39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes.
If given the choice between being in a working stable relationship capable of being a healthy environment for raising children and being satisfied wtih our lives vis a vis careers, family name, reputation..etc, but without whatever it is you mean by "love", vs a relationship that's clearly not working, is unstable, and not compatible with raising children, pursuing careers and carrying on with our lives normally but with love, I'd choose the former everytime.

Now obviously, the couple shouldn't hate or be indifferent to one another, that's not a healthy partnership (which is what marriage is all aobut for me). They should feel attachement to each other, which I think can develop over time.

And of course, would I love to have both all practical factors and love att the same time? Absolutely.
But if given the choice between either this or that, then I'll choose the practical factors.

Some might say that it would not be a happy existence. Maybe. But being in a relationship with someone that's clearly not working despite the fact that I love her, to be even more depressing and unhappy.

It can be as happy as you want it to be. There are people in our culture who do it but won't admit it. It really depends on where one places interpersonal values, and what their goals are. Nothing wrong with it. Though in our culture, people usually just shack up rather than get married, or before they do so. Obviously, such things would be a no-go in a Middle eastern society. But in many western societies, especially Anglophone ones, we have what is known as Common Law spouse. In general, it is a term for a generally recognized "marriage", due to the fact both partners have been cohabitating for an agreed period of time (usually a few years). This dates back to the customs of the Anglo-Saxons and Danes, who married in this way. (The common folk, such as serfs and freemen. The nobles usually made more official, formal unions because of the business/social factor). This custom pre-dates Christianity, but even after Christianity came, they never managed to remove that part of Common Law.

And such marriages were driven by attraction/love more than many other factors, since social mobility was limited, and the people you married were likely to be as poor as you, so really, the only logical motive would be feelings of love/attraction/affection.

Chruch/official marriages amongst your average joe is a relatively recent development in much of European history. The Church usually charged people to marry, and alot of the country folk, for many generations after conversion, still clung to many pre-Christian customs.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You would have to factor in chasing them down, and capturing them as well.

Those little bastards stole ALL my jets and took off.
Plus my cheetos! 

Dont care what you really do with them I have moved onto robotics.

Like I said, outrun the speed of thought. I dare you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It can be as happy as you want it to be. There are people in our culture who do it but won't admit it. It really depends on where one places interpersonal values, and what their goals are. Nothing wrong with it. Though in our culture, people usually just shack up rather than get married, or before they do so. Obviously, such things would be a no-go in a Middle eastern society. But in many western societies, especially Anglophone ones, we have what is known as Common Law spouse. In general, it is a term for a generally recognized "marriage", due to the fact both partners have been cohabitating for an agreed period of time (usually a few years). This dates back to the customs of the Anglo-Saxons and Danes, who married in this way. (The common folk, such as serfs and freemen. The nobles usually made more official, formal unions because of the business/social factor). This custom pre-dates Christianity, but even after Christianity came, they never managed to remove that part of Common Law.

And such marriages were driven by attraction/love more than many other factors, since social mobility was limited, and the people you married were likely to be as poor as you, so really, the only logical motive would be feelings of love/attraction/affection.

Chruch/official marriages amongst your average joe is a relatively recent development in much of European history. The Church usually charged people to marry, and alot of the country folk, for many generations after conversion, still clung to many pre-Christian customs.

I am pretty sure that the rural folk in our region probably have marriages that are less formal than us urban folk (and I come from an old urban family, what we would call "elite", so I guess it's more accentuated).

I am not really saying that any type of marriage is inherently superior to the other. I don't like to judge people on such things, nor do I care how they marry. That was not the point of my discussion. I was just voicing my rejection of the notion that love is the most important thing and / or that it should trump practical considerations, but do nto deny its importance. Obviously this is made even more so when it happens to deal with change of the world, Flemeth, divine babies and such. 
But hey, if people want to consider me shallow, oh well.

I should have considered the possibility that it's a cultural thing earlier. I am pretty sure many if not all (who bothered reading all this) were freaked out at me saying that I'll mourn 3 days and then move on, if someone I loved died. That's kind of expected of me and it's a tenant of the faith that I understand and accept  completely and not follow it blindly.

