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[Glorfindel709]

See, I'm always conflicted on the Loghain situation.

Between the slavery, assassins, civil war, making demands that in reality the ground-up feudal system that is Fereldens' system would ever allow, and of course ignoring the Blight in favor of strengthening the military presences in the ports and passages to the North, I come to the conclusion that his situational awareness has been compromised and he is no longer the person we need as a General for the armies.

But on the other hand, I dont hold what happened at Ostagar against him, nor do I think his fear of Orlesian invasion is just simple paranoia. Basic power politics and imperialism, strike when your target countrys' infrastructure is at its weakest, and then claim the spoils. On top of that, Alistairs' actions at the Landsmeet always kind of annoyed me. He has this utter blindspot of rage for what he views as the person who killed Duncan, and will allow no rational reason to dissuade him. This is also the man who blew up at me at camp for protecting an entire village by killing an abomination.

That being said, I'll probably be killing Loghain in this, my import playthrough.

I think this picture is appropriate.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 21 février 2011 - 04:46 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont know which run to import.

My avatar Cyrus killed him, as did Bob which was my most fun run.



However most of my runs are redeemer endings with hardened Alistair on the throne with Anora.

So I think I will have to find another type to do before pushing through those runs.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Yeah we are so NOT impressed with Oghren, the Deep Roads, Hunting that stupid broad, Branka. Stupid Behelen, stupid treaty...grrrrrr says Kasha and Alistair.

I am dissapoint.

Dude, She's in the deep roads on HIS orders, when SHE is the one facing a blight and civil war. She has a right to be a bit cross with him. Mind you this is task number 3, so she's been doing his errands for a while now. He'll still get his stupid crown. Maybe shoved up his...ahem.

[Glorfindel709]

I'm doing a Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior who sides with Bhelen, ends the werewolf curse, sides with the mages, (maybe) kills Wynne(just cause im curious how the reunion in friggen Awakening would be), killed Connor, preserved the Urn, hardened Alistair on the throne, Anora in the tower. Dark Ritual



That's the plan anyway, sets me up nicely to steamroll through Awakening(shudder), Golems(again), and my first and only run of Witch Hunt.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

Auora wrote...

She will generally spare/save anyone she can. Persuasion checks are often used to avoid unnecessary violence. I will probably let Alistair strike Loghain down. Though it is not my conviction to do so, it is surely his.

And that is a reasoning that makes my blood chill.

To be fair, she can RP it as not expecting Alistair to strike him down immediately. That she alows Alistair to fight for something he obviously feels very strongly about (too much in fact), but didn't think he would kill him right off the bat, when the duel itself is till one party yields.

That's what I did with my goody goody mage. He didn't necessarily want to kill Loghain, and was "dude! wtf?" when Alistair killed him without blinking an eye. That's just one thing out of many that mde him realize that hey, life is ****. That being said, the cutscene does not give that impression at all, but I ignored it.

However, if indeed there is someone who doesn't want another to die, but allows his / her friend to do because otherwise the kid will leave, that's I am sorry to say, revolting to me.
I wouldn't kill someone if I didn't feel it necessary even if it's my mom telling me to.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 05:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Yeah we are so NOT impressed with Oghren, the Deep Roads, Hunting that stupid broad, Branka. Stupid Behelen, stupid treaty...grrrrrr says Kasha and Alistair.

I am dissapoint.

Dude, She's in the deep roads on HIS orders, when SHE is the one facing a blight and civil war. She has a right to be a bit cross with him. Mind you this is task number 3, so she's been doing his errands for a while now. He'll still get his stupid crown. Maybe shoved up his...ahem.

I was joking

But still, it's not really his fault, blame Orzammar and the Assembly.

[Lady Jess]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

See, I'm always conflicted on the Loghain situation.

Between the slavery, assassins, civil war, making demands that in reality the ground-up feudal system that is Fereldens' system would ever allow, and of course ignoring the Blight in favor of strengthening the military presences in the ports and passages to the North, I come to the conclusion that his situational awareness has been compromised and he is no longer the person we need as a General for the armies.

