39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Jess]

Maria13 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

He's one of the few that know who Alistair really is too. Especially if Fiona is truly the Mom he IS going to care what Alistair wants. Clearly Eamon never did. And that's who raised him.

Well it was either Alistair or Isolde... he made the right decision imo.

Not sure he had to make this decision at all. Pretty certain he could have pursuaded Isolde with a little determination, but he just didn't care to.

And in saying the decision was right, surely you mean the right (i.e. selfish) decision for Eamon... Not morally the right decision because it involves dumping the child.... Like an unwanted puppy after Christmas.

For Axe it's right because he loves Isolde and hates Alistair:)

But we adopted him, like a dumped puppy after Christmas

[Maria13]

We found our cat scavenging in a car park a few days after Christmas, he was just beyond kittenhood. We always assumed he was dumped.

[Sarah1281]

Not sure he had to make this decision at all. Pretty certain he could have pursuaded Isolde with a little determination, but he just didn't care to.

Technically, it wasn't her decision at all. He could have just ignored her but I think that Alistair was sent away around the time Isolde was pregnant/Connor was born so she wanted him gone to protect Connor's status as heir. I'm not sure if she knew that Alistair was Maric's and if she didn't everyone else thought he was Eamon's. I'm not sure I can blame her for wanting to protect her child (at least this time it didn't lead to untold death and destruction) and the Chantry was supposed to be a good alternative for Alistair. Bann Alfstanna's own brother is a templar and he seemed perfectly happy there before being imprisoned for spotting Jowan before Loghain's forces did.



Maybe Alistair wasn't happy there but it's not like he kept in contact with Eamon so he could mention why he hated it. 'I can't make friends' is pretty horrible for a child but not really a reason everyone would accept to change someone's career path.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Elysis wrote...

@Fenris : Welcome! Have a nakkid Alistair!

I'll take it!

Thanks for the warm, warm welcome indeed. :3

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not sure he had to make this decision at all. Pretty certain he could have pursuaded Isolde with a little determination, but he just didn't care to.

Technically, it wasn't her decision at all. He could have just ignored her but I think that Alistair was sent away around the time Isolde was pregnant/Connor was born so she wanted him gone to protect Connor's status as heir. I'm not sure if she knew that Alistair was Maric's and if she didn't everyone else thought he was Eamon's. I'm not sure I can blame her for wanting to protect her child (at least this time it didn't lead to untold death and destruction) and the Chantry was supposed to be a good alternative for Alistair. Bann Alfstanna's own brother is a templar and he seemed perfectly happy there before being imprisoned for spotting Jowan before Loghain's forces did.

Maybe Alistair wasn't happy there but it's not like he kept in contact with Eamon so he could mention why he hated it. 'I can't make friends' is pretty horrible for a child but not really a reason everyone would accept to change someone's career path.

"They'll turn me into an lyrium addict" would be a pretty good reason. I get the impression being a templar is more a calling than a careeer choice. Much like being a pastor.

[errant_knight]

There's also the possibility that Isolde wasn't the real reason for sending Alistair to the Chantry, at least not all of it.

[Tigress M]

I never doubted how much Alistair felt for Duncan, or whether or not his grief as his death was justified. I'm just wondering how the Warden would know that at such an early date.

And I'm with Sarah... what really got me thinking about this was the fact that so many complain about Alistair's reaction to Duncan's death and would that have been different if Alistair had been in his 30's and known Duncan for 10 years or so.

BUT AGAIN, I'M NOT ATTACKING ALISTAIR'S RIGHT TO FEEL THE WAY HE DOES. Sorry for caps, just want to make sure everyone understands that this time. LOL

[Axekix]

Lady Jess wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

He's one of the few that know who Alistair really is too. Especially if Fiona is truly the Mom he IS going to care what Alistair wants. Clearly Eamon never did. And that's who raised him.

Well it was either Alistair or Isolde... he made the right decision imo.

Not sure he had to make this decision at all. Pretty certain he could have pursuaded Isolde with a little determination, but he just didn't care to.

And in saying the decision was right, surely you mean the right (i.e. selfish) decision for Eamon... Not morally the right decision because it involves dumping the child.... Like an unwanted puppy after Christmas.

For Axe it's right because he loves Isolde and hates Alistair:)

But we adopted him, like a dumped puppy after Christmas

This!  Well, I don't hate  Alistair exactly.  But if it's between those two... have fun at the Chantry Ali!

P.S. do people actually dump puppies after X-mas?! 

[Maria13]

... as I said about my cat.

[Lady Jess]

Axekix wrote...

This!  Well, I don't hate  Alistair exactly.  But if it's between those two... have fun at the Chantry Ali!

