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[Tigress M]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Riordan barely knows Alistair and he's seems like a very dedicated Warden who expresses annoyance with the fact that Weisshaupt plays politics in their spare time. I think that when Alistiar issued his ultimatum 'It's him or me!', Riordan saw that he wasn't as dedicated to Warden duties as he should have been. Regardless of reason, a Blight was coming and it was the duty of a Grey Warden to face it. Alistiar showed himself willing to leave and Loghain seemed willing to stay. Even if Loghain died in the Joining, all Riordan saw of Alistair was him possibly being party to his rescue at Howe's and then his willingness to walk away from his duty.

Riordan isn't Alistair's friend and I don't think he particularly cares about him, Loghain, or you as people. He's not about to change his mind to try to convince someone willing to abandon their duty to stay and he both lacks the personal connection to make it a difficult choice to let Alistiar walk out and the inclination to take what Loghain did personally and kill him for his crimes. Justified or not, revenge-seeking doesn't really seem Riordan's style and he's been a Warden for too long to let himself get horrified over the crimes of the prospective Wardens.

If Duncan had lived and for whatever reason hadn't been able to travel to Orlais and Alistair issued that ultimatum, I'm pretty sure that he would have done the same thing.

From my view, it's all about what's practical and has nothing to do with how Riordan feels about or thinks of Alistair.  There's a Blight to stop and a whopping three Wardens around to do it.  I just can't see Riordan gambling on Loghain when it's entirely possible he wouldn't survive the Joining, thereby reducing the number of Wardens on-hand by 1/3.  

Likewise, I don't see Duncan making that choice, either.  But then, if Duncan were there, I don't see Alistair quitting the Wardens.  I can see him arguing with Duncan about the decision but I think he'd back down and follow Duncan's lead.  

Now, there is one way I can your scenario making a little sense and that is if Riordan still believes the Wardens from Orlais were still going to be of some assistance.  From what I remember he knows they were turned back at the border, so I'm not sure how he can assume they'll get here in time, except for the fact that no one knows how quickly the horde is going to move at that point in the story.  But, even here, I think it would have made much more sense to Riordan to stick with the two Wardens he's sure can kill the AD.  

[Sarah1281]

From my view, it's all about what's practical and has nothing to do with how Riordan feels about or thinks of Alistair. There's a Blight to stop and a whopping three Wardens around to do it. I just can't see Riordan gambling on Loghain when it's entirely possible he wouldn't survive the Joining, thereby reducing the number of Wardens on-hand by 1/3.

But if on one of his very first encounters with Alistair he sees a man who is willing to leave the Wardens high and dry in the middle of a Blight if he doesn't get his way on something, how much use can Riordan honestly think Alistiar would be? Maybe he'd also balk at the thought of being asked to kill the Archdemon or threaten to walk over something else. If he doesn't think Alistair will be reliable then Alistair's not going to be much use to him. I think it's a lot like the people who wouldn't trust Loghain to be a Warden and not turn on them even if Alistair would have been willing to stay. They think that the added Warden isn't worth it because the risk of him betraying you is too high and if Riordan thinks that Alistair's not committed to the Wardens and already suspects that he doesn't know some of the harsher aspects of being a Warden then losing him might not be a huge concern.

Edit: I mean, the Wardens need more than just bodies. If you could have a third Warden throughout the game and it was Jory would that really be worth it? Alistair might be nowhere near Jory-level but the Landsmeet does not show him at his most dedicated to stopping the Blight if you even consider sparing Loghain.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 février 2011 - 09:57 .

[Addai]

I can only imagine Riordan assumes, like a lot of players, that Alistair will simmer down and come back, especially if Loghain dies in the Joining.

