39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Somebody wrote...
Queen Moira wasnt like that though, was she? 

Though she has more balls than her father or grandfather, she was reckless and didn't bother to teach her son to even ride a horse.

Stupid.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I wouldn't have been careless enough to father an illegitimate child when I am king.
Unless I lvie in a society where such things don't matter, for instance if it's very patriarchal and the mother of the child doesnt' really matter.

As always, when I speak of the foibles and imperfections of us mere mortals, I don't mean you.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I really fail to see how emotional has to mean not stupid for you. Sometimes it isn't stupid. Sometimes it is.

You always seem to equate the two.  Somehow whenever someone gets emotional, you criticize it as a character flaw.  People can never just be people and have moments of weakness.  I'm sorry we're not all perfect.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Rowan was dead at the time. What did the Gueirrins get besides that? Cailan is on the throne solely because he is a Therein, Rowan being his mother is inconsequential seeing how she is dead. If she was still alive, then that would have been a different scenario. 

So the ones to carry the most influence on Cailan was naturally going to be Anora and her father. Heck, Eamon apparently always knew that Anora was always two steps ahead of the boy. And Loghain may decide that keeping Eamon away and centralizing power is also a means to an end, that's pretty irrlevent. The titles gave Loghain tremendous power, even if it's not something he lusts over.

 
The Guerrins were, and had been, staunch royalists for apparently centuries.  Why would Maric suspect that Eamon would suddenly be dissatisfied with the way things were and begin looking for ways to circumvent that?  That's not the way he thought.  He was trusting, maybe too much so, but that's the way he was.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So all things considered, yes Maric was very careless. You don't give a weapon like that to a family that has a strong chance of feeling alienated, especially if you die. He made a gross misculacutlation and him being emotional does not absolve him from being intelligent. Understandable sure, but unintelligent.

Why would Maric think of his son as a weapon, especially in the hands of his brother-in-law?  Another heir could prove dangerous to Cailan, which is why he was giving him up.  But there was probably more danger in that for Alistair than Cailan.

And Maric srsly shouldn't have planned out his death like that.  What an idiot.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think that some people just dont want to admit that Maric was a terrible father.

Cailan is a moron, and Alistair was well left out in the cold.
Really Fereldan Children's Services should have knocked at his door.

If we take the past 3-4 generations and Calenhad, then moments of stupidity, immaturity and childishness are pretty common in the Therein line.

Shockingly, this is true of nearly every human being on the planet.

Different scales.
Some are more childish and immature than others.

Oh my god, I never knew that!  *dies of shock*

*pus KoP in the army so he can be a shock and awe weapon*

[LadyDamodred]

*puts her theme song for tonight on loop*  NSFW

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ignoring the stuff that completely miss the point and are not relevent to the discussion.

LadyDamodred wrote...
The Guerrins were, and had been, staunch royalists for apparently centuries.  Why would Maric suspect that Eamon would suddenly be dissatisfied with the way things were and begin looking for ways to circumvent that?  That's not the way he thought.  He was trusting, maybe too much so, but that's the way he was.

And what he was was unintelligent.
He was basing his trust because the Gueirrins have always been loyal? Because it's in their genes to be loyal?
And they are loyal to the Crown only and not their interests as nobles in a feudal system?  

Maric knows that the landsmeet is in chaos and knows how unstable this mess of a coutnry is. And he doesn't try to think ahead and calculate what could possibly happen when he dies?
Basing the fate of a nation solely on "hey, Eamon's family have always been loyal, even though they didn't get anything after his father died for Ferelden. But hey, why would they want more?" is stupid.

Fact is. Rowan died. The Mac Tirs rose to power extremily quickly and monumentally. Eamon knows that Loghain partically lives in Denerim and Anora is chosen to be Queen, thus making the hold of the Mac Tirs over Cailan stronger than his own influence. In comparision, the Gueirrins didn't get anything despite the sacrifice of the late Arl. Redcliffe is theirs by right. Rowan dead means they hold little influence compared to before.

All things considered, yes it's very stupid that the man who fashions himself a king responsable for a nation fails to think ahead properly. He wouldn't have been abandonning his son any less if he sent him to a freeholder family. In fact, that would have been a more certain way to make sure that he is never plagued by the misfortune of being a Therein. So the emotional point is moot, he decided to go beyond that when he threw his son away. He threw him in the wrong hands.