But on the other hand, I dont hold what happened at Ostagar against him, nor do I think his fear of Orlesian invasion is just simple paranoia. Basic power politics and imperialism, strike when your target countrys' infrastructure is at its weakest, and then claim the spoils. On top of that, Alistairs' actions at the Landsmeet always kind of annoyed me. He has this utter blindspot of rage for what he views as the person who killed Duncan, and will allow no rational reason to dissuade him. This is also the man who blew up at me at camp for protecting an entire village by killing an abomination.

That being said, I'll probably be killing Loghain in this, my import playthrough.

I think this picture is appropriate.
 

I have a hard time saving him, so I have only done it twice. And let me tell you it was hard as hell as an elf to get past  the alienage. I wanted her to kill him for that alone.

I'm ok with Alistair 's speech at the landsmeet. He's outraged and indignant, and has every reason to be when Riordan suggests sparing the guy, that did kill your order with his actions,outright ACCUSED you of regicide, put a bounty on your head and had you hunted down like animals, then sent an assassin after you to put icing on the cake. I am glad they have him outrage, I would have liked one too after you see what he allowed howe to do in the dungeons, find out he really did try to kill Eamon (and as my mage used my misguided FRIEND to do it), ANd you see what he did at the Alienage.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Yeah we are so NOT impressed with Oghren, the Deep Roads, Hunting that stupid broad, Branka. Stupid Behelen, stupid treaty...grrrrrr says Kasha and Alistair.

I am dissapoint.

Dude, She's in the deep roads on HIS orders, when SHE is the one facing a blight and civil war. She has a right to be a bit cross with him. Mind you this is task number 3, so she's been doing his errands for a while now. He'll still get his stupid crown. Maybe shoved up his...ahem.

I was joking

But still, it's not really his fault, blame Orzammar and the Assembly.

Oh he has men he could send down there. He just doesn'thave the patience. He sees us as a tool at his disposal because we need something. God I hate the deep roads. But after Jaina, I need a happy ending game.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Auora wrote...

She will generally spare/save anyone she can. Persuasion checks are often used to avoid unnecessary violence. I will probably let Alistair strike Loghain down. Though it is not my conviction to do so, it is surely his.

And that is a reasoning that makes my blood chill.

To be fair, she can RP it as not expecting Alistair to strike him down immediately. That she alows Alistair to fight for something he obviously feels very strongly about (too much in fact), but didn't think he would kill him right off the bat, when the duel itself is till one party yields.

That's what I did with my goody goody mage. He didn't necessarily want to kill Loghain, and was "dude! wtf?" when Alistair killed him without blinking an eye. That's just one thing out of many that mde him realize that hey, life is ****. That being said, the cutscene does not give that impression at all, but I ignored it.

However, if indeed there is someone who doesn't want another to die, but allows his / her friend to do because otherwise the kid will leave, that's I am sorry to say, revolting to me.
I wouldn't kill someone if I didn't feel it necessary even if it's my mom telling me to.

This. Never mind that Alistair's behavior at the Landsmeet forever soured my esteem for him, no way am I going to reward that tantrum by giving him what he wants. (It's not like he is asking for cookies) 

[Persephone]

Lady Jess wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

See, I'm always conflicted on the Loghain situation.

Between the slavery, assassins, civil war, making demands that in reality the ground-up feudal system that is Fereldens' system would ever allow, and of course ignoring the Blight in favor of strengthening the military presences in the ports and passages to the North, I come to the conclusion that his situational awareness has been compromised and he is no longer the person we need as a General for the armies.

But on the other hand, I dont hold what happened at Ostagar against him, nor do I think his fear of Orlesian invasion is just simple paranoia. Basic power politics and imperialism, strike when your target countrys' infrastructure is at its weakest, and then claim the spoils. On top of that, Alistairs' actions at the Landsmeet always kind of annoyed me. He has this utter blindspot of rage for what he views as the person who killed Duncan, and will allow no rational reason to dissuade him. This is also the man who blew up at me at camp for protecting an entire village by killing an abomination.

