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[ColaQueen]

alisgirl wrote...

SilverSentinel wrote...

My warden is often selfless, but there is a limit

Alistair: so now that I am King, I don't think we can be together anymore
Lorialis Cousland: you so did not just say that to me Alistair
Alistair: the thing is now that I am....{{{gargle, gargle, hrmph}}} owy! >>>Alistair dies
Lorialis Cousland: Awww, it fell down.

Oh, definitely. And he's not even particularly sympathetic if you try to discuss it again. On my next playthrough he finally mentioned the heir problem when I said, "Actually, I don't think there's a future for us," and suddenly he seemed weak or conniving for having "withheld" it all that time the first time.

Is he just so convinced (if unhardened) that he won't become king that it doesn't even occur to him to mention it?

Quite possibly an effect of the hardening, at least this the way I looked at it. BTW my first character was an Elf and not a Cousland, I just use my current character as an example of what messing with knife wielding warrior women can do especially when they've invested a lot of emotion into a guy for him to whimp out after she made him king!

The next time he died and it was tragic and heartbreaking and she wandered the land mourning him and all of Fereldan was grateful for his sacrifice. Then she got it on with Zevran.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I could've sworn Gaider debunked this.

The Warden (the taint specifically) is a conduit so any Warden must still kill the Archdemon for the soul to transfer. Supposedly.

Edit: That said I can't find the quote for the life of me. Too long ago.

So the Archdemon soul has to be transfered to a Warden, and then to the baby?
But Morrigan said that the Archdemon soul would follow the child like a beacon. I do not remember her specifying anything, and Riordan wouldn't know as he wouldn't be accustomed to a DR.

Oh well, the game failed to convey that impression with its vagueness, and since my Warden did not have the luxury of reading Gaider's comment, it wouldn't matter in the game.

This is the lore I used in my FF the warden slaying the Archdemon gets to experience real death for a few moments when Archie's soul enters his then it moves on to the child...  I wrote this up then I recall reading Gaider's comment recording that this was how he saw it.

Modifié par Maria13, 04 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[Tigress M]

Mornin' folks!

[Collider]

I do think the hardening of Alistair was mishandled.

[Tigress M]

@Collider - I completely agree. To have it narrowed down to one dialog option in one conversation makes it seem so forced. It would have been better to see more triggers and then a gradual change come over him. imho

[Persephone]

Collider wrote...

I do think the hardening of Alistair was mishandled.

This. The vanilla line is about being self centered and self-absorbed rather than about growing, maturing and behaving responsibly. And I hate that change in him. But I nearly always do it, as I want no more Drunkistair and I'll not have him executed either.

[Tigress M]

@Persephone - Agreed. I never chose that line in the first six months of playing because I didn't know about hardening Alistair and none of my characters would ever say that to him. Now, it's a little better with IRS-A and the softer line, but still... it's usually a complete break from character to choose it and the only reason I do is because I refuse to have an unhardened Alistair around.

[Persephone]

Tigress M wrote...

@Persephone - Agreed. I never chose that line in the first six months of playing because I didn't know about hardening Alistair and none of my characters would ever say that to him. Now, it's a little better with IRS-A and the softer line, but still... it's usually a complete break from character to choose it and the only reason I do is because I refuse to have an unhardened Alistair around.

Maker, BLESS IRS. My characters see the necessity to help the boy grow a spine but I saw more dramatic impact in what happened to Maric through the whole Katriel situation. THAT had actual story telling value, gutwrenching drama, character growth and....long reaching consequences. (I doubt Maric would have cared a jota if Loghain had just said "Well, everyone's out for themselves, bro!" 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
but I saw more dramatic impact in what happened to Maric through the whole Katriel situation. THAT had actual story telling value, gutwrenching drama, character growth and....long reaching consequences. (I doubt Maric would have cared a jota if Loghain had just said "Well, everyone's out for themselves, bro!" 

I only saw Maric going bezerk in a blind rage, completely unable to control himself. I do not see that as mature at all, nor a healthy point to start with. Katriel needed to die, but not in a blind rage. 
If Loghain expected Maric to react this way, then meh, I continue to fail to see what he saw in him.

My point is, I do not quite see how murdering someone in a blind rage because you're that messed up and weak, is supposed to reveal any wisdom to you. Perhaps maybe it led Maric to realize how weak he is and how unsuitable he'd be as king if he'd kill people if he goes bezerk? 
Had he killed Katriel knowing full well what he was doing, realizing that ruthelessness is sometimes required to be an efficient king, then I'd agree.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 01:08 .

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
but I saw more dramatic impact in what happened to Maric through the whole Katriel situation. THAT had actual story telling value, gutwrenching drama, character growth and....long reaching consequences. (I doubt Maric would have cared a jota if Loghain had just said "Well, everyone's out for themselves, bro!" 

I only saw Maric going bezerk in a blind rage, completely unable to control himself. I do not see that as mature at all, nor a healthy point to start with. Katriel needed to die, but not in a blind rage. 
If Loghain expected Maric to react this way, then meh, I continue to fail to see what he saw in him.

My point is, I do not quite see how murdering someone in a blind rage because you're that messed up and weak, is supposed to reveal any wisdom to you. Perhaps maybe it led Maric to realize how weak he is and how unsuitable he'd be as king if he'd kill people if he goes bezerk? 
Had he killed Katriel knowing full well what he was doing, realizing that ruthelessness is sometimes required to be an efficient king, then I'd agree.

For once we are in agreement.  I saw Katriel's killing as disturbing both in the way it was carried out, summarily and by surprise and the prime motivation behind which seems that for Maric was to impress Loghain with his decisiveness.

I have said before that it would have been more appropriate to inform Kat of what had been found out and give her a chance to defend herself or even the option of being used as a double-agent.

As it is, it looks just like a brutal murder.

Modifié par Maria13, 04 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[Mariefoxprice83]

Just wanted to add my thoughts on Alistair. I like his sarcasm but he can be annoyingly winy at times but he has a good heart so I like him mostly. He did annoy me first time round when he didnt t get on with my character due to her sacrifice of Isolde - I wonder if he would have preferred me to murder her young son even though she was willing to make the sacrifice. I hadn't fully figured out the approval system at that point - didn't even notice the meter for it until towards the end of that game so I didn't get to befriend him. He was pretty mad with my girl for telling him to be king but he still made a great morale boosting speech before the Battle of Denerim and another nice one in the throne room. I did get to brienf him in my second game. He was much better on that one until I chose to recruit Loghain- - my guy on that version was seriously screwed up making a mix of good and bad decisions. Both Wynne and Alistair ditched him when he made choices they didn't like but he had got on well with them before then.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
For once we are in agreement.  I saw Katriel's killing as disturbing both in the way it was carried out, summarily and by surprise and the prime motivation behind which seems that for Maric was to impress Loghain with his decisiveness.

A deciveness Maric fails to show spectacularily.

I do not mind what Loghain did in principle, unless he was actually satisfied with the results or liked what he saw from Maric (which is possible, I don't remember the scene that well). If he did, then he should really learn to just stick to the military and be as marginally related to politics and wisdom as possible. If he didn't, then it's about time for him to realize that Maric is not what he thinks he is.

[ColaQueen]

Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

Just wanted to add my thoughts on Alistair. I like his sarcasm but he can be annoyingly winy at times but he has a good heart so I like him mostly. He did annoy me first time round when he didnt t get on with my character due to her sacrifice of Isolde - I wonder if he would have preferred me to murder her young son even though she was willing to make the sacrifice. I hadn't fully figured out the approval system at that point - didn't even notice the meter for it until towards the end of that game so I didn't get to befriend him. He was pretty mad with my girl for telling him to be king but he still made a great morale boosting speech before the Battle of Denerim and another nice one in the throne room. I did get to brienf him in my second game. He was much better on that one until I chose to recruit Loghain- - my guy on that version was seriously screwed up making a mix of good and bad decisions. Both Wynne and Alistair ditched him when he made choices they didn't like but he had got on well with them before then.

Ah well, that is the beauty of the game, each pc you create can be completely different and make different choices and hence get different results.

Just a note on the Alistair whinge about Isolde. I just did this last night. He throws a little hissy fit, but there should be a persuade line that will make him calm down. You'll still get -10 in dissaproval, however you should have picked up his mothers amulet by then so just give it to him and he should give you +12 if you tell him he means more to the arl and then yourself than he thinks. This basically cancels that dissaproval.

He can be whiney, but it's pretty easy to distract him with shiny objects and decent persuasion skills.  Which in a way makes him weak willed and slightly more annoying at times than the actual whinyness. Sometimes I do wish he would just man up about stuff. He's no Carth Onassi that's for sure. Sorry ladies.

[Mariefoxprice83]

Hah! I think the highest my first character ever got with him was +10. It was about +6 by the end. And this is with the Amulet as well! I must have picked some horrific dialogue options with him...

[ColaQueen]

@Mariefoxprice83 He can be a little too easy to ****** off...if he wasn't so darn purtty

[Mariefoxprice83]

I will have to be really careful next time then because I want to romance him. :-)

[RagingCyclone]

Just running by to say good morning Cat

[errant_knight]

SilverSentinel wrote...

alisgirl wrote...

SilverSentinel wrote...

My warden is often selfless, but there is a limit

Alistair: so now that I am King, I don't think we can be together anymore
Lorialis Cousland: you so did not just say that to me Alistair
Alistair: the thing is now that I am....{{{gargle, gargle, hrmph}}} owy! >>>Alistair dies
Lorialis Cousland: Awww, it fell down.