Why would Maric think of his son as a weapon, especially in the hands of his brother-in-law?  Another heir could prove dangerous to Cailan, which is why he was giving him up.  But there was probably more danger in that for Alistair than Cailan.

And Maric srsly shouldn't have planned out his death like that.  What an idiot.

For both, Alistair can be used as a weapon to jeopordize Cailan's claim and that was the point of throwing him out. Whether it was more dangerous to Alistair than Cailan is irrelevent (and a more certain way to make sure it doesn't harm Alistair is not to give him to one of the most powerful lords in Ferelden). Doesn't change the fact that he can destablize the system if he was used and he thought giving him to Eamon was a good idea. Smart lad, for the reasons explained above.

And if he did plan his death while his only heir is Cailan, then yes he is an idiot. But we don't know what happened when he died, or if he even died.

EDIT: and this whole "brother in law" is missing the point. Maric's marriage with rowan was planned, for obvious political reasons. It was to secure the alliance with the Guerrins. With rowan dead, the purpose of the marriage is compromised.

This is not a small cute family, with Maric and Eamon being cool in-laws. It's political.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 05:52 .

[errant_knight]

Somebody wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think that some people just dont want to admit that Maric was a terrible father.

Cailan is a moron, and Alistair was well left out in the cold.
Really Fereldan Children's Services should have knocked at his door.

Cailan wasnt that bad, he just wanted to match up to his father. I liked the guy.

Yep, I think this pretty much sums it up and I liked him, too. I don't get the Cailan hate.

[Giggles_Manically]

Maric and Cailan are such bad kings that I wanted to scream.



Maric should not be left in charge of a fast food stand because the first elf he sees... well he would run off going "KATRIEL!!!!"

Then Cailan is a kid in armor who probably spent more time on his hair then learning to be king.



Yeah I dont expect much from the Therin family.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maric and Cailan are such bad kings that I wanted to scream.

Maric should not be left in charge of a fast food stand because the first elf he sees... well he would run off going "KATRIEL!!!!"
Then Cailan is a kid in armor who probably spent more time on his hair then learning to be king.

Yeah I dont expect much from the Therin family.

They are emotional. And thus perfect rulers. 

Who cares about the other not so important things.

[cmessaz]

*looks at the thread title, looks at the posts, looks at the thread title again*

[errant_knight]

Right. well, obviously I feel a tad differently. Now that you've finished cutting up the Theirins can we expect you to move on to the characters that you guys like? Say Morrigan and Leliana? No? Well, have fun with it, I suppose.

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 janvier 2011 - 05:58 .

[Commander of the Grey]

I'm a tad confused. Did Maric not want Alistair on the throne at all? I thought it was because of his bloodline. It's not the least bit possible that he gave him to Eamon instead of a common family in the event that something happened to Cailan? If nothing happened to him and he had an heir, well all the better and Alistair could stay hidden. If that was the reasoning, Alistair would be brought around politics in a way and not completely unfamiliar with it.



I don't know anything about Maric, though. Have the books but haven't read them yet.

[Briiel]

*runs in and does her take on sparta* THIS IS ALISTAIR !!!! *waves sward of truthiness around*



*notices that sward of truthiness looks scary*

[Giggles_Manically]

KoP does do that though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ah yes. Of course, why would I expect a discussion to be allowed in here. It's not like the thread is dying because there is nothing to talk about.

[cmessaz]

Briiel wrote...

*runs in and does her take on sparta* THIS IS ALISTAIR !!!! *waves sward of truthiness around*

*notices that sward of truthiness looks scary*

Man I forgot about the lightsabers!!! I now sort of regret being an archer.

Awww lets all get along!

Modifié par cmessaz, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alistairschica wrote...

I'm a tad confused. Did Maric not want Alistair on the throne at all? I thought it was because of his bloodline. It's not the least bit possible that he gave him to Eamon instead of a common family in the event that something happened to Cailan? If nothing happened to him and he had an heir, well all the better and Alistair could stay hidden. If that was the reasoning, Alistair would be brought around politics in a way and not completely unfamiliar with it. 

If he wanted Alsitair as plan B, it would have been smarter to keep him around Cailan and at court, so they can help each other.
Removing Alsitair from the picture was to make sure that Rowan's memory remains unsinsulted and because lan B would have been to risky.

