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[Giggles_Manically]

Merilsell wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...


You heard the Architect, in both The Calling and Awakening. The only recourse for humanity and darkspawn to coexist is for humanity to take a hit and all become tainted hybrids. Sure, millions will die, but they'll have peace, right?

And that is where my mind boogles. And not only my own but the one of my Warden's as well. Coexisting as tainted hybrid's? No thanks but thanks, I rather take my chances by killing all darkspawn upon sight. It's my Warden's job, after all.

You can either have the maybe of the architects promise.
Or the assurance of a sword in his and every other darkspawn's guts...

I pick option 2 myself. 

[Glorfindel709]

@KoP Then ignoring the Calling, here's what we know of the Architects plan.



He sees the Grey Wardens as the median between the Darkspawn and Humanity. He uses their blood to awaken other Darkspawn and mute them to the Calling. He also plans to remove the song from the Darkspawn by taking blood from Grey Wardens and muting ALL darkspawn to the calling, thus removing the potential for Blights (except for you know, a "derp, I tried to make one a minion and caused the Fifth Blight, sorry about that ol chum." ).



There are not that many Grey Wardens in all of Thedas that a race that makes thousands of Darkspawn per Broodmother could use to make themselves immune to the Calling (though I'd like to point out that even Grey Wardens succumb to it eventually so strictly speaking eventually they'll most likely hear the Call again).



THAT means one thing. They need more Grey Wardens (or non-darkspawn that have taken in the Taint.) What's the best way to do this? OH RIGHT, taint all of humanity and use the survivors to fuel the blood. You know, his original horribly flawed plan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

^ How can you even call that justifiable?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Indeed, and since they don't need to eat apparently, they have little urge to migrate to the surface.

Except to pick up some lucky ladies. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

They will recieve tranquilized criminal females. They don't deserve it, no one does. But some are more undeserving. 

[Maricsblade]

Sarah1281 wrote...

alisgirl wrote...

Either I'm just a peacenik at heart (I side with the mages to avoid killing any innocents and get Zathrian to remove the curse from the werewolves) or I'm too lore-challenged to understand all of the consequences. Probably both. But based on what I knew of in the game at the time, it sounded like the best long-term solution. Give me a reasonable-sounding person with a similar goal to mine and I'd find it hard to cut him/her down without at least trying to work with him/her for a time, despite some past mistakes.

You have to consider what kind of 'past mistakes' we're talking about. Even just messing up with one broodmother caused all that chaos in Awakening. Then consider that the Architect caused the fith Blight and didn't say anything about not trying agin to awaken a sixth Old God and accidentally starting a sixth Blight. I mean, I'm sure he won't do the exact same thing he did with the fifth Old God but there's no guarantee that it would work or that an awakened Archdemon wouldn't be just as dangerous if not more so.

It's not like the Architect's mistakes lead to failures in lab experiments or anything. His mistakes cost hundreds if not thousands of lives and he doesn't show any indication of stopping his pattern of failing or properly detecting when the awakened darkspawn are bat****. I mean, the Mother can't even freaking move. How did she escape the Architect again? 

Point taken. But you're talking about ending an apparently endless cycle (unless Glor is right and there are only two old gods left; I'd never heard that.) Gazoodles of people are doing to die that way too.

[Giggles_Manically]

Plus unless you believe his ****, he did murder most of the people in Vigil's Keep then bleed their corpses dry.

[Glorfindel709]

So now we're forming a society in which women are given to the Darkspawn because the committed a crime. They're being given to the darkspawn to be raped and tortured and then produce thousands of little warlike Darkspawn minions.



So is this only limited to capital punishment crimes, or are we going to start giving women who prostitute themselves outside of brothels or steal bread to the Darkspawn as well?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
THAT means one thing. They need more Grey Wardens (or non-darkspawn that have taken in the Taint.) What's the best way to do this? OH RIGHT, taint all of humanity and use the survivors to fuel the blood. You know, his original horribly flawed plan.

Not necessarily, he only took one fial of blood from you. You'd think he would drain you and your fellow Wardens dry, and just leave Amaranthine to its fate, why should he care, he already got all the Wardens who were there.

If what is required is a blood donation every once and a while by Wardens who apparently don't do anything between blights, I don't see a problem.

What you said is not the best way to do it, it's the most unfeasible way unless he stumbles accross some sort of super weapon or spell capable of pulling it off.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
So is this only limited to capital punishment crimes, or are we going to start giving women who prostitute themselves outside of brothels or steal bread to the Darkspawn as well?

Why do you have to go there?