But yea, now I see it's cultural. As always, you're the one who understands me

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am pretty sure that the rural folk in our region probably have marriages that are less formal than us urban folk (and I come from an old urban family, what we would call "elite", so I guess it's more accentuated).

Yes. It's likely a trend in ever civilization/society.

I am not really saying that any type of marriage is inherently superior to the other. I don't like to judge people on such things, nor do I care how they marry. That was not the point of my discussion. I was just voicing my rejection of the notion that love is the most important thing and / or that it should trump practical considerations, but do nto deny its importance. Obviously this is made even more so when it happens to deal with change of the world, Flemeth, divine babies and such. 
But hey, if people want to consider me shallow, oh well.

You, called shallow? Pfft. I'd be more likely to hear Cammen called a handsome stud.

I doubt anyone will really judge you now that they understand the cultural differences. usually such things are given leeway in debates, anyway.

I should have considered the possibility that it's a cultural thing earlier. I am pretty sure many if not all (who botrhered reading all this) were freaked out at me saying that I'll mourn 3 days and then move on, if someone I loved died. That's kind of expected of me and it's a tenant of the faith that I understand and accept  completely and not follow it blindly.

Yes, in most western societies, grief is often expected to last longer (but not too long). In Victorian times, a year of mourning was considered proper. Here in my village in Spain, a widow is expected to mourn five years after the death of a husband. I don't know what the consensus is on proper grieving time, if any, most western societies have, but it is lengthy compared to yours.

But yea, now I see it's cultural. As always, you're the one who understands me

Evil minds think alike! Though it usually takes me a while to get there, too busy drooling over old Alice in Chains videos and reading threads at the same time.

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You would have to factor in chasing them down, and capturing them as well.

Those little bastards stole ALL my jets and took off.
Plus my cheetos! 

Dont care what you really do with them I have moved onto robotics.

Like I said, outrun the speed of thought. I dare you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
You, called shallow? Pfft. I'd be more likely to hear Cammen called a handsome stud.[

I doubt anyone will really judge you now that they understand the cultural differences. usually such things are given leeway in debates, anyway.

Out of conviction or political correctness?
Eh I don't mind. I'll be the last one to say that our culture doesn't have flaws, especially now when it's like we are surrounded by Cailans and Harrowmonts (yes, that's how much I find it depressing. Between brats and blind traditionalists).

Not Cammens, because that would mean it's hopeless. And I don't want that.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yes, in most western societies, grief is often expected to last longer (but not too long). In Victorian times, a year of mourning was considered proper. Here in my village in Spain, a widow is expected to mourn five years after the death of a husband. I don't know what the consensus is on proper grieving time, if any, most western societies have, but it is lengthy compared to yours.

I think for a woman, it's 40 days. For a man, 3 days and he is afterwards expected to go to work and participate in public life as normally as possible.

Something I agree with and I think it's healthy. Though I'd reject extremist opinion that says that a man that mourns longer than that is sinning. Each individual handles things differently. But I think it's a good thing to encourage, to accept it quickly and carry on with your life.

Evil minds think alike! Though it usually takes me a while to get there, too busy drooling over old Alice in Chains videos and reading threads at the same time.

...wha? lol

[Reika]

Hm, well, sorry to interrupt the debate, but I've finally caught up to one of the guest prompts. Hopefully I'll be catching up to the others soon.

Anyway: 'A great many things were assumed that have not held true.'


“So templars are addicted to lyrium?” Lana asked Alistair with horrified disgust in her voice. They were sitting together on one side of the evening campfire as they talked quietly. She had been as delicately as possible trying to find out why he seemed so upset about the templars when they’d been at Kinloch Hold. And something told her that it hadn’t just been Uldred’s rebellion.

She’d been surprised when he opened up to her and told her how the Chantry controlled the templars. Now she was trying to figure out how to ask if he had the same problem, since she was positive Morrigan would have said anything about their lyrium supply being used. However there hadn’t been any comments about mysterious depletions of either lyrium powder or potions.

Alistair chuckled suddenly, “Don’t worry, they didn’t get me with the stuff. I kept coming up with ways of delaying taking my final vows. That’s when you get the first dose. At your final vows. You were trying to figure out how to ask me about that, weren’t you?”

A faint blush crept into her cheeks at his grin. But she nodded her agreement.

