39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I understand perfectly. But there is nothing logical about saying one thing and then doing the opposite a few seconds later. That's just emotions at work, not Alsitair's logic at work.    

See, you define Alistair by one moment- one that even he comes to regret- which only happens under certain circumstances.  That is why I say you see the character so narrowly, it's impossible to discuss him with you.

Not that I don't always try.  LOL

Eh, it's Friday.

Have an SV moment.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's simply species perservation instinct. It's not love as we humans define it. What we call love is just us being social animals.

It doesn't change the sentiment or emotion. It still exists.

The main pint was however, that this sentiment should not override who each individual is because at the end of the day we are individuals with free will and reason.
For me a love that compromises the character of a person, is an undesirable form of love and I do not see how it's necessary in the slightest.

The two concepts: love and reason, are inserperable in my opinion. The feeling of love for other beings, whether romantic, friendly, familial, ect, is a logical development of the species. One should never allow either to override the other. And, if examined closely, are not so dissimilar.

The love that binds people together in societies and groups, that is fundamental and yes it influences the way individuals develop. However, for individuals to change everytime they fall in love because the other is expecting you too, is just a sign of weak individuality.   
For individuals to go against reason and common sense, for the sake of an emotion, is trusting a reaction that you cannot control over something that you can.

If someone is expecting you to change from the start, then it's not really love, at least in my opinion, and I do not refer to it as such. You take an individual as is, or you cross paths and seperate. If the other person is willing to change to appease the other, then it is a sign of an undefined self. You can see that as a weakness if you like, however, there are people whose basic personality exists to please others, and that is the extent of their identity, for the most part.

And there are many times when following one's gut instinct/emotional reaction as opposed to reason is actually a desirable, and sensible road to take. Not all emotional reactions are pointless. Sometimes, they can save your life or prevent something undesirable.

Logic is a tool, it doesnt' exist in and of itself. Every logic needs a premise and a purpose (for me, it's the positive passion). That we know. But a basic ingredient of logic is coherence and Alsitair fails to show it in the Landsmeet.

I don't see what you mean by coherent, as Alistair's objections and fury at the idea of sparing Loghain was quite understandable, his reaction not that surprising or offensive.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
Yeah I said that too. Then I had children. I'd take a bullet for either of them. I have and will sacrifice my needs for theirs any day of the week. Their happiness, their needs, and their success is more important than mine and has been since the moment they drew breath. and no, no I don't give them everything they WANT, and they do face consequences for their actions but none the less they are priority, then my husband, then me. Though hubby is kids>wife>army>him so it all works out nicely.

I am not saying I consider myself more important than my family, future wife and future children. I would place them all equally. And yes, I might sacrifice things for them, like I expect sacrifices in return. And that's why my ex and I broke off, because we knew that our lives where heading in opposite direction and that there was no room for ocmpromise.
So yes, I am going to calculate when it comes to marriage and children and make sure that everything is compatible before I start anything. Compromises wil obviously be necessary, just not on a fundamental level.

Who I am, is not something I am going to compromise for anyone. Unless given a strong reason to change, which will not be based on an emotion.

And neither have I. I am still who I am, that never changed.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I understand perfectly. But there is nothing logical about saying one thing and then doing the opposite a few seconds later. That's just emotions at work, not Alsitair's logic at work.    

See, you define Alistair by one moment- one that even he comes to regret- which only happens under certain circumstances.  That is why I say you see the character so narrowly, it's impossible to discuss him with you.

Not that I don't always try.  LOL

Eh, it's Friday.

Have an SV moment.

Awwww! Puppy! It looks like the village dog that likes to run amok and beg for scraps!

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...
But one day you might meet someone who is a little messy, geographicly undesirable, maybe not too bright, or maybe a little loud and obnoxious. Not the perfect person you envisioned, but for some reason you fall for them. Thats when you have to open your heart and just roll with it.

I do not see why I have to. She would annoy me greatly for the rest of  my life. And I am sure she would feel the same way about me.

I'd take my chances with someone else. For me, marriage is a contract (in our culture, we have wtinesses to testify on the peice of paper exactly like what we do for contracts. And with the monetary interaction) and family is a social institution.