No, only the worst offenders.

[Sarah1281]

Point taken. But you're talking about ending an apparently endless cycle (unless Glor is right and there are only two old gods left; I'd never heard that.) Gazoodles of people are doing to die that way too.

There are only two gods left and that's the point of contention. What happens when those two old gods die? If all the darkspawn are awakened all at once because the 'song' dies with the last Archdemon...well, that's the only reason I can see to even remotely consider the Architect's plan. It's better to try and have some control involved rather that just having every darkspawn in existence awaken all at once, many of them going crazy, and there being no system in place to try to deal with it. Not that I have faith that the Architect could create a workable system...

You had no problem doing the DR did you?

What do you mean?

[errant_knight]

alisgirl wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...


Their complete and utter obliteration from existence.

There will be no compromise, no deals, no mercy.

Hmm, this sounds like hardliners on each side of a debate on peace in the MIddle East.

Except these are darkspawn, with all that entails, not human beings. That's rather different.

KoP is right, though, we should probably stay away from real world comparisons and politics. That always ends badly.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 février 2011 - 07:42 .

[Sarah1281]

Not necessarily, he only took one fial of blood from you. You'd think he would drain you and your fellow Wardens dry, and just leave Amaranthine to its fate, why should he care, he already got all the Wardens who were there.

How do you explain what happened with Keenan?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You had no problem doing the DR did you?

What do you mean?

You have no way of knowing for sure that a "purified" Old God is not going to be as bad if not worse than an archdemon.

You took the risk. Why can't he?

[Glorfindel709]

@alisgirl There were seven Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter Mages. Dumat, Zazikel, Toth, Andoral, Urthemiel, Razikale, and Lusacan.



The first five have already become Archdemons and been killed by the Grey Wardens. If Archdemons are truly the corrupted Old Gods, there are only two more Blights left. And honestly, that's the only bit of Chantry Dogma I'm willing to accept. The soul transference and the Fade presences plus the level of intelligence cannot be ascribed to a regular ol High Dragon that got tainted by Darkspawn.



Not only that, but if regular High Dragons could become Archdemons then the Blight would have happened decades earlier because there is a big black High Dragon sitting in the Deep Roads right near Ortan Thaig and right near Darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not necessarily, he only took one fial of blood from you. You'd think he would drain you and your fellow Wardens dry, and just leave Amaranthine to its fate, why should he care, he already got all the Wardens who were there.

How do you explain what happened with Keenan?

According to the Architect, they were already dead or dying. It's possible.
Plus, we don't know what the Architect would have done with Keenan, he was still alive and undrained. Why didn't he drain his blood? Was he waiting for him to die? Why (other than to give us the ring for the side quest and soem exp)?

[Glorfindel709]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...
THAT means one thing. They need more Grey Wardens (or non-darkspawn that have taken in the Taint.) What's the best way to do this? OH RIGHT, taint all of humanity and use the survivors to fuel the blood. You know, his original horribly flawed plan.

Not necessarily, he only took one fial of blood from you. You'd think he would drain you and your fellow Wardens dry, and just leave Amaranthine to its fate, why should he care, he already got all the Wardens who were there.

If what is required is a blood donation every once and a while by Wardens who apparently don't do anything between blights, I don't see a problem.

What you said is not the best way to do it, it's the most unfeasible way unless he stumbles accross some sort of super weapon or spell capable of pulling it off.

I actualy dont think he'd draing me dry and leave Amaranthine to its Fate. In his view, the Mother needs to be stopped and apparently he needs me to do it. And he took a vial of blood for experimentation, but let's be honest here. With the number of Darkspawn ranging in the millions, all of the blood of several thousand Wardens wouldnt even be enough to free a quarter of the population.

He'd have to go through with his original plan of getting more humans tainted and accellerating the taint of those who have survived the corruption. There is literally no other way for this plan to work out in the Long Term.

And would every freed Broodmother then give birth to freed Darkspawn? Or would we have to constantly take blood for every new batch of children?

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You had no problem doing the DR did you?

What do you mean?

You have no way of knowing for sure that a "purified" Old God is not going to be as bad if not worse than an archdemon.

You took the risk. Why can't he?

He is making an Archdemon. I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to achieve by awakening the Archdemon since it doesn't seem to be mindless. Maybe manually cutting off the song? It if could work then he could find the others and do the same thing to cut off the song but depending on the nature of the song (does it come from them? Is it something they're just tied into as well?) it may not even be possible.