“Anyway, I seem to be an exception that my templar abilities work without it. Lucky me.”

Thinking over what she’d seen of the deranged templars in the circle, she shook her head. “I don’t think you’re an exception, Alistair.”

He mockingly placed a hand over his heart and he couldn’t keep the faint grin from tugging at his lips, “Awww, I think you just hurt my manly feelings. All one of them.”

She slanted a glance up at him, “Well, you are exceptional in some ways. But in this case, I meant I don’t think you’re the exception to templars needing lyrium to use their abilities.”

Warm brown eyes gleamed more gold than brown as he looked down at her as he practically purred, “So I’m exceptional, am I? Care to elaborate?” She flushed a bit more at his comment, but didn’t say anything else. Then he sighed and turned serious, “You’re thinking about the templars that were locked away with the mages in the Tower, aren’t you?”

“I am. We saw that one take out Wynne. And while I’m no expert, I have seen you smite plenty of emissaries, then the rogue mages in the tower… Your smite seemed as effective. If not more so since you had better er, well, aim.”

He was tempted to make another witty comment, but while he’d only known her for a month or so, he’d come to know when not to push. Alistair really didn’t want her to hit him, or worse yet, be the one to stitch him up. Again. Of course she used whatever that poison was to numb the wounded area, but he didn’t really want to find out what would happen the day she made a mistake with the stuff.

So instead of one of his witty one liners, he quietly said, “Huh, Duncan told me once that ‘A great many things were assumed that have not held true.’ I guess this is one of those things.”

“In this case, I’m glad that this particular assumption didn’t hold true.”

[Sarah1281]

'A great many things were assumed that have not held true.'


Alistair didn’t like to think of himself as a judgmental person and yet he could safely say that he knew quite a bit about assumptions.
 
When he was born it was assumed that he’d be a threat to Cailan’s rule and so he’d be best tucked away with Cailan’s mother’s brother. It turned out that though his existence wasn’t the best kept secret, those who didn’t want Cailan to rule turned to Bryce Cousland of Highever instead of the not-quite-prince. And maybe Rowan’s brother wasn’t the most sensible choice to send a bastard child of her husband’s no matter how many years she’d be dead by the time he’d even been conceived. Not to mention that as far as secrecy went, an Arl was kind of an unlikely choice.
 
Living at Redcliffe, it had been assumed that he must have been Eamon’s bastard for all that Eamon never admitted it. Eamon had told him the truth about Maric – despite Maric’s wishes, from what he understood – the moment that he had first asked about his parentage. Because the whole point of sending Alistair to Eamon had been to keep Maric’s involvement a secret, Eamon never commented on the rumors and he was never openly asked.
 
It had been assumed that Alistair could have a nice, happy life unburdened by royal responsibilities or the stigma of being a bastard. Alistair really had to wonder if the people making these decisions for him had ever actually spent any length of time with a child or remembered being children themselves. It was one thing if he had been an acknowledged bastard under the protection of his noble father. It was quite another if everyone thought Eamon was ashamed of him and thus wouldn’t care in the slightest if he was perpetually the outcast.
 
It had been assumed that Eamon could be trusted to raise him until adulthood and make sure that he was ready for a commoner’s life. Well…Alistair was pretty sure that that was the plan at first. Then Isolde had come into the picture and even if she didn’t like him and had also firmly believed the rumors of him being her husband’s bastard (for all that he clearly wasn’t a favored son), Alistair still felt that the plan had remained unchanged. Then Isolde had gotten pregnant and feared that the child Eamon had sleeping in the stables and refused to acknowledge might put her own child’s inheritance at risk. Ten was something, he supposed, and he would always be grateful for Eamon for taking him in for that long but it was hardly old enough to go off on his own.
 
It had been assumed that the Chantry would be a good life for him. The Chantry always made sure that those in its service had a place to stay and enough to eat as well as a proper education. It wasn’t just the poor whose parents had died or couldn’t afford them who joined the Chantry, either, but some non-inheriting nobles like Bann Alfstanna’s brother. Alistair had never really just how irreverent he was until he was sent to live at a Chantry and the mandatory not-really-necessary lyrium addiction and arbitrary rules combined to ensure that he was probably better off back in the stables.
 