Maybe it;s cultural then? Because we really treat marriage as a contract, with pathe paid thingy before marriage that I forgot how to call it. It doesn't mean that it's a loveless marriage necessarily, and ieven if it is loveless, it generally works out. We calculate everything, including her family name, reputation, neigbhoord. Sometimes they calculate things that are borderline absurd, like the history of her famil's health. But yea, I don't mind.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
See, you define Alistair by one moment- one that even he comes to regret- which only happens under certain circumstances.  That is why I say you see the character so narrowly, it's impossible to discuss him with you.

Not that I don't always try.  LOL

Oj fair enough. I got carried away, I apologise. Yes, the main point I was arguing is that moment.Sometimes when we talk about one thing, it starts going all over the place. Not that I see Alsitair as a paragon of reason and logic, but yes, I was talking about that one moment.
My opinion that he is self-centered, which I base on several moments, is something I still stand by.

And once upon a time, I thought the same way about you vis a vis Loghain

[Maria13]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*giggles*  Oh, lord, Maria, you've just compared Alistair to a stallion.

I love you!

Okaaaay... That's something to build on... :happy:

Alistair looking impossibly noble because it's Friday...

Modifié par Maria13, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The two concepts: love and reason, are inserperable in my opinion. The feeling of love for other beings, whether romantic, friendly, familial, ect, is a logical development of the species. One should never allow either to override the other. And, if examined closely, are not so dissimilar.

Indeed and the way I define love, is as a passion. An emotional pursuit that ought to be governed by reason.
But my definition is evidently not universal.

And that's the thing, I do not think reason can override anything. I do not think there is such a thing as "too much reason". I can hwoever say that someone is excessively in love that it's unhealthy or creepy.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If someone is expecting you to change from the start, then it's not really love, at least in my opinion, and I do not refer to it as such. You take an individual as is, or you cross paths and seperate. If the other person is willing to change to appease the other, then it is a sign of an undefined self. You can see that as a weakness if you like, however, there are people whose basic personality exists to please others, and that is the extent of their identity, for the most part.

I concur.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And there are many times when following one's gut instinct/emotional reaction as opposed to reason is actually a desirable, and sensible road to take. Not all emotional reactions are pointless. Sometimes, they can save your life or prevent something undesirable.

Instinct, maybe. But acting on anger, or hatred, or deep attachement, before thinking, is not something I find desirable except in extreme cases (when there is no time to think).
The exception is fear, it's a survival mechanism. But sometimes even fear can lead us astray and be counter-productive.

I don't see what you mean by coherent, as Alistair's objections and fury at the idea of sparing Loghain was quite understandable, his reaction not that surprising or offensive.

Him leaving Ferelden to the blight, while emphasizing Warden honor and his duty towards Duncan, is incoherent. He found the idea of leaving ferelden before unbearable.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



I'd take my chances with someone else. For me, marriage is a contract (in our culture, we have wtinesses to testify on the peice of paper exactly like what we do for contracts. And with the monetary interaction) and family is a social institution.

Maybe it;s cultural then? Because we really treat marriage as a contract, with pathe paid thingy before marriage that I forgot how to call it.

Dowry or bride price, depending on who is giving/getting what, is the term you are looking for.

It doesn't mean that it's a loveless marriage necessarily, and ieven if it is loveless, it generally works out. We calculate everything, including her family name, reputation, neigbhoord. Sometimes they calculate things that are borderline absurd, like the history of her famil's health. But yea, I don't mind.

It definitely is a cultural thing. In most western cultures, marrying on the basis of status/family name/wealth is considered shallow (not that I am calling the Middle eastern system shallow, just pointing out how we view such arrangements in our own society). People seek out their own partners normally without aid from the family, though usually family helps broaden contact with prospective mates. Though factors such as race, religion, economics, ect do factor into people's descisions to get married, the couple is expected to have love for one another, to have feelings for each other.

It's more than a legal contract in our society. Amongst the lower classes of Europe, this has been the norm since times forgotten. It was mainly aristocrats and wealthy people who did the whole arranged marriage thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
And neither have I. I am still who I am, that never changed.

And that's good.
Some people could very well define their love for someone else to be a fundamental part of their personality.

But I do not think that is the case for Morrigan. Nor for me, to the extent that it would make me think that someone else is more important than me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:21 .

[Maria13]

rak72 wrote...