And if it was the case, I doubt Maric would have authorized Alistair going to the chantry to become a lyrium addicted Templar. Something tells me that having a king with that problem and likely very pro-Chantry bias to be very unwise. It's clear that Maric stopped caring or stopped thinking. Both more likely.

[Briiel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ah yes. Of course, why would I expect a discussion to be allowed in here. It's not like the thread is dying because there is nothing to talk about.

A coin has 2 sides ! Am I right ?? There will always be 2 sides to every story . 2 views to every theory. :wub:

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Ignoring the stuff that completely miss the point and are not relevent to the discussion.

 
It's relevant because I'm tired of having to explain that people are human beings and not machines, and thusly they are not perfect and make mistakes.  And sometimes these mistakes are for emotional reasons.  I am done with explaining that to someone who doesn't get it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And what he was was unintelligent.

*carefully writes down that Maric was an idiot because KoP says so*

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He was basing his trust because the Gueirrins have always been loyal? Because it's in their genes to be loyal?
And they are loyal to the Crown only and not their interests as nobles in a feudal system?

 

Yeah, that's generally how it works.  A family is loyal for centuries so they get more trust and leeway.  It's shocking how that works.  Almost as shocking as how whole families pay because one member a traitor.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Maric knows that the landsmeet is in chaos and knows how unstable this mess of a coutnry is. And he doesn't try to think ahead and calculate what could possibly happen when he dies?
Basing the fate of a nation solely on "hey, Eamon's family have always been loyal, even though they didn't get anything after his father died for Ferelden. But hey, why would they want more?" is stupid.

Yes, I forgot that was the sole thing the fate of the nation rested on.  Silly me.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Fact is. Rowan died. The Mac Tirs rose to power extremily quickly and monumentally. Eamon knows that Loghain partically lives in Denerim and Anora is chosen to be Queen, thus making the hold of the Mac Tirs over Cailan stronger than his own influence. In comparision, the Gueirrins didn't get anything despite the sacrifice of the late Arl. Redcliffe is theirs by right. Rowan dead means they hold little influence compared to before.

Where in game do we see that Eamon is little more than a power hungry individual grasping for as much as he can?  And I mean definitively.  You can think he wants Alistair on the throne so he can control him, but there really isn't any proof.  Maybe he just hides it really, really well, and in that case, how the hell Maric supposed to know?

And you know, people do sacrifice and not expect anything in return.  Particularly when you're loyal and patriotic.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
All things considered, yes it's very stupid that the man who fashions himself a king responsable for a nation fails to think ahead properly. He wouldn't have been abandonning his son any less if he sent him to a freeholder family. In fact, that would have been a more certain way to make sure that he is never plagued by the misfortune of being a Therein. So the emotional point is moot, he decided to go beyond that when he threw his son away. He threw him in the wrong hands.

 
Why is the emotional point moot if it's the reason he did it?  And it worked, or would have, if Loghain hadn't left Cailan to die.  So...except for Cailan's and Loghain's, it worked out great!

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For both, Alistair can be used as a weapon to jeopordize Cailan's claim and that was the point of throwing him out. Whether it was more dangerous to Alistair than Cailan is irrelevent (and a mroe certain way to make ssure it doesn't harm Alsitair is not to give him to one of the most powerful lords in Ferelden). Doesn't change the fact that he can destablizie the system if he was used and he thought giving him to Eamon was a good idea. Smart lad, for the reasons explained above.

I like how giving him up so that he's not in danger equates to throwing him away.  Because that's what every parent who gives their child up does.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And if he did plan his death while his only heir is Cailan, then yes he is an idiot. But we don't know what happened when he died, or if he even died.

That was sarcasm.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:07 .

[TotoroTori]

Giggles_Manically wrote...


Yeah I dont expect much from the Therin family.

I guess now I have to wind up my pitch, eh?

A. This is the Alistair gush thread, so please take the hate somewhere else, heck do in the Cousland fangroup even!

B. People if you look at each great leader, they have had their flaws. Shall I make a list?

C. Don't go talking about one's splinter when you have you own log to deal with.

Yeah the Therin line is made up of some people who didn't make good choices but there where people who also shined and inspired their nation. I mean both Maric and Calian the fool, Anora may have lead the politics but the people loved Calian even with his flaws.

The sin of Loghain was not just letting his son-in-law die, it was that he didn't even try. He was a man who didn't even try to save his BEST friends son, and he doesn't do anything to save his friends second son. Lets not forget Flemmeth's warning about Loghain to Maric "He will betray you each time worse."