It had been assumed that the Grey Wardens were obsolete because all of the darkspawn had been killed in the last Blight or, failing that, were simply a dwarven problem. The darkspawn were always a dwarven problem but Alistair had seen firsthand just how badly their first line of defense against the darkspawn was failing. If Bhelen couldn’t turn Orzammar around (and given his complete and utter lack of morals, he’d better be some kind of dwarven messiah) and the city eventually fell then who would stop the darkspawn from regularly harassing the surface world even in the absence of a Blight? Oh, and speaking of…it was really hard for Alistair to see Grey Wardens as ‘obsolete’ when they were the only ones who could sense darkspawn, fight them safely, and kill the Archdemon. Thinking that the Grey Wardens were obsolete and acting accordingly had nearly gotten Ferelden annihilated and there were still at least two Blights to come. Hopefully the Fifth Blight would serve as a cautionary tale but Alistair knew that people had a short memory. He’d do what he could to make people remember them but he would be lucky to see it to fifty.
 
It was assumed that Teyrn Loghain was a great hero who loved Ferelden more than he hated Orlais. Alistair freely admitted that he didn’t really understand Loghain and, to be honest, he didn’t want to. He didn’t agree with the king and didn’t trust the Wardens so he let thousands of his own men die needlessly? What kind of monster did that? Alistair couldn’t deny that Ferelden might still be an offshoot of Orlais if it weren’t for him but that didn’t give him a free pass on everything else. Loghain may have even loved Ferelden but nothing could eclipse his hatred of Orlais and fundamental flaw was why he couldn’t see what was right in front of his face. It was why he was so dangerous and why he had to die. Sure he might have said that suddenly he understood that the Grey Wardens were right and that he had surrendered but Alistair really thought that the past year had spoken for itself and the last thing he wanted was to give Loghain the chance to finally finish what he had begun at Ostagar.
 
It was assumed that Alistair’s mother was a serving maid up at Redcliffe castle. Well…not so much assumed as outright told to Alistair. He’d even met his supposed half-sister and had been supporting her and her children since the Blight ended. By now, he was really an uncle to those children and Goldanna herself had finally deigned to be civil and that wasn’t about to stop. Just the same, one day an Orlesian elven Grey Warden mage named Fiona had come into his life and, well...Even if that could never become public, Alistair did still get some perverse satisfaction over how much Loghain must be rolling over in his grave.
 
It had been assumed that Alistair would never be king. Really, this assumption sat just fine with him and he sometimes half-suspected that he had been purposely raised so that he would be a terrible one. Just the same, Cailan had failed to trust non-traitorous bastards, to have an heir, or to live to see his twenty-sixth birthday and Loghain had failed to both not be a traitorous bastard and to NOT drive the country to civil war in the middle of a Blight. Really, somebody had to step up and by the time the Landsmeet rolled around Alistair was feeling a lot better about his inability to do a worse job than some of the so-called leadership he’d seen.
 
It had been assumed that Alistair would never be able to have a child and so, despite everything, the Theirins really would end with this generation. As Alistair watched his five-year-old daughter holding her baby brother in her arms for the first time, he decided that, of all the assumptions he’d both seen disproven and actively proven false himself, this was his favorite.

[Reika]

@Sarah - I loved that ending.

[Sarah1281]

@Reika: So Alistair didn't really want to believe that they'd been lied to and addicted needlessly and would rather just see himself as a fluke? It's probably easier to deal with. I liked this and loved that the prompt line was advice from Duncan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You two read way too fast.

[Reika]

@Sarah - Yep, that's the way I'd always taken it from that conversation was he initially believed himself to be a fluke. But then again, it might just be my bias because as a player, I was horrified that people in those numbers were being deliberately addicted.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Out of conviction or political correctness? [/quote]

The former, I should hope, especially in a rational debate, since it is certainly a primary factor in many view points.

[quote]Eh I don't mind. I'll be the last one to say that our culture doesn't have flaws, especially now when it's like we are surrounded by Cailans and Harrowmonts (yes, that's how much I find it depressing. Between brats and blind traditionalists).

Not Cammens, because that would mean it's hopeless. And I don't want that. [/quote]

I personally think the crime of breeding Camens justifies the aggression and annihilation of any nation that was capable of producing such abominations. It's crimes against the genepool.

