39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, but they didn't make the effort to make it feel plausible.

All it ended up doing was make the Warden feel like "herr derp I don't know what to do except two things. My brain can't handle more than 2 options". I felt like I was playing Fable, honest.

LOL

How is exiling Alsitair, when she had no guarantee where he would be going and what he would do (and he had no guards to escort him), make him any less dangerous than throwing him in prison under heavy guard?

If Anora could have been convinced to exile Alistair, which is not safe for her (and indeed, a rebellion is mounted in his name), then I see no reason why she would refuse to emprison him, at least for a few minutes till after Loghain's joining.

Also, while yes she becomes Queen, the Warden happens to be the guy with the army. You're the one who put her on the throne, you can easily get her back off in that moment at least. But you dont' even need to pressure her to exile Alistair, so I do not htink she needs much convincing to emprison alsitair for a few minutes.

Simple Alistair is demanding his birthright be recognized. He demands to be king. He refuses to relinquish his claim. That's how he's dangerous. Just like she is when she does the same thing.

She only exiles him because he gives up his birthright? (does he do this? I'm sure he does) and the Warden uses up a boon.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:00 .

[Sarah1281]

Right because Riordan is going to put his feelings over what's pragmatic. It dosn't matter if he thinks Alistair's being a baby. He has no guarantee Loghain is going to live. That alone would make someone like Riordan take it back. You already have 3 Wardens. Alistair leaves you have 2 even if Loghain lives you're back at square one. And if Loghain dies you now have one less Warden to feed to Archie. It just makes more sense to keep Alistair no matter how whiny Riordan feels he is. He knows Alistair is willing to die to end the blight. Nothing else matters.

I did NOT say that. At all. It's not Riordan's feelings or opinion about Alistair. It is a matter of Alistair proving that he is not as devoted to ending the Blight and an ideal Warden would be because he is willing to walk away and Loghain, if nothing else, seeks to save Ferelden above all else.

Really? Even though he's been by the Warden's side (and depeneding on the Warden) helped the Warden do many atrocious things? (slaughtering an innocent dalish clan for instance?).

Now THAT'S metagaming. Say you play a Warden who hasn't done any of those elf-killing sorts of acts. It might look like the very first time you do something Alistiar even slightly has a problem with, he's going to walk. How dependable would someone be if you must do everything there way or they're leaving?

How is him undermining your authority to your troops irrevelvant?

It is not irrelevant in a discussion about whether to spare Loghain. It IS irrelevant, as I said, in a discussion about whether saving Loghain is worth losing Alistair. If you feel that Loghain will undermine your authority/outright sabotage you/join the darkspawn/whatever then why should Alistair staying or going make a damn bit of difference? In a question of if saving Loghain is worth losing Alistair, whether Loghain survives is relevant but any other 'I don't think Loghain would make a worthwhile Warden because...' reasons aren't unless you think that those would somehow be negated by Alistair's presence.

[Sarah1281]

Simple Alistair is demanding his birthright be recognized. He demands to be king. He refuses to relinquish his claim. That's how he's dangerous. Just like she is when she does the same thing.

You know, Alistair never volunteers to give up his birthright. Anora asks him to and he agrees. Anora only asks him if Loghain dies or if you intercede and ask that he not be killed. If you say nothing, she never even asks before carting him off to be killed. How does that make sense?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Simple Alistair is demanding his birthright be recognized. He demands to be king. He refuses to relinquish his claim. That's how he's dangerous. Just like she is when she does the same thing.

She only exiles him because he gives up his birthright? (does he do this? I'm sure he does) and the Warden uses up a boon.

He could have been lying? What if he decided to go to Orlais and ask them to put him back on the throne (a la Louix XVI)? What if he plans to rendez vous with nobles (Eamon) after the Landsmeet and tell them he still wants the throne? It's not like he signed a paper formally relinquishing his claim and even that can be bypassed.

I want to use my boon to emprison Alistair for a few minutes. I'd think he would relinquish his claim regardless, but if he doesn't, a few minutes of expressed audacity that can be silenced afterwards are not going to be more dangerous than letting him go without any guarantee of what he's gona do and where he's going.

Anora can't be that fixated on killing him, that she can't even consider emprisonning him for a few minutes.