Loghain was suppose to be the Therin lines champion but he never has stood to that line.


So I will repost this if I have to.....
If you arn't here to respect Alistair, get out! I want a thread to enjoy, not be ashamed that I f*cken enjoyed this thread...so if your here to bash or hate on my Ali-pup, then GET OUT NOW!

[Thor Rand Al]

I thought this was a gush thread not a bash thread, excuse me for being wrong   *pops bk out of the thread but leaves present before I do*

[Giggles_Manically]

The fangirls are coming out of tah word work.



Notice I said THERIN not Alistair.

I said Maric and Cailan. NOT Alistair.



Whatever.

[errant_knight]

Well said, ladies.

[Commander of the Grey]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistairschica wrote...

I'm a tad confused. Did Maric not want Alistair on the throne at all? I thought it was because of his bloodline. It's not the least bit possible that he gave him to Eamon instead of a common family in the event that something happened to Cailan? If nothing happened to him and he had an heir, well all the better and Alistair could stay hidden. If that was the reasoning, Alistair would be brought around politics in a way and not completely unfamiliar with it. 

If he wanted Alsitair as plan B, it would have been smarter to keep him around Cailan and at court, so they can help each other.
Removing Alsitair from the picture was to make sure that Rowan's memory remains unsinsulted and because lan B would have been to risky.

And if it was the case, I doubt Maric would have authorized Alistair going to the chantry to become a lyrium addicted Templar. Something tells me that having a king with that problem and likely very pro-Chantry bias to be very unwise. It's clear that Maric stopped caring or stopped thinking. Both more likely.

How would he have explained a child hanging around the castle who had no ties to royalty?  Keeping him at the castle, to me, would have been more risky.  As for the Templar thing, maybe it was decided that he have a normal life (if you can call that normal) in the off chance that Calian ruled until he died of old age.  Besides, being a Templar gave him training on how to fight and and other important things that my brain is too tired to name. 

I just say it, thinking that Maric had two sons.  He had to be afraid that the bloodline might come to an end if Calian died and no one knew who Alistair really was.  Hence sending him to Eamon.....just in case. 

My discussion sucks because I don't know the lore as well.

And I agree with Cme...Alistair is the only one allowed to be snarky here.  And Giggles, if he does so in a funny way.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
It's relevant because I'm tired of having to explain that people are human beings and not machines, and thusly they are not perfect and make mistakes.  And sometimes these mistakes are for emotional reasons.  I am done with explaining that to someone who doesn't get it.

A mistake is still a mistake and has to be pointed out.
So irrelevent.

Yeah, that's generally how it works.  A family is loyal for centuries so they get more trust and leeway.  It's shocking how that works.  Almost as shocking as how whole families pay because one member a traitor.

No it doesn't. If the Gueirrins were so loyal than a politically arranged marriage between Maric and Rowan to bolster the alliance would not have been necessary.

Feudal lords always need a reason to be loyal. And that involves material things. Marriages were a common way to secure alliances, which does not imply disinterested nobles.

Yes, I forgot that was the sole thing the fate of the nation rested on.  Silly me.

One of the things.

Where in game do we see that Eamon is little more than a power hungry individual grasping for as much as he can?  And I mean definitively.  You can think he wants Alistair on the throne so he can control him, but there really isn't any proof.  Maybe he just hides it really, really well, and in that case, how the hell Maric supposed to know?

And you know, people do sacrifice and not expect anything in return.  Particularly when you're loyal and patriotic.

Maric is supposed to suspect and think that it's possible. Expect the worse and take it into consdieration. Taht's what rulers are do. But apaprently being a cute emotional human being makes that task irrlevent. 

Yes, that's why they arranged a marriage of convenience and political interests. Please.
It's a fdedal system with lords competing against each other. It's not necessarily ambition as to defend family interests, specially against what can be percieved as Mac Tirian encroachement.

 And it worked, or would have, if Loghain hadn't left Cailan to die.  So...except for Cailan's and Loghain's, it worked out great!

It would have worked when Alistair was sent to the Chantry. Not when he stayed with Eamon and like I said before, I find it unlikley that he did so without being pressured to.

That was sarcasm.

I know. An unwitty response is more appropriate to an unwitty remark, I find.

[inclemency]

Well, I think I just got stomped by that, too...I was actually enjoying the back and forth.  Guess I don`t belong here either.

Modifié par inclemency, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .