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[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
So the Grand Cleric fought to keep him because...?  And the central theme of DA2 is templar vs. mage.

Not a Templar, he did not make his vows, nor was he subjected to lyrium. He is an initiate.
Furthermore, he is not even a believing / convinced Templar initiate, he would identify himself as a Warden only.

Alistair tells you that the Grand Cleric fought to keep him and that the Chantry doesn't like its templar secrets getting away from them.  He says something similar when you ask him to teach the templar spec.  And, you know... he has the templar spec.  He's a templar.  He didn't take vows, but he had the training.  He does call himself a templar.  For instance when arguing that you shouldn't turn Wynne into a char stain:
Warden: "What sort of templar are you?"
Alistair: "Not a very good one, apparently."

He doesn't say "I'm a Warden, not a templar."

Modifié par Addai67, 28 février 2011 - 04:33 .

[cmessaz]

@Bitenomnom (awesome name BTW) those are really good!

[Addai]

Tigress M wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

At least he won't accuse you of betrayal for not having contacted him when you've been dead or in a coma for 2 years *looks at Mass Effect*

Don't I know it!  That's probably why I only played ME and ME2 once.  I was so ticked off after Horizon.  Thankfully, I'd already played DAO and so that scene wasn't totally unexpected having been dumped by Alistair on my first origins playthrough.  But still... I think I cried... in both games.  LOL

LOL I didn't like either of those two, so to have them dis me for being in a coma was like the final straw.  Too bad there wasn't a dialogue option to say "guess you'd prefer I left both your asses on Virmire."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Alistair tells you that the Grand Cleric fought to keep him and that the Chantry doesn't like its templar secrets getting away from them.  He says something similar when you ask him to teach the templar spec.  And, you know... he has the templar spec.  He's a templar.

Templar abilities does not make one a templar. Being a Templar is being part of a military ideological order. Alistair is not part of that order. And the Chantry could have fought to keep him for any number of reasons, including their distrust of the Wardens and because Alsitair is a Therein bastard.

Addai67 wrote...
Warden: "What sort of templar are you?"
Alistair: "Not a very good one, apparently."

He doesn't say "I'm a Warden, not a templar."

That's in fact proof that he does not consider himself to be good Templar. Aka, he does not share their beliefs, nor  their code of conduct, nor their state of mind / living conditions.  And trying to literally take word for word what he says here, forgetting the fact that he was being sarcastic in this line, is futile and pointless, and doesn't demonstrate anything.

So, Bioware is much much better off creating a new real Templar character that would fit into the whole conflict, rather than try to force Alistair into a role he had always hated, is not ideologically committed to and who does not identify himself as one. When he is alive, he goes back to the Warden order. He says he hated the idea of being a Templar, but thought of the Wardens as his family...etc etc.

So even if he was technically a Templar, he is a very bad one, who doesn't share the ideological commitment of the order. So he has no place in the conflict. I'd much rather see a new, interesting and complex Templar character.

And what you are trying to do here is precisely why I do not want Bioware to bring him or any of the other characters back. You are trying (badly) to shoehorn Alistair into a position and situation someone else would be much better at, just for the sake of it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 04:43 .

[Addai]

I see the problem- you think that I mean Alistair should come back as Templar Man championing the Chantry. Not. at. all. In fact, I would hate that. But in a mage vs. templar conflict, he does have an angle that could be made interesting. There certainly is material here. I understand preferring an all new cast, however. That doesn't seem to be the tack that the DA writers are taking. They prefer to see quite a few people come back in one way or another.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Warden: "What sort of templar are you?"
Alistair: "Not a very good one, apparently."

Where is this conversation in the toolset?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I see the problem- you think that I mean Alistair should come back as Templar Man championing the Chantry. Not. at. all. In fact, I would hate that. But in a mage vs. templar conflict, he does have an angle that could be made interesting. There certainly is material here. I understand preferring an all new cast, however. That doesn't seem to be the tack that the DA writers are taking. They prefer to see quite a few people come back in one way or another.

I do not see how he can provide that much of an interesting angle as to warrant something more than a 5 minute cameo. If there is going to be a middle ground angle, again, I'd prefer a new character who has a much substantial personal experience in the matter. Say a Templar turned rogue. Or whatever that would be much more suited in providing that angle in a much better way than Alistair would. 

And other than Morrigan (potentially in the future, for obvious reasons), and the mage (and for good reason), they are not bringing many back except for pretty meaningless cameos. All the companions' stories, except Morrigan , are done and I do nto see them being back in any meangful way except for the small fanservice cameo (possible exception is Sten). 

[Bitenomnom]

cmessaz wrote...

@Bitenomnom (awesome name BTW) those are really good!

Aw, thank you!

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I see the problem- you think that I mean Alistair should come back as Templar Man championing the Chantry. Not. at. all. In fact, I would hate that. But in a mage vs. templar conflict, he does have an angle that could be made interesting. There certainly is material here. I understand preferring an all new cast, however. That doesn't seem to be the tack that the DA writers are taking. They prefer to see quite a few people come back in one way or another.

I do not see how he can provide that much of an interesting angle as to warrant something more than a 5 minute cameo. If there is going to be a middle ground angle, again, I'd prefer a new character who has a much substantial personal experience in the matter. Say a Templar turned rogue. Or whatever that would be much more suited in providing that angle in a much better way than Alistair would. 

