would have liked, so it may have come accross me saying that love in a child's life is not going to change anything, which is false and even potentially insulting, so I apologize. I am talking about when someone's character has been firmly established. I think Morrigan's character, despite her upbringing, was firmly established by that point, but obviously flawed (aren't we all).

Not saying that adults can't or shouldn't change, but in that stage of life, the presence or absence of love, while crucial to the happiness of an individual, should not, imo, alter his / her personality fundamentally. That's what I meant.And the kind of love that seeks to impose such a change, is not desirable, for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:33 .

[rak72]

Renee's thoughts on love (for what it's worth):

Love is all about respect and compromise, nobody can fit perfectly into your nitch. If you are unwilling to compromise, you are going to push away everone except the ones who are like doormats, and you won't fall in love with them because you can't respect someone who kisses your butt. You might wake up one day and decide you are ready for love and say to yourself, " ok, I'm going to find someone with this this and that, and we will fall in love and have lots of kids, 2 dogs, and a mini van". You might even find that person who is perfect on paper, but that will most likely not be the head in the clouds, skipping through fields true love that we all seek. I personaly can take very good care of myself, I would rather be alone than in some kind of "buisness" arrangement with Mr. perfect on paper.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

Renee's thoughts on love (for what it's worth):
Love is all about respect and compromise, nobody can fit perfectly into your nitch. If you are unwilling to compromise, you are going to push away everone except the ones who are like doormats, and you won't fall in love with them because you can't respect someone who kisses your butt. You might wake up one day and decide you are ready for love and say to yourself, " ok, I'm going to find someone with this this and that, and we will fall in love and have lots of kids, 2 dogs, and a mini van". You might even find that person who is perfect on paper, but that will most likely not be the head in the clouds, skipping through fields true love that we all seek. I personaly can take very good care of myself, I would rather be alone than in some kind of "buisness" arrangement with Mr. perfect on paper.

And I just said, compromise wil be necessary.

I will not however, compromise what I consider to be fundamental to my individuality. Nor do I expect the person I love to do the same for me. 

I personally prefer living in a business arrangement, than pursuing a love that has no chance of building something. Ideally, I prefer the love that wouldn't have to make me change myself fundamentally.

[rak72]

What do you consider changing fundamentaly?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
 Besides not even Xanatos himself could escape love or compassion.

Neither he nor Fox changed fundamentally however, simply due to love.
They changed when the Gargoyles helped them save Alex. And they changed to be able to accomodate their child into their life, but nothign fundamental.
Xanatos and Fox are still tricksters.

I fully expect Alex Xanatos to be Fox Xanatos Jr.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

What do you consider changing fundamentaly?

My core beliefs. My world views. The way I think.

Not saying it shouldn't ever change, it could, Just not because I fell in love with someone, or that someone died. I do not see the corrolation, or it being a desirable thing to strive for.

The original point was that Morrigan's love for the WArden changed her fundamentally, in the sense that now she believes that love is the most important thing and that's her main reason for doing the DR. Something I dispute completely. She changed, but not that much. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Then why did Morrigan let the warden go with her at the end of witch hunt?

And ONLY the wardens who had romanced her?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Then why did Morrigan let the warden go with her at the end of witch hunt?
And ONLY the wardens who had romanced her?

Why wouldn't she?
How does that fundamentally alter her plan?
And keep in mind that it's only thsoe who romanced Morrigan that can ask her really...

She still wants to do what she wants to do. She now realized that the Warden being with her, would not jeapordize her mission, it might even help her (her "let us face the future together" line).

The more pertinent question is. Why doesn't Morrigan accept to stay with the Warden that she loves and abandon this whole quest?
Because she thinks there is something more important to do. And it's more important than what she wants and the love she has for the Warden. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[rak72]

I'm not saying that If your love asks you to knock off a liquer store you should do that. That would be changing your fundamental beliefs (if you aren't the criminal sort). But one day you might meet someone who is a little messy, geographicly undesirable, maybe not too bright, or maybe a little loud and obnoxious. Not the perfect person you envisioned, but for some reason you fall for them. Thats when you have to open your heart and just roll with it.
I agree, Morrigan did what she did primarily because she wanted the OGB

Modifié par rak72, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:00 .