That being said, I'll probably be killing Loghain in this, my import playthrough.

I think this picture is appropriate.
 

I have a hard time saving him, so I have only done it twice. And let me tell you it was hard as hell as an elf to get past  the alienage. I wanted her to kill him for that alone.

I'm ok with Alistair 's speech at the landsmeet. He's outraged and indignant, and has every reason to be when Riordan suggests sparing the guy, that did kill your order with his actions,outright ACCUSED you of regicide, put a bounty on your head and had you hunted down like animals, then sent an assassin after you to put icing on the cake. I am glad they have him outrage, I would have liked one too after you see what he allowed howe to do in the dungeons, find out he really did try to kill Eamon (and as my mage used my misguided FRIEND to do it), ANd you see what he did at the Alienage.

LadyJess,

I have always seen more of Howe's hand in the Alienage, to be honest. Remember the Night Elves? And I'll have to disagree on "killing your order", I blame Cailan for that and then some. (As well as Duncan with his secrecy and reassurances to a king he KNOWS is acting like a suicidal fool) Never felt particularly hunted or took the assassins personally, besides, they brought me Zev!  He accused the WARDENS as a whole of regicide because they filled Cailan's head with glorious tales and fuelled Cailan's "Strategy and consequences? Sooooooo boring!" attitude. That is what got Cailan killed. Don't give a damn about Eamon (Also considering his neglect and then manipulation of Alistair. The man is an ice cold manipulator).

And now I'll go hide in a corner.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thing is, I really don't take any of this personally, but most do. But then again, that's Xanatos speaking "You're taking this much too personally".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 05:29 .

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, she can RP it as not expecting Alistair to strike him down immediately. That she alows Alistair to fight for something he obviously feels very strongly about (too much in fact), but didn't think he would kill him right off the bat, when the duel itself is till one party yields.

That's what I did with my goody goody mage. He didn't necessarily want to kill Loghain, and was "dude! wtf?" when Alistair killed him without blinking an eye. That's just one thing out of many that mde him realize that hey, life is ****. That being said, the cutscene does not give that impression at all, but I ignored it.

However, if indeed there is someone who doesn't want another to die, but allows his / her friend to do because otherwise the kid will leave, that's I am sorry to say, revolting to me.
I wouldn't kill someone if I didn't feel it necessary even if it's my mom telling me to.

I don't think I've ever (as a warden) done that. I will admit it was really freaking hard letting Jaina go through it, knowing he would leave. I actually had heartache on this side of the screen and it sucks. But you know what? I'm really attached to that character. Just as I'm attached to Caislyn Amell for saying "hey noone can tell you what to do, you're the king, do what makes you happy!"  and Kasha for falling in love AND seizing power (the best attributes of both Alistair and Morrigan's influences I guess) while doing her duty (Mom and dad influence), knowing she gets the WORST slide at the end of awakening.

Jaina didn't know Alistair would leave her. She thought "well he was this mad after Isolde and we got past it, we'll talk about this too, he won't really leave. He's only leaving  the building." She was in a way more naive than Alistair at the end. I cried writing that part of the story too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Don't give a damn about Eamon (Also considering his neglect and then manipulation of Alistair. The man is an ice cold manipulator).

And to be honest, I think he would have done a much better job at politics than Loghain.
That being said, I do not think he could have managed militarily.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Don't give a damn about Eamon (Also considering his neglect and then manipulation of Alistair. The man is an ice cold manipulator).

And to be honest, I think he would have done a much better job at politics than Loghain.
That being said, I do not think he could have managed militarily.

Oh, I agree. He'd have been excellent at politics, in fact, he is, according to Witch Hunt.

[Lady Jess]

Persephone wrote...

LadyJess,

I have always seen more of Howe's hand in the Alienage, to be honest. Remember the Night Elves? And I'll have to disagree on "killing your order", I blame Cailan for that and then some. (As well as Duncan with his secrecy and reassurances to a king he KNOWS is acting like a suicidal fool) Never felt particularly hunted or took the assassins personally, besides, they brought me Zev!  He accused the WARDENS as a whole of regicide because they filled Cailan's head with glorious tales and fuelled Cailan's "Strategy and consequences? Sooooooo boring!" attitude. That is what got Cailan killed. Don't give a damn about Eamon (Also considering his neglect and then manipulation of Alistair. The man is an ice cold manipulator).

And now I'll go hide in a corner.

I agree on Howe, but Loghain is a big boy. And he knows when you allow it, and reward it, you're equally as responsible for it. Now I don't hate Loghain, let's make that clear right now. I understand the guy, and I know he did the right thing pulling  out of Ostagar. though he does call that a tactical error.   He wanted to secure the borders from Orlais because we were at a weakened state with no clear ruler and a civil war was going on, bad choice but he didn't know why wardens were needed. (Maybe on THAT he should have listened to Cailan, but  he sees Wardens as Orlesians remember).  THEN deal with the darkspawn, I get it.

But the fact is, I had to fight those bounty hunters at what felt like every turn as I and my band of merry men are trying to defeat the blight. I had to overcome his accusations several times, or kill the accuser to do it. I had to climb a mountain to get an urn from under a dragon and pass the guardians test to cure the man HE had poisoned to get his support. I don't like Eamon either but  game says we need him so, theres another nail in Loghain's coffin. I hate mountain climbing.Then I get to the landsmeet, find nobles being tortured, a fellow warden jailed and tortured, elves being sold as slaves and used for blood magic by a tevinter mage. All things he supported, and defends at the landsmeet.

I have a good solid foundation for  my choices, beyond "Alistair will leave". I also go beyond Ostagar. I simply can't abide the man not only supporting Howe's plans but repeatedly rewarding him for murder, torture, and slavery, and whatever else he comes up with. Double that if I'm playing an elf or a Cousland. Wait, Triple it for my cousland. Bastard KNEW what Howe did to my family. And yet no justice, more rewards.<_<

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
I understand the guy, and I know he did the right thing pulling  out of Ostagar. though he does call that a tactical error.  

Just one thing, I do not think he refers to Ostagar as a tatical error, he stands by the decision in RtO. I think by tactical error, he means his handling of the bannorn and his focus on the borders with Orlais (though that should be called strategic errors...).

And it is as I have always said (those who remember at least). Executing Loghain has perfectly valid reasons and can (and should) go way way way beyond Alistair's feelings on the matter. Some though admit that they can't spare Loghain only because Alsitair would leave. I know it's a game, but I sincerily hope that they don't follow that attitude in real life. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[Persephone]

Lady Jess wrote...

Persephone wrote...

LadyJess,

I have always seen more of Howe's hand in the Alienage, to be honest. Remember the Night Elves? And I'll have to disagree on "killing your order", I blame Cailan for that and then some. (As well as Duncan with his secrecy and reassurances to a king he KNOWS is acting like a suicidal fool) Never felt particularly hunted or took the assassins personally, besides, they brought me Zev!  He accused the WARDENS as a whole of regicide because they filled Cailan's head with glorious tales and fuelled Cailan's "Strategy and consequences? Sooooooo boring!" attitude. That is what got Cailan killed. Don't give a damn about Eamon (Also considering his neglect and then manipulation of Alistair. The man is an ice cold manipulator).

And now I'll go hide in a corner.

I agree on Howe, but Loghain is a big boy. And he knows when you allow it, and reward it, you're equally as responsible for it. Now I don't hate Loghain, let's make that clear right now. I understand the guy, and I know he did the right thing pulling  out of Ostagar. though he does call that a tactical error.   He wanted to secure the borders from Orlais because we were at a weakened state with no clear ruler and a civil war was going on, bad choice but he didn't know why wardens were needed. (Maybe on THAT he should have listened to Cailan, but  he sees Wardens as Orlesians remember).  THEN deal with the darkspawn, I get it.