[Commander of the Grey]

I have since forgotten who said it (sorry) but I agree with the notion that Riordan did it simply for another Grey Warden. Kind of a "He might be executed? Bring him over to our side. We have Darkspawn cookies." type of thing. Duncan recuited our Warden, Jory and Daveth, even though there was an entire Fereldan army at that point. Sometimes even one person can make a difference, which I'm sure was Riordan's thinking. Either Loghain would survive the joining or he wouldn't. No fuss no muss in the long run, aside from Alistair going ape on the decision, which no one expected. Not even our Warden. He probably figured with Loghain's age, he wouldn't live long as a Warden anyway, sacrifice or not. In times of war, I'm sure they don't really think about whether or not someone is worthy. The Grey Wardens recruit from all walks of life, murders/theives, the only thing that matters is stopping the Blight at all costs. Why waste a life when you can try to put it to good use?

[Tigress M]

@Sarah - I understand your point, but I still think the "logical" choice would have been to stick with the demon you know vs the one you don't -- meaning at least he knew Alistair was already a GW and had no idea if Loghain would survive the Joining. Maybe he thought the odds were better that Loghain would survive vs Alistair sticking it out... but to me, that just doesn't make sense.

@Addai - That's exactly what I think, too.

@AC - But that logic doesn't make sense when he's faced with losing one GW, just on the chance he gains another (assuming Loghain doesn't die). But, like Addai just said and I said earlier... I'm guessing he really thought Alistair would come around. It's the only way his decision makes sense, to me.

[Reika]

I know Riordan didn't care about loyalty, but the main reason why my warden can't bring herself to recruit Loghain is that she can't trust him, but he didn't spend a year+ trying to dodge that man's assassins, and trying to make up for what she saw as the man's constant treachery.



Not trying to put anyone's opinion down, but that's the way I saw it from my character's PoV.

[Zjarcal]

Not sure how many have seen this but anyway:

http://social.biowar...1/index/5914712

Modifié par Zjarcal, 03 février 2011 - 12:23 .

[errant_knight]

Alistairschica wrote...

I have since forgotten who said it (sorry) but I agree with the notion that Riordan did it simply for another Grey Warden. Kind of a "He might be executed? Bring him over to our side. We have Darkspawn cookies." type of thing. Duncan recuited our Warden, Jory and Daveth, even though there was an entire Fereldan army at that point. Sometimes even one person can make a difference, which I'm sure was Riordan's thinking. Either Loghain would survive the joining or he wouldn't. No fuss no muss in the long run, aside from Alistair going ape on the decision, which no one expected. Not even our Warden. He probably figured with Loghain's age, he wouldn't live long as a Warden anyway, sacrifice or not. In times of war, I'm sure they don't really think about whether or not someone is worthy. The Grey Wardens recruit from all walks of life, murders/theives, the only thing that matters is stopping the Blight at all costs. Why waste a life when you can try to put it to good use?

Well, they should have expected it, at least once Alistair started talking. No where else in the game does Alistair outright tell the warden what to do. There's no other time when he absolutely refuses to consider something before any discussion has occurred. That conversation had big red warning lights all over it.

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

Not sure how many have seen this but anyway:

http://social.biowar...1/index/5914712

I just saw that in the DA2 thread! Isn't it awesomely done?

[Reika]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, they should have expected it, at least once Alistair started talking. No where else in the game does Alistair outright tell the warden what to do. There's no other time when he absolutely refuses to consider something before any discussion has occurred. That conversation had big red warning lights all over it.

I'll freely admit, my first playthrough that got to the Landsmeet, and Riordan suggested recruiting Loghain, my first thought was "Are you 'effing' kidding me?"

[HolyAvenger]

Whereas when Alistair walked, my thought was "Jeez you're a whiny ****, abandoning your friends and your duty in their hour of need. Thank fark I didn't put you on the throne alone."



I think the Landsmeet reflects incredibly badly on Alistair's lack of harden-the-f*ck-up-sunshine.



Recruiting Loghain is pure pragmatism. He's going to die anyway, why not put him in the field against the Darkspawn and the Archie and make sure his death of some use.

[errant_knight]

Reika wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, they should have expected it, at least once Alistair started talking. No where else in the game does Alistair outright tell the warden what to do. There's no other time when he absolutely refuses to consider something before any discussion has occurred. That conversation had big red warning lights all over it.

I'll freely admit, my first playthrough that got to the Landsmeet, and Riordan suggested recruiting Loghain, my first thought was "Are you 'effing' kidding me?"