[quote]I think for a woman, it's 40 days. For a man, 3 days and he is afterwards expected to go to work and participate in public life as normally as possible.

Something I agree with and I think it's healthy. Though I'd reject extremist opinion that says that a man that mourns longer than that is sinning. Each individual handles things differently. But I think it's a good thing to encourage, to accept it quickly and carry on with your life. [/quote]

I agree, and it works fine in your society.. When it comes to mourning, attitudes vary as much as marriage. Many societies and cultures don't even permit crying, as they believe it might cause the spirit of the deceased to linger.

When my mother died, i was in mourning for about two years. In the US, that wasn't considered long or strange, but amongst the English who live where I live, longer than 6 months was considered excessive/troublesome. The Spaniards, I think, mourn their mothers for three years.

How one can set a definitive time limit on mourning, though, I'll never understand. Like you said, people have their limits, and will get over death at different, individual rates.

With religion, naturally, there is more encouragement to move on, because they believe the deceased is in some sort of paradise, and is in a better position. But still, the absence of that person can take a long time to cope with.


[quote]
Evil minds think alike! Though it usually takes me a while to get there, too busy drooling over old Alice in Chains videos and reading threads at the same time.

[/quote]
...wha? lol
[/quote]

My favoritest band ever.

[Sarah1281]

Templars are everywhere and every time he sees one he has to face that...The Chantry does a lot of good and then they go and ruin it by pulling stunts like THAT.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You two read way too fast.

Really? Huh.

I hope you know that it's your fault that whenever I so much as mention Bhelen in fanfics I usually work in the words 'dwarven messiah.'

[Reika]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Templars are everywhere and every time he sees one he has to face that...The Chantry does a lot of good and then they go and ruin it by pulling stunts like THAT.

Exactly.

And I do admit that it really does bias me against the Chantry because I've seen addiction issues in my family. So seeing people being deliberately addicted...

Good thing it's just a game.

Edit: KoP - I probably do read a lot faster than most, but I've been a bookworm for most of my life, so that's probably why I burn through stuff so quickly.

Modifié par Reika, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I personally think the crime of breeding Camens justifies the aggression and annihilation of any nation that was capable of producing such abominations. It's crimes against the genepool.

I concur.

Unless they manage to produce a Bhelen, which I very much doubt. I think a Bhelen and a Cammen in the same race would cause a volatile chain reaction taht will make the species self-annihilate anyways.

With religion, naturally, there is more encouragement to move on, because they believe the deceased is in some sort of paradise, and is in a better position. But still, the absence of that person can take a long time to cope with.

True, belief in the afterlife makes it easier for many if not most.
Me? Despite being a believer, I try not to focus on such things, I just take the practical wisdom out of the practise that is independent from the concept of afterlife. Whether it exists or not, for me, doesn't make much of a difference.
Kind of like Suffism, except I reject mysticism (completely).

My position is very complicated and would probably be considered heretical by many  

My favoritest band ever.

Ooh, I see.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You two read way too fast.

Really? Huh.

I hope you know that it's your fault that whenever I so much as mention Bhelen in fanfics I usually work in the words 'dwarven messiah.'

lol yea I noticed

Great prompts Sarah and Reika btw. Yes, I am a slow reader.

[Reika]

Thanks, KoP. And you probably read at a normal speed.

[rak72]

Nice prompts Reika & Sarah!

[LadyDamodred]

Very nice prompt fills. Thank you, ladies.

Sarah: I have to say, I'm greatly enjoying this recent run of fills you've had where you strike a particularly poignant chord and everything isn't so light-hearted and joking. I know not all of your fills are that way, but these are very touching.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:02 .

[Lady Jess]

Very nice. Much more fun than what I've been reading most of the day and *sigh* must continue reading to have my homework done by Midnight tomorrow. I love these classes but my brain hurts. Maybe, just maybe I'll squeeze in time to play again.

[Glorfindel709]

Amazing prompts from both of you ladies

[Reika]

*blushes* Thanks folks. The only good thing about being home sick is that I can play around with story ideas to distract me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nice prompt's, you two. And both mentioning Alistair escaping lyrium addiction!



I wonder what Alistair would be like going through lyrium withdrawals....