But one day you might meet someone who is a little messy, geographicly undesirable, maybe not too bright, or maybe a little loud and obnoxious. Not the perfect person you envisioned, but for some reason you fall for them. Thats when you have to open your heart and just roll with it.

Funny... That's what happened to my husband... Poor guy didn't know what hit him...

Modifié par Maria13, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It definitely is a cultural thing. In most western cultures, marrying on the basis of status/family name/wealth is considered shallow (not that I am calling the Middle eastern system shallow, just pointing out how we view such arrangements in our own society). People seek out their own partners normally without aid from the family, though usually family helps broaden contact with prospective mates. Though factors such as race, religion, economics, ect do factor into people's descisions to get married, the couple is expected to have love for one another, to have feelings for each other.

It's more than a legal contract in our society. Amongst the lower classes of Europe, this has been the norm since times forgotten. It was mainly aristocrats and wealthy people who did the whole arranged marriage thing.

Yes Dowry! Thank you.

And it's nto necessarily arranged marriage. I reject the idea that one cannot choose his own future. And for us, in theory, it's clear. Both the man and the woman have to accept each other regardless of what the parents say (in practise, I know that's not always the case). But in theory it's a sin for parents to force a woman to accept a marriage she doesn't want. Or worse, to not even ask her.

So I dislike the terminology of arranged marriage, that's definately not what I am looking for. Not saying it still doesn't happen in our societies, but that's not what I want for myself. Nor was I raised in such a fashion. 

Calculated marriage is more like it. My parents would give advice and all, but I'll be doing the calculations.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Oh you guys are making me feel so bad about making Alistair a drunk in this run.

First he falls in wuv... twue wuv then he loses it all in one fell swoop (puns!).



Although no wait I dont feel so bad about it really since I executed him on one run so at least he stays ahead in this run. Even though in the landsmeet he does emotionally lose his head.



Okay I will stop.

I still have a good head on my shoulders....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes Dowry! Thank you.

And it's nto necessarily arranged marriage. I reject the idea that one cannot choose his own future. And for us, in theory, it's clear. Both the man and the woman have to accept each other regardless of what the parents say (in practise, I know that's not always the case). But in theory it's a sin for parents to force a woman to accept a marriage she doesn't want. Or worse, to not even ask her.

So I dislike the terminology of arranged marriage, that's definately not what I am looking for. Not saying it still doesn't happen in our societies, but that's not what I want for myself. Nor was I raised in such a fashion. 

Calculated marriage is more like it. My parents would give advice and all, but I'll be doing the calculations.

Ok, I see what you mean. To the individuals getting married, it is more a business/social contract than anything, and thus, what they seek in a mate will be based on favorable prospects for a stable financial/social union.

I think I understand what you mean. And in Western society, to marry soley for social/material reasons without actual love being involved is generally considered to be bad. We even refer to them as sham marriages, because in our society, love is the primeary factor/reason to marry a person. Not that other practical factors do not count, but when choosing a mate, the first thing most people look for is someone they are in love with.

naturally, this is not always the case, and in our society, marriage without love happens often enough. However, people in such marriages do not usually openly admit this, but pretend to be in love for the sake of appearances. Otherwise, people do not really view them as a proper married couple, even if they are legally.


I think this is where everyone's wires are crossing: differing cultural attitudes towards love. Which is as valid as anything, because I know from experience that attitudes towards alot of traits/activities/emotions in people are viewed in different light/capacity in different places. For you, to imagine a marriage based on feeling and attraction as prime motivating factors is probably a pretty depressing/untenable idea. For most people in the west, the opposite is true.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still have a good head on my shoulders....

You know, I have many, many ways to remedy that particular problem.......

[Glorfindel709]

And this is why Skadi scares me. Eloquent and subtle, but frightening as hell....

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still have a good head on my shoulders....

You know, I have many, many ways to remedy that particular problem.......

Yes but how can you be sure that is not one of my clones running around.

Left the door open for a minute and out they went.
The insurance claims are very expensive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 For you, to imagine a marriage based on feeling and attraction as prime motivating factors is probably a pretty depressing/untenable idea. For most people in the west, the opposite is true.