P.S. do people actually dump puppies after X-mas?! 

Puppies after Christmas (kittens too), Bunnies after Easter, and specialty breeds after movies (101 dalmations was hell for Dalmations)

At Christmas people think its great to give someone a puppy or kitten, but don't check with them (or a parent) first. The puppy/kitten then ends up dumped at the shelter. If it's lucky.

[Sarah1281]

"They'll turn me into an lyrium addict" would be a pretty good reason. I get the impression being a templar is more a calling than a careeer choice. Much like being a pastor.

I hardly think the lyrium addiction is public knowledge (Alistair doesn't seem to think so but the templar outside the Denerim Chantry will tell you all about how his friend is suffering from overexposure to that. Maybe everyone knows that the templars use lyrium, just not that it's an addiction used to control them?) and by the time Alistair would have learned, Eamon gave up trying to see him.



In Ferelden, it seems like there isn't much of an ability to change your career at all. If you've been trained as a blacksmith or a soldier and you suddenly decide you don't like it, what else do you know how to do? You've spent years learning how to do one profession and now there's not much else. Maybe they could try to learn to be a servant or a templar could try to join the army but I don't think that a templar's inability to change professions would strike anyone as all that unusual.



I personally feel that being a templar would suck but I have more knowledge about being a templar than the average non-Chantry personnel seems to have and don't really agree with the Chantry on quite a few things that don't appear very controversial outside of the mages in the game.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

"They'll turn me into an lyrium addict" would be a pretty good reason. I get the impression being a templar is more a calling than a careeer choice. Much like being a pastor.

I hardly think the lyrium addiction is public knowledge (Alistair doesn't seem to think so but the templar outside the Denerim Chantry will tell you all about how his friend is suffering from overexposure to that. Maybe everyone knows that the templars use lyrium, just not that it's an addiction used to control them?) and by the time Alistair would have learned, Eamon gave up trying to see him.

In Ferelden, it seems like there isn't much of an ability to change your career at all. If you've been trained as a blacksmith or a soldier and you suddenly decide you don't like it, what else do you know how to do? You've spent years learning how to do one profession and now there's not much else. Maybe they could try to learn to be a servant or a templar could try to join the army but I don't think that a templar's inability to change professions would strike anyone as all that unusual.

I personally feel that being a templar would suck but I have more knowledge about being a templar than the average non-Chantry personnel seems to have and don't really agree with the Chantry on quite a few things that don't appear very controversial outside of the mages in the game.

Oh so you are the Revered Mother then? Or just a Templar?  a Mage maybe?

None of us KNOW how it works except from in game stuff. Alistair knew about the Lyrium addiction, we know that because he tells us. He knew it was coming after he would have taken his vows, because he tells us.

That last sentence also boggled my mind, and I've been reading sciency crap for hours.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

"They'll turn me into an lyrium addict" would be a pretty good reason. I get the impression being a templar is more a calling than a careeer choice. Much like being a pastor.

I hardly think the lyrium addiction is public knowledge (Alistair doesn't seem to think so but the templar outside the Denerim Chantry will tell you all about how his friend is suffering from overexposure to that. Maybe everyone knows that the templars use lyrium, just not that it's an addiction used to control them?) and by the time Alistair would have learned, Eamon gave up trying to see him.

In Ferelden, it seems like there isn't much of an ability to change your career at all. If you've been trained as a blacksmith or a soldier and you suddenly decide you don't like it, what else do you know how to do? You've spent years learning how to do one profession and now there's not much else. Maybe they could try to learn to be a servant or a templar could try to join the army but I don't think that a templar's inability to change professions would strike anyone as all that unusual.

I personally feel that being a templar would suck but I have more knowledge about being a templar than the average non-Chantry personnel seems to have and don't really agree with the Chantry on quite a few things that don't appear very controversial outside of the mages in the game.

Oh so you are the Revered Mother then? Or just a Templar?  a Mage maybe?

None of us KNOW how it works except from in game stuff. Alistair knew about the Lyrium addiction, we know that because he tells us. He knew it was coming after he would have taken his vows, because he tells us.

That last sentence also boggled my mind, and I've been reading sciency crap for hours.

I know that there is a lot about being a templar that we don't know, the bolded part was pretty much about the lyrium addiction and the Harrowings which I saw evidence that most people in Ferelden did not know about. I can't imagine most people would approve of the Chantry purposefully putting demons in people. I wasn't trying to claim to be an expert on templars. Hell, based on my experience in DA I wouldn't claim to be an expert on Wardens.