[Giggles_Manically]

That would have been interesting is if you hardened and Exiled Alistair he did lead a rebellion.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I did NOT say that. At all. It's not Riordan's feelings or opinion about Alistair. It is a matter of Alistair proving that he is not as devoted to ending the Blight and an ideal Warden would be because he is willing to walk away and Loghain, if nothing else, seeks to save Ferelden above all else.

Yes because clearly Riordan has never seen anyone obsessed with revenge before.

And as Riordan says Warden's aren't an ideal. He would be as aware of people having flaws as anyone. He would see Loghain as a character flaw but not automatic "Oh he'll ditch us first opportunity." especially not considering Alistair has gone all that way.

Now THAT'S metagaming. Say you play a Warden who hasn't done any of those elf-killing sorts of acts. It might look like the very first time you do something Alistiar even slightly has a problem with, he's going to walk. How dependable would someone be if you must do everything there way or they're leaving?

How is it metagaming if I have played a warden like that? And even without those extremes Alistair can disagree with quite a few of the neutral decisions the Warden makes. If you've made a decision Alistair completely agrees with all of the time (which for me is never I can never save Conner and Isolde) then maybe that might be a problem. It never was for my PCs.

It is not irrelevant in a discussion about whether to spare Loghain. It IS irrelevant, as I said, in a discussion about whether saving Loghain is worth losing Alistair. If you feel that Loghain will undermine your authority/outright sabotage you/join the darkspawn/whatever then why should Alistair staying or going make a damn bit of difference? In a question of if saving Loghain is worth losing Alistair, whether Loghain survives is relevant but any other 'I don't think Loghain would make a worthwhile Warden because...' reasons aren't unless you think that those would somehow be negated by Alistair's presence.

What?

So...Alistair being more dependable than Loghain is somehow irrelevant in a discussion on whether the Warden should allow Alistair to walk on a gamble that he/she will recruit Loghain without the man kicking the bucket. Okay then...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:12 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He could have been lying? What if he decided to go to Orlais and ask them to put him back on the throne (a la Louix XVI)? What if he plans to rendez vous with nobles (Eamon) after the Landsmeet and tell them he still wants the throne? It's not like he signed a paper formally relinquishing his claim and even that can be bypassed.

I want to use my boon to emprison Alistair for a few minutes. I'd think he would relinquish his claim regardless, but if he doesn't, a few minutes of expressed audacity that can be silenced afterwards are not going to be more dangerous than letting him go without any guarantee of what he's gona do and where he's going.

Anora can't be that fixated on killing him, that she can't even consider emprisonning him for a few minutes.

He relinquished his claim in front of the entire landsmeet and I'm sure someone there documented it. And that said that's probably why she only releases him if he relinquishes his throne and the PC is on his side via boon or killing Loghain.

Anora may not but he is standing there threatening her throne. Anora gets pretty stabby when it comes to that throne. There's no guarantee Eamon won't try to release him later either/Alistair won't escape. *Heck he could've done just that not too many moments before!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He could have been lying? What if he decided to go to Orlais and ask them to put him back on the throne (a la Louix XVI)? What if he plans to rendez vous with nobles (Eamon) after the Landsmeet and tell them he still wants the throne? It's not like he signed a paper formally relinquishing his claim and even that can be bypassed.

I want to use my boon to emprison Alistair for a few minutes. I'd think he would relinquish his claim regardless, but if he doesn't, a few minutes of expressed audacity that can be silenced afterwards are not going to be more dangerous than letting him go without any guarantee of what he's gona do and where he's going.

Anora can't be that fixated on killing him, that she can't even consider emprisonning him for a few minutes.

He relinquished his claim in front of the entire landsmeet and I'm sure someone there documented it.

Anora may not but he is standing there threatening her throne. Anora gets pretty stabby when it comes to that throne.

Need I remind you that we are talking about Ferelden here? Someone documented it? Ha
He has to be under oath and swear on something, like the Maker, for it to have any validity and even that is a weak guarantee.

And Alistair is not really threatening her throne, because no one is listening to him. The only one who potentially threatens her throne is the Warden. If the Warden is on her side, then Alistair's claim is not really serious, especially considering how he argued for it.