Lol! Yeah. I'd planned on pursuing the conversation a little further just to see what info I could get, not with any real intention of sparing Loghain, and I stopped in my tracks at 'Abolutely not!' I could see where that was going, and it was nowhere good.

[errant_knight]

Uh... Why exactly are you here, HolyAvenger? Just curious. Because between your posts yesterday, and that one, it's sure starting to look like an excercise in 'bait the Alistair fans.'

Modifié par errant_knight, 03 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Recruiting Loghain ceases to be pragmatic and sensible the second Alistair balks.

You have no guarantee this guy is going to survive the joining. You have no guarantee he's not going to try to undermine you. On the other hand even if you dislike him you have a bonafide Grey Warden ready and willing to die for the cause who has followed your orders to the letter even if it made him disgusted.

Really? You're really going to go with the guy you're not even sure will live over the one whose already there? The one who constantly undermined you over the one whose followed your orders constantly? The one you don't know from Adam (or not personally) over the guy you've spent the last year or so travelling with?

The second Riordan suggested Loghain and Alistair said hell no I shrugged and off'd the man. Just...not pragmatic without metagaming.

You use the tools you have not the ones you want.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[rak72]

Ryzaki wrote...

Recruiting Loghain ceases to be pragmatic and sensible the second Alistair balks.

You have no guarantee this guy is going to survive the joining. You have no guarantee he's not going to try to undermine you. On the other hand even if you dislike him you have a bonafide Grey Warden ready and willing to die for the cause who has followed your orders to the letter even if it made him disgusted.

Really? You're really going to go with the guy you're not even sure will live over the one whose already there? The one who constantly undermined you over the one whose followed your orders constantly? The one you don't know from Adam (or not personally) over the guy you've spent the last year or so travelling with?

The second Riordan suggested Loghain and Alistair said hell no I shrugged and off'd the man. Just...not pragmatic without metagaming.

You use the tools you have not the ones you want.

This

[Merilsell]

HolyAvenger wrote...

....

*yawns*

Modifié par Merilsell, 03 février 2011 - 02:30 .

[Sarah1281]

You have no guarantee this guy is going to survive the joining. You have no guarantee he's not going to try to undermine you. On the other hand even if you dislike him you have a bonafide Grey Warden ready and willing to die for the cause who has followed your orders to the letter even if it made him disgusted.

Unless, of course, said Grey Warden would have to coexist with someone he can't stand. I really do think that that throws doubt on just how committed he is despite what he's been saying the whole game and I can especially see why Riordan who barely knows him wouldn't be impressed and inclined to give in to Alistair's demands.



Once Alistair draws the line at something - anything - and threatens to walk then I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if it really is just Loghain and he'll do whatever you say forever once Loghain's gone or if there might be other issues that he won't compromise on.



Loghain might not even survive the Joining (but I think his trustworthiness is irrelevant here because if Alistair had agreed to stay then putting Loghain through the Joining would be absolutely worth the risk he die but if you think he'll undermine you then Alistair's presence wouldn't change that) but it's a risk/benefit scenario. Some people think the possibility of having Loghain would be more valuable than the certainty of having Alistair...even if those Wardens are not likely to be found in this thread.



Disclaimer: That wasn't Alistair-bashing. I just tend to think that if someone has one line they won't cross then you can't assume that they're so dedicated to whatever that there might not be others.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Recruiting Loghain ceases to be pragmatic and sensible the second Alistair balks.

You have no guarantee this guy is going to survive the joining. You have no guarantee he's not going to try to undermine you. On the other hand even if you dislike him you have a bonafide Grey Warden ready and willing to die for the cause who has followed your orders to the letter even if it made him disgusted.

Really? You're really going to go with the guy you're not even sure will live over the one whose already there? The one who constantly undermined you over the one whose followed your orders constantly? The one you don't know from Adam (or not personally) over the guy you've spent the last year or so travelling with?

The second Riordan suggested Loghain and Alistair said hell no I shrugged and off'd the man. Just...not pragmatic without metagaming.

You use the tools you have not the ones you want.