I'm not so sure what's confusing or mind-boggling about that last sentence. I think that my opinion that being a templar would be awful is pretty straight-forward. When Alistair outright tells us that it's a big secret about the lyrium and the mage origin makes it clear just how big of a secret the Harrowing is that we can assume most people do not know about that so that's also pretty simple. I disagree with the Chantry having secular power, a standing army, their tendency to invade other countries and their threat to do it to Orzammar (which would be really stupid of them if they don't want to take up the constant darkspawn-slaying), and what they do to mages - which I did not get the impression in DA was something that was controverisial to many people that did not happen to be mages.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 février 2011 - 07:19 .

[Glorfindel709]

As a mage player, specifically a maleficar mage player, I hate the Chantry and by extension the Templars. The Circle Tower, the Harrowing, the Rite of Tranquility. The sheer hypocrisy of phylactery usage and the Harrowing (we lock you up because you could be possessed... while forcing demons into your being to see "how you resist them".) I call bull**** to both.



The Harrowing is a means of culling the Mage population and "proving" just how dangerous abominations can be. If a Mage happens to pass, not only do they "realize just how dangerous their powers are, for themselves and others" but they're around to work as healers and chantry slaves. Tracking mages through their blood is a form of Blood Magic. It's hypocrisy at its' finest! They lock you up and deny you your rights in case you might become an abomination or maleficar, and if you escape they use the magic that makes you a maleficar to hunt you down >.<



Upon learning that they're practically enslaved by the Chantry though, I felt pity for their Templars. They're just like the Tranquil, once they've been addicted/made tranquil there is nothing they can do except follow the will of the Chantry. Im really hoping for the chance to burn down a Chantry in this new game, I really am.

[Maria13]

@Errant for what other reasons may Alistair have ended up in the Chantry?



Intrigued here...

[Tigress M]

@Glor - I never thought about the blood thing, but you're right. That is pretty hypocritical.

Here, have some Ali from my new playthrough that will hopefully tide me over until DA2. lol

[rak72]

Maria13 wrote...

@Errant for what other reasons may Alistair have ended up in the Chantry?

Intrigued here...

I always thought Eamon wanted him there to keep him Lyrium addled & celebate.  That way, no threats to his nephew Calin from either Alistair or any  of  Ali's potentia heirs.

Modifié par rak72, 16 février 2011 - 08:07 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

"They'll turn me into an lyrium addict" would be a pretty good reason. I get the impression being a templar is more a calling than a careeer choice. Much like being a pastor.

I hardly think the lyrium addiction is public knowledge (Alistair doesn't seem to think so but the templar outside the Denerim Chantry will tell you all about how his friend is suffering from overexposure to that. Maybe everyone knows that the templars use lyrium, just not that it's an addiction used to control them?) and by the time Alistair would have learned, Eamon gave up trying to see him.

In Ferelden, it seems like there isn't much of an ability to change your career at all. If you've been trained as a blacksmith or a soldier and you suddenly decide you don't like it, what else do you know how to do? You've spent years learning how to do one profession and now there's not much else. Maybe they could try to learn to be a servant or a templar could try to join the army but I don't think that a templar's inability to change professions would strike anyone as all that unusual.

I personally feel that being a templar would suck but I have more knowledge about being a templar than the average non-Chantry personnel seems to have and don't really agree with the Chantry on quite a few things that don't appear very controversial outside of the mages in the game.

Oh so you are the Revered Mother then? Or just a Templar?  a Mage maybe?

None of us KNOW how it works except from in game stuff. Alistair knew about the Lyrium addiction, we know that because he tells us. He knew it was coming after he would have taken his vows, because he tells us.

That last sentence also boggled my mind, and I've been reading sciency crap for hours.

I know that there is a lot about being a templar that we don't know, the bolded part was pretty much about the lyrium addiction and the Harrowings which I saw evidence that most people in Ferelden did not know about. I can't imagine most people would approve of the Chantry purposefully putting demons in people. I wasn't trying to claim to be an expert on templars. Hell, based on my experience in DA I wouldn't claim to be an expert on Wardens.

I'm not so sure what's confusing or mind-boggling about that last sentence. I think that my opinion that being a templar would be awful is pretty straight-forward. When Alistair outright tells us that it's a big secret about the lyrium and the mage origin makes it clear just how big of a secret the Harrowing is that we can assume most people do not know about that so that's also pretty simple. I disagree with the Chantry having secular power, a standing army, their tendency to invade other countries and their threat to do it to Orzammar (which would be really stupid of them if they don't want to take up the constant darkspawn-slaying), and what they do to mages - which I did not get the impression in DA was something that was controverisial to many people that did not happen to be mages.