Yes.
If given the choice between being in a working stable relationship capable of being a healthy environment for raising children and being satisfied wtih our lives vis a vis careers, family name, reputation..etc, but without whatever it is you mean by "love", vs a relationship that's clearly not working, is unstable, and not compatible with raising children, pursuing careers and carrying on with our lives normally but with love, I'd choose the former everytime.

Now obviously, the couple shouldn't hate or be indifferent to one another, that's not a healthy partnership (which is what marriage is all aobut for me). They should feel attachement to each other, which I think can develop over time.

And of course, would I love to have both all practical factors and love att the same time? Absolutely.
But if given the choice between either this or that, then I'll choose the practical factors.

Some might say that it would not be a happy existence. Maybe. But being in a relationship with someone that's clearly not working despite the fact that I love her, is even more depressing and unhappy for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:43 .

[Maria13]

Elysis wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Nature is interesting isn't it? I was reading up on the behaviour of horses for my FF. I am an urbanite I know nothing of horses but apparently stallions are the most antsy to ride but in a natural setting the horse herd tends to be actually directed by an experienced female whereas the stallions hang behind to defend the herd and support the lead female.

I remember the first time I did some Liberty work with a 2 year old Stallion, he literally charged me 
(if you need info for your FF I'll be happy to help! I studied Horse Ethology and can share some experiences if you'd like)

Okay, I mean no insult but some men and a few women are most fulfilled when they are carrying out a similar role in human society. I see Alistair as one of those too, he aspires mainly to be a protector, not a leader. That is a very noble calling. And as Lady Jess says we should all be thankful for such people.

This. A thousand times!

I get very sick of people praising the fact that people are/should be self-preserved and that it's a natural behavior. Whatever resemblances we have with animals, if you study our (human) brain one thing raises us above these instincts : the neocortex, which gives us a conscience.
If people stopped being self-centered and individualists, I truely believe the world would be a better place. But that's just me.

That's an interesting story...  I wished I'd known about your studies before publishing chapter 48...  If I have any future queries about horses can I pm you?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still have a good head on my shoulders....

You know, I have many, many ways to remedy that particular problem.......

Yes but how can you be sure that is not one of my clones running around.

Left the door open for a minute and out they went.
The insurance claims are very expensive.

Who say's I'd stop with just one clone?

Can your ability to replicate match the speed in which I can imagine creative ways to dismember you?

That is an equation Einstein wouldn't touch.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

And this is why Skadi scares me. Eloquent and subtle, but frightening as hell....

In otherwords, sexy.

[Jon Jern_]

Hey guys, are we arguing about why Alistair is the voice of the generation?

Don't worry, that'll come up soon.

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still have a good head on my shoulders....

You know, I have many, many ways to remedy that particular problem.......

Yes but how can you be sure that is not one of my clones running around.

Left the door open for a minute and out they went.
The insurance claims are very expensive.

Who say's I'd stop with just one clone?

Can your ability to replicate match the speed in which I can imagine creative ways to dismember you?

That is an equation Einstein wouldn't touch.

You would have to factor in chasing them down, and capturing them as well.

Those little bastards stole ALL my jets and took off.
Plus my cheetos! 

Dont care what you really do with them I have moved onto robotics.

[Maria13]

LadyDamodred wrote...

AL: "Time for me to go. Good luck. You'll need it if he actually survives the Joining."
PC: "You don't have to leave."
AL: "You heard Anora. I do, or I get to join Duncan. Nice, huh?"

Slight

It's apparently just an unhardened line.  Interesting.

Edit:  See, Zjarcal, I don't know.  It's pretty ambiguous.  It seems like he's saying if he doesn't leave, she'll execute him anyway.  *frowns and ponders*

I think this is Alistair being canny... He suddenly realises he's always going to be perceived by Anora and Loggy as a threat.  He is also hinting that that was one of the reason's behind Duncan's death.  Additionally he may also be suggesting that if he stays he will be used against the Warden by A & L... And he is seeking to plant a seed of doubt in the Warden's mind about the calibre of his new allies...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Anora does not execute Alsitair if he remains a Warden. This is implying that Loghain has a say in this, which he clearly doesn't, he didn't open his mouth.

Anora can only execute Alsitair if he renounces his warden status. If not, even if he kills Loghain personally, she does not attempt to execute him.

So Alistair is being perceived as a threat (or more of a threat) by Anora only because he renounced his Warden status and "leaves" to Maker knows where.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:55 .