But the fact is, I had to fight those bounty hunters at what felt like every turn as I and my band of merry men are trying to defeat the blight. I had to overcome his accusations several times, or kill the accuser to do it. I had to climb a mountain to get an urn from under a dragon and pass the guardians test to cure the man HE had poisoned to get his support. I don't like Eamon either but  game says we need him so, theres another nail in Loghain's coffin. I hate mountain climbing.Then I get to the landsmeet, find nobles being tortured, a fellow warden jailed and tortured, elves being sold as slaves and used for blood magic by a tevinter mage. All things he supported, and defends at the landsmeet.

I have a good solid foundation for  my choices, beyond "Alistair will leave". I also go beyond Ostagar. I simply can't abide the man not only supporting Howe's plans but repeatedly rewarding him for murder, torture, and slavery, and whatever else he comes up with. Double that if I'm playing an elf or a Cousland. Wait, Triple it for my cousland. Bastard KNEW what Howe did to my family. And yet no justice, more rewards.<_<

Don't remember that many bounty hunters and most who accuse you can be charmed/intimidated away. Well, the whole urn fiasco can be blamed on bad writing, given that the Celene plot ended up on the cutting room floor. I don't see where he "rewarded" Howe all that much, as he very obviously detests the man. The alliance with Howe is a forced one, given that he is the most powerful and capable ally to be had. Had Loghain antagonized Howe (Even Cailan admits he'd need an army to bring Howe to justice), more problems (Severe ones) would have occured. So he had to swallow his still obvious distaste and shut down his personal feelings. My Cousland girl recognised that alliance as what it was: Politics at its worst, nothing personal.

[Lady Jess]

Persephone wrote...

Don't remember that many bounty hunters and most who accuse you can be charmed/intimidated away. Well, the whole urn fiasco can be blamed on bad writing, given that the Celene plot ended up on the cutting room floor. I don't see where he "rewarded" Howe all that much, as he very obviously detests the man. The alliance with Howe is a forced one, given that he is the most powerful and capable ally to be had. Had Loghain antagonized Howe (Even Cailan admits he'd need an army to bring Howe to justice), more problems (Severe ones) would have occured. So he had to swallow his still obvious distaste and shut down his personal feelings. My Cousland girl recognised that alliance as what it was: Politics at its worst, nothing personal.

They guy has more titles than the circle tower Library! Those are rewards. Titles come with power, with power comes money. A man comes to town to "help" with TWO Teyrnirs, one you KNOW was taken by murder, and you give him Arl of Denermin on top of that?

How I see this will never change. I never saw obvious distaste. He introduced him quite happily at Eamons estate. And the cutscenes ith howe? Those can be interpreted as distaste for the whole situation, or a migraine.  I have as it stands 8 characters. Two have spared Loghain. Of those two ONE made him do the DR and live. She was a Cousland. She's also supposed to be engaged to Zev. Once was enough for Cousland sparing Loghain for me. Kasha sees a big fat target across his throat.

Tess the Treacherous...

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
I understand the guy, and I know he did the right thing pulling  out of Ostagar. though he does call that a tactical error.  

Just one thing, I do not think he refers to Ostagar as a tatical error, he stands by the decision in RtO. I think by tactical error, he means his handling of the bannorn and his focus on the borders with Orlais (though that should be called strategic errors...).

And it is as I have always said (those who remember at least). Executing Loghain has perfectly valid reasons and can (and should) go way way way beyond Alistair's feelings on the matter. Some though admit that they can't spare Loghain only because Alsitair would leave. I know it's a game, but I sincerily hope that they don't follow that attitude in real life. 

He made it hard to resent his presence dammit. First he admitys "he did it wrong" then he WANTS to die on the roof, I actually had Jaina give him the respectful response at that point. But shh, in the fic he knocked her cold and took the blow:P

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
They guy has more titles than the circle tower Library! Those are rewards. Titles come with power, with power comes money. A man comes to town to "help" with TWO Teyrnirs, one you KNOW was taken by murder, and you give him Arl of Denermin on top of that?