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't be back here. But screw it, I like to discuss things with Ryzaki. I'll head out as soon as it's done.

What you are saying is true, but you are forgetting one thing. That the game puts us into an artifical cornor, with a forced dilemna that could have been easily avoided. Why was there no option to emprison Alistair and see what's to be done with him after Loghain's joining? Why was there no option to tell Riordan to explain himself more?

Simply because the game, in its end stages, was rushed and poorly executed and that they tried., and failed, to create a truly meaningful hard choice, by making it feel very forced and avoidable.

If you want to call it metagaming, sure. But when the game destroyed my immersion on its own and decided to force me into an artifical corner that I could have easily gotten out of, I stopped caring.

But like I said many times, if I was confronted with this situation, I would have thrown Alistair in prison. Do the joining, if Loghain dies, I am sure the boy will agree to come back, I dont' care if he likes me or not. If Loghain lives, I'd try harder to convince him. If that fails, beat some sense into him. If that fails, either leave him to rot or execute him. But since the game didn't give me any of those options that have no reason not to exist, then meh, I'll see the situation as picking one of the two and I'll pick the general.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2011 - 02:38 .

[HolyAvenger]

Hang on, I'm not trolling. I like Alistair as a character, but he really frustrates me during the Landsmeet. Expressing that frustration is trolling? Really? Because I feel he has a character flaw or two? Just like every other BioWare character? Did I miss a forum rule that characters can ONLY be praised in their character threads? Because if I did, I'll bow out.



I'm not even sure how thinking there was some FoeYay between Alistair and Morrigan is being critical of Alistair, mind.



The problem with Alistair's behaviour at the Landsmeet is that he really doesn't come across as someone who gets what being a Grey Warden is about. Its about ending the blight no matter what. No matter if you have to sacrifice your life. No matter if you have to work with your worst enemy. Whatever it takes to kill the Archie, the Grey Wardens do. Which is why he walks away at the Landsmeet suffering from severe character deficit (imo).

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't be back here. But screw it, I like to discuss things with Ryzaki. I'll head out as soon as it's done.

What you are saying is true, but you are forgetting one thing. That the game puts us into an artifical cornor, with a forced dilemna that could have been easily avoided. Why was there no option to emprison Alistair and see what's to be done with him after Loghain's joining? Why was there no option to tell Riordan to explain himself more?

Artifical game limitations for dramatization. I'm just as annoyed that Riordan didn't tell you to start with or whisper it in someone's ear while Alistair/Warden were bickering. I'm pretty sure Ali would be glad to have Loghain kick the bucket so he could get his happily ever after. (his being Alistair's.)

Simply because the game, in its end stages, was rushed and poorly executed and that they tried., and failed, to create a truly meaningful hard choice, by making it feel very forced and avoidable.

If you want to call it metagaming, sure. But when the game destroyed my immersion on its own and decided to force me into an artifical corner that I could have easily gotten out of, I stopped caring.

But like I said many times, if I was confronted with this situation, I would have thrown Alistair in prison. Do the joining, if Loghain dies, I am sure the boy will agree to come back, I dont' care if he likes me or not. If Loghain lives, I'd try harder to convince him. If that fails, beat some sense into him. If that fails, either leave him to rot or execute him. But since the game didn't give me any of those options that have no reason not to exist, then meh, I'll see the situation as picking one of the two and I'll pick the general.

Ah true it is metagaming though.
I don't think Anora would've stood for Alistair being thrown in prison and you forget that by handing her the throne you're giving her the cards. She is under no need to do as you say once you give her that crown. Simply look at it as Anora refusing to let Alistair stay alive any longer unless he is exiled or executed.

And really Alistair probably would've agreed to come back if Loghain had died though I don't think you'd have been able to beat sense into him. Alistair doesn't seem the type to yield under physical duress.

Ah to each his own. I'll take my goof ball companion.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think Anora would've stood for Alistair being thrown in prison and you forget that by handing her the throne you're giving her the cards. She is under no need to do as you say once you give her that crown. Simply look at it as Anora refusing to let Alistair stay alive any longer unless he is exiled or executed.