Ok I swear the part I bolded and underlined wasn't there earlier. But like I said, I think many templars see it as a calling. Much like many priests and pastors are "called" into service to the church. Something they see as their holy duty to the maker, a sacrifice they willingly make to fulfill it. Alistair had it forced on him, and thus would WANT a career change. Trying to explain the difference between Alfstanna's brother and someone like Alistair (as mentioned in another post).  Calling Vs Dumped there and forced to be a templar.

And you missed the smiley apparently, I was teasing about being the revered mother for pete's sake. And your last sentence, well it was just worded in a way my old, addled, poorly taken care of before my 3rd cup of coffee could grasp after reading a bunch of forensic sciencey stuff thats reduced it to mush. Oh and pain killers. Fracking tooth pain is the worst pain EVER!

Modifié par Lady Jess, 16 février 2011 - 08:14 .

[Maria13]

Agreed Lady Jess, to enforce on someone a vocation that is not their natural calling is pretty ugly.

[errant_knight]

[quote]rak72 wrote...

[quote]Maria13 wrote...

@Errant for what other reasons may Alistair have ended up in the Chantry?

Intrigued here...[/quote]

I always thought Eamon wanted him there to keep him Lyrium addled & celebate.  That way, no threats to his nephew Calin from either Alistair or any  of  Ali's potentia heirs.[/quote]

Alistair appears to have been celibate by choice, not instruction. Templars seem to be able to marry, and Alistair never mentions that celibacy was expected of him, just that the opportunity didn't present itself in a way that he found appealing and meaningful.

I personally don't think that the lyrium addiction is common knowledge even if the templar in front of the Denerim chantry is free with the information. You are the awesomesauce warden, after all, and you're travelling around with an ex-templar. I expect the other templars know who he is. It's not like many of them get away.

It was a good way to get Alistair into a situation where an attempt to take the throne would be all but impossible. Maric was still alive then, and I think it's quite possible that if he didn't instruct Eamon to do it, he approved. It also had the benefit of providing him with a gentleman's education and arms training in case they ever needed to make use of a spare heir.

[/quote]

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 février 2011 - 08:38 .

[Lady Jess]

[quote]errant_knight wrote...

[quote]rak72 wrote...

[quote]Maria13 wrote...

@Errant for what other reasons may Alistair have ended up in the Chantry?

Intrigued here...[/quote]

I always thought Eamon wanted him there to keep him Lyrium addled & celebate.  That way, no threats to his nephew Calin from either Alistair or any  of  Ali's potentia heirs.[/quote]

Alistair appears to have been celibate by choice, not instruction. Templars seem to be able to marry, and Alistair never mentions that celibacy was expected of him, just that the opportunity didn't present itself in a way that he found appealing and meaningful.

I personally don't think that the lyrium addiction is common knowledge even if the templar in front of the Denerim chantry is free with the information. You are the awesomesauce warden, after all, and you're travelling around with an ex-templar. I expect the other templars know who he is. It's not like many of them get away.

It was a good way to get Alistair into a situation where an attempt to take the throne would be all but impossible. Maric was still alive then, and I think it's quite possible that if he didn't instruct Eamon to do it, he approved. It also had the benefit of providing him with a gentleman's education and arms training in case they ever needed to make use of a spare heir.

[/quote][/quote]

But ALISTAIR knew it. He knew it was part of the deal. I believe that is all I actually said in my post about Eamon, and Alistair having good reason for wanting to get out beyond "I can't make any friends here"

[errant_knight]

I was responding to Rak's idea that Eamon wanted Alistair to get addicted to lyrium.

[Lady Jess]

errant_knight wrote...

I was responding to Rak's idea that Eamon wanted Alistair to get addicted to lyrium.

It really wouldn't surprise me if the old jackarse knew. I mean he has a Chantry right there, he may have even SEEN the effects at some point in the decades he's been there.

[errant_knight]

I think if everyone knew, there's be more gossip and less trust of the templars. And if Eamon knew, it being obvious (which seems unlikely since the Chantry has no lyrium shortage), then so did Maric and Teagan.

[Addai]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

As a mage player, specifically a maleficar mage player, I hate the Chantry and by extension the Templars. The Circle Tower, the Harrowing, the Rite of Tranquility. The sheer hypocrisy of phylactery usage and the Harrowing (we lock you up because you could be possessed... while forcing demons into your being to see "how you resist them".) I call bull**** to both.

*maleficar fistbump*

I was replaying Witch Hunt and overheard some gossip in the Circle Tower, talking about a guy who had so much lyrium poured into him that blood came out his eyes or something like that??  I didn't catch who it was and exactly what they said.  I'll replay and try to catch it next time but if anyone else has heard that, WTF?  I guessed it might be someone being made Tranquil.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 février 2011 - 09:02 .