The reason I can take a chance with Morrigan is because she's not out for the child to be tainted (nor would Flemeth and I assume that she, at least, knows what she's doing) and it's hard to conceive of anything worse than a Blight (or an all-the-time Blight like awakened darkspawn risk) no matter how powerful the child is. The Archdemon can be killed and so the child should be killabe as well, even if it would be no mean feat. If the Archdemon were to become more intelligent as a result of the Architect messing with it then it could lead the darkspawn to far more efficiently wipe everyone out which seems to be a greater risk than one person, no matter how powerful.

[errant_knight]

Kop, I don't agree with your argument, but let's say I did. What makes you think you can believe anything the Architect says? He's a darkspawn and his goals are theirs. There's no reason to think that he can be trusted in any way.

[Maricsblade]

@Glor -- Thanks for writing that up for me. Yes, I can see that the problem is relying on whether the Chantry has it straight/is telling it straight or not.

@errant -- I'm just saying that in the abstract, all-or-nothing approaches rarely work out.

[Merilsell]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...


You heard the Architect, in both The Calling and Awakening. The only recourse for humanity and darkspawn to coexist is for humanity to take a hit and all become tainted hybrids. Sure, millions will die, but they'll have peace, right?

And that is where my mind boogles. And not only my own but the one of my Warden's as well. Coexisting as tainted hybrid's? No thanks but thanks, I rather take my chances by killing all darkspawn upon sight. It's my Warden's job, after all.

You can either have the maybe of the architects promise.
Or the assurance of a sword in his and every other darkspawn's guts...

I pick option 2 myself. 

Lenya and Alistair agree.

Only a dead darkspawn...is a good darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
With the number of Darkspawn ranging in the millions, all of the blood of several thousand Wardens wouldnt even be enough to free a quarter of the population.

And why do you think he has to do it in a day? It can be done in a gradual process, with blood donations given every few weeks or months. Outside of blights, the Wardens are useless, let that be their new purpose.  

As for new darkspawn babies, again we do not know their reproductive urges once they are freed. If they are unaging or age very slowly (and they can't starve, they don't eat), their reproduction rate is going to be minimal.

[Glorfindel709]

@alisgirl -- No problem. And for me, I dont believe nearly anything the Chantry says. It's imperialistic dogma hell-bent on ruling every facet of Life ( like the Catholic Church way back in Medieval Europe) That being said, for the reasons I stated above, I do believe that the Old Gods are the Archdemons and are not just some high dragon unlucky enough to be caught by the Darkspawn and corrupted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
He is making an Archdemon. I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to achieve by awakening the Archdemon since it doesn't seem to be mindless. Maybe manually cutting off the song? It if could work then he could find the others and do the same thing to cut off the song but depending on the nature of the song (does it come from them? Is it something they're just tied into as well?) it may not even be possible.
 

From what I remember, he was trying to free it. I presume either remove the song, or make it immune to the taint.
In either case, he was not deliberately making an Archdemon. He was trying to avoid it becoming an archdemon, as it only becoems so when the darkspawn reach and corrupt it.

[Glorfindel709]

Actually, he told Bregan his plan was to kill the Old Gods. You later find out from The Mother that he was actually trying to turn it into a Disciple.

" He was trying to avoid it becoming an archdemon, as it only becoems so when the darkspawn reach and corrupt it." <----- HE IS A DARKSPAWN!

So again, I see no reason to trust the word of a Darkspawn.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 17 février 2011 - 07:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

Kop, I don't agree with your argument, but let's say I did. What makes you think you can believe anything the Architect says? He's a darkspawn and his goals are theirs. There's no reason to think that he can be trusted in any way.

Because I didn't see evidence to the contrary. I don't trust him, I trust what I saw. Why was Keenan being kept alive all this time and not drained? Maybe the Architect was trying to convince him? Why isn't Utha drained completely?

...etc

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Actually, he told Bregan his plan was to kill the Old Gods. You later find out from The Mother that he was actually trying to turn it into a Disciple.

Not what he wrote in his cute diary (yes, I find it cute). The Calling seems to have been ignored anyhow.

Glorfindel709 wrote...
" He was trying to avoid it becoming an archdemon, as it only becoems so when the darkspawn reach and corrupt it." <----- HE IS A DARKSPAWN!

So again, I see no reason to trust the word of a Darkspawn.

And perhaps he thought he had a spell to prevent corruption and give him time to do the ritual. He made the Qunari merchant immune to the taint didn't he.

And it apparently failed. But nothing suggests he was deliberately trying to make an archdemon. That would run contrary to his entire plan. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 février 2011 - 08:00 .