That's also an artificial choice, though. Anora lets Alistair live freely with the Wardens if her father dies but insists on killing/exiling him if he lives.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Unless, of course, said Grey Warden would have to coexist with someone he can't stand. I really do think that that throws doubt on just how committed he is despite what he's been saying the whole game and I can especially see why Riordan who barely knows him wouldn't be impressed and inclined to give in to Alistair's demands.

Right because Riordan is going to put his feelings over what's pragmatic. It dosn't matter if he thinks Alistair's being a baby. He has no guarantee Loghain is going to live. That alone would make someone like Riordan take it back. You already have 3 Wardens. Alistair leaves you have 2 even if Loghain lives you're back at square one. And if Loghain dies you now have one less Warden to feed to Archie. It just makes more sense to keep Alistair no matter how whiny Riordan feels he is. He knows Alistair is willing to die to end the blight. Nothing else matters.

Once Alistair draws the line at something - anything - and threatens to walk then I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if it really is just Loghain and he'll do whatever you say forever once Loghain's gone or if there might be other issues that he won't compromise on.

Really? Even though he's been by the Warden's side (and depeneding on the Warden) helped the Warden do many atrocious things? (slaughtering an innocent dalish clan for instance?). Even if he's told the Warden he utterly despises them but will stay by his/her side to end the blight?

Everyone has one issue they won't compromise on.

Loghain might not even survive the Joining (but I think his trustworthiness is irrelevant here because if Alistair had agreed to stay then putting Loghain through the Joining would be absolutely worth the risk he die but if you think he'll undermine you then Alistair's presence wouldn't change that) but it's a risk/benefit scenario. Some people think the possibility of having Loghain would be more valuable than the certainty of having Alistair...even if those Wardens are not likely to be found in this thread.

Disclaimer: That wasn't Alistair-bashing. I just tend to think that if someone has one line they won't cross then you can't assume that they're so dedicated to whatever that there might not be others.

How is him undermining your authority to your troops irrevelvant?

And sure some do. But let's be honest. How many truly pragmatic people would risk a sure soldier on one that not only has a high risk of dying, but also isn't a guaranteed trustworthy ally? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 02:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Anora would've stood for Alistair being thrown in prison and you forget that by handing her the throne you're giving her the cards. She is under no need to do as you say once you give her that crown. Simply look at it as Anora refusing to let Alistair stay alive any longer unless he is exiled or executed.

That's also an artificial choice, though. Anora lets Alistair live freely with the Wardens if her father dies but insists on killing/exiling him if he lives.

Because he doesn't insist on claiming the throne. Alistair if he doesn't get his way insists on being king and threatens Anora's rule. She's not standing for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Artifical game limitations for dramatization. I'm just as annoyed that Riordan didn't tell you to start with or whisper it in someone's ear while Alistair/Warden were bickering. I'm pretty sure Ali would be glad to have Loghain kick the bucket so he could get his happily ever after. (his being Alistair's.)

Yes, but they didn't make the effort to make it feel plausible.

All it ended up doing was make the Warden feel like "herr derp I don't know what to do except two things. My brain can't handle more than 2 options". I felt like I was playing Fable, honest.

Ah true it is metagaming though.
I don't think Anora would've stood for Alistair being thrown in prison and you forget that by handing her the throne you're giving her the cards. She is under no need to do as you say once you give her that crown. Simply look at it as Anora refusing to let Alistair stay alive any longer unless he is exiled or executed.

How is exiling Alsitair, when she had no guarantee where he would be going and what he would do (and he had no guards to escort him), make him any less dangerous than throwing him in prison under heavy guard?

If Anora could have been convinced to exile Alistair, which is not safe for her (and indeed, a rebellion is mounted in his name), then I see no reason why she would refuse to emprison him, at least for a few minutes till after Loghain's joining.

Also, while yes she becomes Queen, the Warden happens to be the guy with the army. You're the one who put her on the throne, you can easily get her back off in that moment at least. But you dont' even need to pressure her to exile Alistair, so I do not htink she needs much convincing to emprison alsitair for a few minutes.