So I do think that Anora could have been convinced to emprison alsitair for a few minutes. I don't think she's that unreasonable.

EDIT: as for Eamon. Sure, just like there is no guarantee that Eamon wouldn't try to contact Alsitair after the Landsmeet. So if she agreed to exiling him, I see no reason why she wouldn't agree to emprison him.

Besides, I doubt a few minutes are sufficient for Eamon to try and pull off a coup. The Warden is declared the leader of Ferelden's army. I do not think he would be so unwise as to anger me at that moment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2011 - 03:15 .

[Ryzaki]

^I do. So we're probably not going to agree.

Plus without Alistair the Warden can't threaten her throne. Alistair needs the Warden but the Warden needs either him/Anora more.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:17 .

[Ryzaki]

I mean Alistair and the Warden have been together for at least a year at this point. They've been through hell together. Alistair isn't just going to up and ditch the Warden for a minor squabble. Hell they might've been doing that while utterly loathing each other the whole time.

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, Alistair never volunteers to
give up his birthright. Anora asks him to and he agrees. Anora only
asks him if Loghain dies or if you intercede and ask that he not be
killed. If you say nothing, she never even asks before carting him off
to be killed. How does that make sense?

He agrees happily and relinquishes it.

It
makes sense because Anora doesn't want him to live to threaten her
father. If her father's dead she probably sees no need to do so because
(in addition to Alistair having a good chance of executing Loghain in
the first place) it's more risky than the when the Warden slams Alistair
down for his revenge and leaves Alistair feeling betrayed in the middle
of the landsmeet. Anora just delivers the final blow in that case.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

^I do. So we're probably not going to agree.

Plus without Alistair the Warden can't threaten her throne. Alistair needs the Warden but the Warden needs either him/Anora more.

I think a Cousland can (and that's why I think Anora agrees to marry him. To coopt a potetnial threat), but that has been debated to death.

Sure the Warden can't threatend her throne alone. If she refuses to emprison Alistair, I could just remind her that my loyalties are very fluid and that Alsitair is just standing there. I can change my mind easily.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

I mean Alistair and the Warden have been together for at least a year at this point. They've been through hell together. Alistair isn't just going to up and ditch the Warden for a minor squabble. Hell they might've been doing that while utterly loathing each other the whole time.

Well I leave him at camp, and don't use him. And was not that imrpessed with him. So eh.

And for me, him leaving at the Landsmeet was for a petty reason.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote..

Well I leave him at camp, and don't use him. And was not that imrpessed with him. So eh.

And for me, him leaving at the Landsmeet was for a petty reason.

Well the game assumes everyone travels with you in the deep roads. How else would that party picker show up.

I don't see it as petty. Differences of opinion and all that jazz.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think a Cousland can (and that's why I think Anora agrees to marry him. To coopt a potetnial threat), but that has been debated to death.

Sure the Warden can't threatend her throne alone. If she refuses to emprison Alistair, I could just remind her that my loyalties are very fluid and that Alsitair is just standing there. I can change my mind easily.

Indeed.

Ah true. A good threat goes a long way. But what if she called your bluff?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Well the game assumes everyone travels with you in the deep roads. How else would that party picker show up.

I don't see it as petty. Differences of opinion and all that jazz.

Always comes to that yea. Eh, despite everything, the game still manages to polarize. I can't bring myself to hate it, even though I'm tempted.

Anyways, a pleasure as always.

Now I'll show myself outofthe thread. Cheers

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Indeed.

Ah true. A good threat goes a long way. But what if she called your bluff?

Insist forcifully. But I guess we have very different views on Anora

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Insist forcifully. But I guess we have very different views on Anora

Now KoP you shouldn't state the obvious!

Though why are you leaving?

[Giggles_Manically]

There are a few who dont appreciate his presence.

Or mine in here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Though why are you leaving?

I overstayed my welcome and my interest has wained.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Though why are you leaving?

I overstayed my welcome and my interest has wained.

Will you at least lurk?

And what do you mean overstayed your welcome. It's not like you're one of those drooling morons that go on a thread and mindless bash a character.

You present some views on Alistair that I find intriguing even if I don't agree with them. Isn't that what character discussion threads are about? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Will you at least lurk?