Oh, definitely. And he's not even particularly sympathetic if you try to discuss it again. On my next playthrough he finally mentioned the heir problem when I said, "Actually, I don't think there's a future for us," and suddenly he seemed weak or conniving for having "withheld" it all that time the first time.

Is he just so convinced (if unhardened) that he won't become king that it doesn't even occur to him to mention it?

Quite possibly an effect of the hardening, at least this the way I looked at it. BTW my first character was an Elf and not a Cousland, I just use my current character as an example of what messing with knife wielding warrior women can do especially when they've invested a lot of emotion into a guy for him to whimp out after she made him king!

The next time he died and it was tragic and heartbreaking and she wandered the land mourning him and all of Fereldan was grateful for his sacrifice. Then she got it on with Zevran.

A break up deserves death? Ouch.

[tuppence95]

errant_knight wrote...

SilverSentinel wrote...

alisgirl wrote...

SilverSentinel wrote...

My warden is often selfless, but there is a limit

Alistair: so now that I am King, I don't think we can be together anymore
Lorialis Cousland: you so did not just say that to me Alistair
Alistair: the thing is now that I am....{{{gargle, gargle, hrmph}}} owy! >>>Alistair dies
Lorialis Cousland: Awww, it fell down.

Oh, definitely. And he's not even particularly sympathetic if you try to discuss it again. On my next playthrough he finally mentioned the heir problem when I said, "Actually, I don't think there's a future for us," and suddenly he seemed weak or conniving for having "withheld" it all that time the first time.

Is he just so convinced (if unhardened) that he won't become king that it doesn't even occur to him to mention it?

Quite possibly an effect of the hardening, at least this the way I looked at it. BTW my first character was an Elf and not a Cousland, I just use my current character as an example of what messing with knife wielding warrior women can do especially when they've invested a lot of emotion into a guy for him to whimp out after she made him king!

The next time he died and it was tragic and heartbreaking and she wandered the land mourning him and all of Fereldan was grateful for his sacrifice. Then she got it on with Zevran.

A break up deserves death? Ouch.

*blink*  

I think I wandered into the wrong thread.

*backs out quickly*

[Elysis]

^ My thoughts exactly! 

Maybe It's just me, but I saw the whole "will have to chose between duty and love" thing right from the begining. Maybe it's because I'm a sucker for tragedies, but still.

After a bad breakup, nothing's better then killing some darkspawn!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elysis wrote...
Maybe It's just me, but I saw the whole "will have to chose between duty and love" thing right from the begining. Maybe it's because I'm a sucker for tragedies, but still.

I find it somewhat hypocritical that this same individual is not being consistent with the belief that duty should overweight feelings.

So when put that way, I can understand why players can be very annoyed at this. They'd probably argue that love is supposed to be a more powerful motivator than revenge. Evidently not for some people.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 05:08 .

[Catspaw]

@ Rage - *long string of monosyllabic babbling*
That should clear up my migraine. Have screen turned down really low so my head won't explode.
*gulp*
Best thing to happen to me all day. To quote Morrigan, "You have my thanks"...

Modifié par Catspaw, 04 février 2011 - 05:35 .

[rak72]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elysis wrote...
Maybe It's just me, but I saw the whole "will have to chose between duty and love" thing right from the begining. Maybe it's because I'm a sucker for tragedies, but still.

I find it somewhat hypocritical that this same individual is not being consistent with the belief that duty should overweight feelings.

So when put that way, I can understand why players can be very annoyed at this. They'd probably argue that love is supposed to be a more powerful motivator than revenge. Evidently not for some people.

The GW's were slaughtered because of Loghain once.  Alistair is the one being practical at the LM.  Why should he stick around to have Loghain throw them under the bus again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...
The GW's were slaughtered because of Loghain once.  Alistair is the one being practical at the LM.  Why should he stick around to have Loghain throw them under the bus again.

Assuming that it's true, for the sake of argument (I think he left because he couldn't control himself, not because he feared for his life), then Alistair clearly puts his own survival above duty. Point still stands to those who argue that Alistair is very duty minded.

[Tigress M]

I'm probably going to get beaten up over this, but I have to say it. I don't get why people think Alistair is whiny. Yes, he complains -- thank the Maker! He has opinions and isn't afraid to express them. I learned this more than ever when I played Randi, my diced Warden. She was terrible at picking lines that pissed Alistair off, but his reaction to what she'd said wasn't unreasonable. She was being a B!tch!

The fact that he sticks by the Warden for so long shows just how dedicated to his duty. The fact that he has a line he won't cross regarding Loghain... I don't like it and I don't agree with it, but it adds depth to his character. Reminds me of Meatloaf's song... "I would do anything for love... but I won't do that." He does have a limit to how much BS (or what he perceives as BS) he'll put up with.

Flame away... it won't change my opinion of him, nor the reasons why I like him so much.