Actually no. With titles comes the recognition, but not the power and money itself. Howe eliminated the Couslands without Loghain's knowledge and took over Highever. Loghain only stamped on it. Loghain did not give Denerim to Howe, but rather Howe took it himself by purging the alienage and claiming that the arl of Denerim (Vaughan) died. In essence, with his army in Denerim, he controlled it. Loghain gave him the royal stamp.

You can still feel that Loghain is responsable for this still and should be judged. But he did not reward Howe with things he didn't already take for himself. It was a fait accompli.

[Persephone]

Let me put it this way LadyJess:

I do not see it as treachery to spare him.

And one very potent reason for my Cousland to spare Loghain was Anora's presence. She witnessed her father dying without being able to save him. Quoting my girl out of my ff "No sin could be so great as to inflict that upon another soul." I also have watched a parent die. It is harrowing. No way could I do this to anyone, esp. as a Cousland.

As for Howe: What about the facepalming? He was baiting Eamon at the estate, I really see no friendship between him an Howe, only disgust on Loghain's end and weasly bootlicking on Howe's.

[Glorfindel709]

All I can do when I hear or see Howe is watch him dance his way through his dungeon singing "I'm just a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania"

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
They guy has more titles than the circle tower Library! Those are rewards. Titles come with power, with power comes money. A man comes to town to "help" with TWO Teyrnirs, one you KNOW was taken by murder, and you give him Arl of Denermin on top of that?

Actually no. With titles comes the recognition, but not the power and money itself. Howe eliminated the Couslands without Loghain's knowledge and took over Highever. Loghain only stamped on it. Loghain did not give Denerim to Howe, but rather Howe took it himself by purging the alienage and claiming that the arl of Denerim (Vaughan) died. In essence, with his army in Denerim, he controlled it. Loghain gave him the royal stamp.

You can still feel that Loghain is responsable for this still and should be judged. But he did not reward Howe with things he didn't already take for himself. It was a fait accompli.

Well then I hold him in contempt for the stmp and execute him for it:P My warden doesn't KNOW this at the time.

BUT Loghain DOES know about the Couslands AT Ostagar. And he could follow through on Cailan's promise, He has his army still, and I'm sure there were others that would GLADLY assist.  And by doing so not HAVE Howe taking crap over in Denerim too. In fact, it would have been a smart thing to do, more people may have fallen in line with Loghain that way.

[Persephone]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

All I can do when I hear or see Howe is watch him dance his way through his dungeon singing "I'm just a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania"

That. And making me fall in love with Gabriel Knight.

[Persephone]

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
They guy has more titles than the circle tower Library! Those are rewards. Titles come with power, with power comes money. A man comes to town to "help" with TWO Teyrnirs, one you KNOW was taken by murder, and you give him Arl of Denermin on top of that?

Actually no. With titles comes the recognition, but not the power and money itself. Howe eliminated the Couslands without Loghain's knowledge and took over Highever. Loghain only stamped on it. Loghain did not give Denerim to Howe, but rather Howe took it himself by purging the alienage and claiming that the arl of Denerim (Vaughan) died. In essence, with his army in Denerim, he controlled it. Loghain gave him the royal stamp.

You can still feel that Loghain is responsable for this still and should be judged. But he did not reward Howe with things he didn't already take for himself. It was a fait accompli.

Well then I hold him in contempt for the stmp and execute him for it:P My warden doesn't KNOW this at the time.

BUT Loghain DOES know about the Couslands AT Ostagar. And he could follow through on Cailan's promise, He has his army still, and I'm sure there were others that would GLADLY assist.  And by doing so not HAVE Howe taking crap over in Denerim too. In fact, it would have been a smart thing to do, more people may have fallen in line with Loghain that way.

He has more important things to do than antagonize most powerful noble (Except himself) in Ferelden. Sad as it is for a Cousland Warden, other origin Wardens don't even know of the Couslands, so doing that in game would be bad writing.