And what do you mean overstayed your welcome. It's not like you're one of those drooling morons that go on a thread and mindless bash a character.

You present some views on Alistair that I find intriguing even if I don't agree with them. Isn't that what character discussion threads are about? 

Not sure I'd lurk (for what, Ali pics? lol).

Well this is a gush thread, not a discussion thread.
I get reminded of that a lot, so I finally decided to get the hint.

[Sarah1281]

How is it metagaming if I have played a warden like that? And even without those extremes Alistair can disagree with quite a few of the neutral decisions the Warden makes. If you've made a decision Alistair completely agrees with all of the time (which for me is never I can never save Conner and Isolde) then maybe that might be a problem. It never was for my PCs.

You said that it's not reasonable to think that Alistair drawing a line about Loghain means that he will draw a line over other things he disagrees about. You cite the fact that he will stand by you when you slaughter the Dalish and other things as an example. Well, what if your Warden literally hasn't done anything Alistair disagrees with save allowing some companions he'd rather not follow you around? It would be metagaming to say that of course Alistair won't walk because he's fine with all of those horrible things you never did.

What? So...Alistair being more dependable than Loghain is somehow irrelevant in a discussion on whether the Warden should allow Alistair to walk on a gamble that he/she will recruit Loghain without the man kicking the bucket. Okay then...

Why the hell can't I get this point across? It's really not complicated.



Okay, I'll try to make it as simple as I possible can.



Do you believe Loghain will undermine the Warden? If yes, do you think Alistair being there will have anything to do with it? Will Loghain only undermine the Warden if Alistair is there because he still sees Alistair as a threat to his daughter's throne? Will Loghain only undermine the Warden if Alistair is NOT there because Alistair won't be around to watch him and make sure he doesn't get a chance to do it?



Whether you can trust Loghain not to undermine you is ALWAYS important. If you think he will do that then you should NOT spare him. If we were talking about just sparing him in general without discussing Alistair at all then that would matter.



We are not talking about letting Loghain live in general. We are talking about whether it is worth to let Loghain undergo the Joining if it costs you Alistair.



If you are determined to kill Loghain because you think he will undermine you or for whatever other reason then it doesn't really matter how Alistair would react to Loghain living because he won't. If you are looking at it from a 'how many Wardens will I have' perspective then Alistair being willing to stay or leave does matter. If Alistair is willing to stay then (only looking at numbers) it would be SO worth it to spare Loghain since worst case scenario you'll still have three Wardens and you might get another one.



If you think that Loghain will undermine you, however, then please tell me why Alistair staying or going makes a difference? If Alistair was wililng to stay, would it make sense to spare someone you think will undermine you? No, it would not. Therefore, I do not feel an argument about whether Loghain will try to undermine you is relevant to whether putting Loghain through the Joining is worth losing Alistair.



So, just to make absolutely clear that you get my point this time: if Loghain is trying to undermine you then you shouldn't spare him. Whether he is trying to do this is relevant to a discussion about sparing him. A discussion about whether sparing him is worth losing Alistair is already assuming that you don't think he will undermine you or else you wouldn't even get to the point where Alistair threatens to walk out.

[Lady Mimzy]

Here's my take on this: Riordan hasn't got a clue that we don't know how to kill the AD at this point. He thinks Duncan has told us before he died. Else he wouldn't be saying sorry so much at the castle later.



By the time the LM comes, My first PC was so pissed off at Loghain that not only did she kill him, she would have taken great delight in dancing on his dead body. There was no way she would have him in the Greys when she couldn't even trust him has far as she could have thrown the man. To her, he was the most devious Shem ever. What's to say that if she did allow the Joining, that he wouldn't try to undermined her and try to take over the army she had gathered without him.



Yes, she was a city elf and after what she saw done to her family and friends killing him once would not have been enough. I mean this guy had left them on the field to die, then placed a bounty on their heads but the final straw was the alienage.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You said that it's not reasonable to think that Alistair drawing a line about Loghain means that he will draw a line over other things he disagrees about. You cite the fact that he will stand by you when you slaughter the Dalish and other things as an example. Well, what if your Warden literally hasn't done anything Alistair disagrees with save allowing some companions he'd rather not follow you around? It would be metagaming to say that of course Alistair won't walk because he's fine with all of those horrible things you never did.

Ah so if my Warden has done nothing Alistair disagreed with I might have that issue. None of my wardens have done everything Alistair agrees with.

So personally I never had that issue.

The only way I would've had that issue is if I had metagamed. (The Connor situation being the main offender). My PC has said plenty of things Alistair didn't agree with (insulting Duncan, teasing him but him taking it seriously, on and on).

Why the hell can't I get this point across? It's really not complicated.

Okay, I'll try to make it as simple as I possible can.

Do you believe Loghain will undermine the Warden? If yes, do you think Alistair being there will have anything to do with it? Will Loghain only undermine the Warden if Alistair is there because he still sees Alistair as a threat to his daughter's throne? Will Loghain only undermine the Warden if Alistair is NOT there because Alistair won't be around to watch him and make sure he doesn't get a chance to do it?

A mixture of all of those to be honest. Loghain might try to get rid of the threat of Alistair for his daughter's interest, if Alistair's gone he might make a decision he think is "best" and screw the Warden over. (What if the Warden decided to wait for Orlesian reinforcements?)

Whether you can trust Loghain not to undermine you is ALWAYS important. If you think he will do that then you should NOT spare him. If we were talking about just sparing him in general without discussing Alistair at all then that would matter.

We are not talking about letting Loghain live in general. We are talking about whether it is worth to let Loghain undergo the Joining if it costs you Alistair.

And I don't.

Yes..we are. Even if I completely trusted him the risk of him dying is still very real.

If you are determined to kill Loghain because you think he will undermine you or for whatever other reason then it doesn't really matter how Alistair would react to Loghain living because he won't. If you are looking at it from a 'how many Wardens will I have' perspective then Alistair being willing to stay or leave does matter. If Alistair is willing to stay then (only looking at numbers) it would be SO worth it to spare Loghain since worst case scenario you'll still have three Wardens and you might get another one.

If you think that Loghain will undermine you, however, then please tell me why Alistair staying or going makes a difference? If Alistair was wililng to stay, would it make sense to spare someone you think will undermine you? No, it would not. Therefore, I do not feel an argument about whether Loghain will try to undermine you is relevant to whether putting Loghain through the Joining is worth losing Alistair.

So, just to make absolutely clear that you get my point this time: if Loghain is trying to undermine you then you shouldn't spare him. Whether he is trying to do this is relevant to a discussion about sparing him. A discussion about whether sparing him is worth losing Alistair is already assuming that you don't think he will undermine you or else you wouldn't even get to the point where Alistair threatens to walk out.

I was looking at it from both perspectives. Both a how likely is Loghain to obey me and is it worth losing Alistair over. Both of those I personally found lacking. I probably confused you by mentioning them in the same sentence but they were supposed to be different reasonings.

Alistair staying in the undermining situation matters ecause he's more likely to get up in arms about it and it'll cause a lot of undue friction (this is of course in the unlikely event that my PC can convince him to stay), Alistair leaving defintely in the undermining situation would result in Loghain's death. If I didn't think Loghain would undermine me my PC might be concerned about friction between Alistair and Loghain but in the case of Alistair leaving wouldn't be.

Not really because thinking he might undermine me follows the same logic as thinking he might die. If that's the case I never should've reached the point where I considered losing him over Alistair.

Maybe isn't a definite after all and some PCs might find it worth the risk. I just don't see a particularly pragmatic PC as doing such.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 février 2011 - 03:54 .

[Persephone]

Lady Mimzy wrote...
There was no way she would have him in the Greys when she couldn't even trust him has far as she could have thrown the man. To her, he was the most devious Shem ever. What's to say that if she did allow the Joining, that he wouldn't try to undermined her and try to take over the army she had gathered without him.

 

You do realize that he wouldn't stand a chance at that? Why would your allies listen to him? Why would he, finally seeing the necessity of the Grey Wardens, turn on the only thing standing between him and execution? Loghain isn't stupid or malicious.

He'll even tell you that if you do ask him about leading armies....that he can advise you but that these are your armies, that you have raised out of nothing and that even though he will do anything in his power to support you as a general, you must lead these armies.