And other than Morrigan (potentially in the future, for obvious reasons), and the mage (and for good reason), they are not bringing many back except for pretty meaningless cameos. All the companions' stories, except Morrigan , are done and I do nto see them being back in any meangful way except for the small fanservice cameo (possible exception is Sten). 

what mage besides the  one already announced?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Do not want to spoil. It's the same one. And he didn't come back alone (and it's that part that makes his comeback interesting).

[Glorfindel709]

It's a spoiler that they're bringing back the mage? I thought they announced it

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
That being said, I disagree with the sentiment that there is NOTHING that could be done with him that would be interesting. There are many directions in which his story could go that could potentially be interesting (or not). Dismissing any potential his future story could have entirely just because one didn't like the character though, that's too much.

Directed at me?
Nothing to do with what I said. I like Zevran, Leliana, Oghren and Sten. However I feel none of them have much to offer that couldn't be done better with someone else. Same with Loghain, his story is most definitely over and I would much rather have ressources devoted elsewhere. 

Because that's what it boils down to, ressources and time. I'd much rather have Bioware devote ressources in trying to come up with new and interesting characters, rather than attempt to keep milking the same cows, just for the sake of it.

Yeah it was sort of directed at you, I just forgot to quote any post of yours. Ok, so even if it's not about liking a character, I disagree with the notion that their stories couldn't continue in an interesting way. Mind you, I'm not saying I WANT them to continue (truly, I don't, with the exception of Drunkenstair maybe, as I do feel there's potential for something interesting there), on that we're in agreement. I would also rather meet new characters and hear new stories because I did feel Origins gave most of the characters proper closure.

But you've dismissed virtually every idea thrown out there that could lead to a potentially interesting future story regarding Alistair (again... potentially interesting, not necessarily interesting for sure). I agree that shoehorning a character into a future story just for the sake of it, would be bad, but there are certain cases in which it could work.

[Zjarcal]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

It's a spoiler that they're bringing back the mage? I thought they announced it

Announcements are spoilers, technically speaking. And this is not even the Anders thread in the forum (which has a BIG "DA2 Spoilers inside" warning), so being cautious about spoilers is just being polite to those (few) who still remain unspoiled about anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
 Ok, so even if it's not about liking a character, I disagree with the notion that their stories couldn't continue in an interesting way.

They could (if stretched a lot, which in and of itself would make the whole thing feel cheap), but it would be unnecessary, and a waste of time and resources because it could be accomplished much better by a new character. Hence why I am dismissing all the ideas thrown out there just to make a character show up again.

Because Templars, Wardens, Bards, Crows, Qunari...etc. all those factions / issues are so broad , they are not defined or dependent on the same characters we already know virtually everything about and who already had closure. Since resources and time are limited, using it to tell stories with old characters whom we know everything about is a waste when it can be done much better with new characters. 

Anyways, go to go sleep. Goodnight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 05:40 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Since resources and time are limited, using it to tell stories with old characters whom we know everything about is a waste when it can be done much better with new characters.  

I agree on that. I'm not really talking about telling stories about their culture or background though, I'm referring specifically to the characters that could have something interesting left in them.

I for one feel that exiled Alistair has some potential. The fact that he was very young in Origins is another factor. People change as they grow older (especially if they go through a life changing event, i.e., Leliana after Marjolaine's betrayal). The Alistair we knew from Origins could be a very different person several years after the ending of that game. His story could continue in a meaningful way.

Is it worth it for Bioware to spend their resources on that? No, maybe not, but that doesn't mean there could be zero potential for something interesting.

[Aeowyn]

Zjarcal wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

At least he won't accuse you of betrayal for not having contacted him when you've been dead or in a coma for 2 years *looks at Mass Effect*

:lol:

Oh by the way Aeowyn, your Garrus gif in your sig is AWESOME! I especially love seeing him on a horse... 

Thanks  It's a nice change from having him calibrating all the time lol

[sylvanaerie]

To be honest, I'm glad it's all new PC's, all new stories mostly new companions, though 3 of them have previously been encountered before, though not by Hawke. I have no interest in a Drunkistair (or any other type of) encounter with King or GW Alistair. It isn't like Hawke is going to know him ANYway or even care about his story and a 1-2 minute cameo IMO is a waste of their time, Steve Valentine's talents and CD storage space. I'm far more intrigued by Fenris and Varric and Sebastian and Carver/Bethany and Aveline *added because I forgot the awesome new tank we will be getting* and I  look forward to traveling with the new guys.
Besides, considering their track record with continuity *cough*Awakenings*cough* I don't hold out much hope that any appearance with any of the former companions/love interests would have been anything more than disappointing and further mucking up my Warden's story.
I've played Origins so much I really feel a connection to only 2 of my wardens anyway and of those, only one will be my Import save (my Queen Cousland). Not because I feel she's 'more' canon than the one I do consider my 'canon' but because I feel of all my saves that may have the most impact on what will happen in DA2. (She left Flemeth alive, Killed Loghain, Gave Morrigan the OGB and married Alistair being key points to her story). She is also the only PC I have done all the DLC's with to the end of WH.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 février 2011 - 04:50 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Warden: "What sort of templar are you?"
Alistair: "Not a very good one, apparently."

Where is this conversation in the toolset?

No idea.

@KoP:  A character who is conflicted is a lot more interesting than a zealot.  I thought the mage was going to be interesting even without the twist they added, because he was conflicted about the central plot too.  But I like character dramas and don't require a lot of ZOMG flashy crap to think a story is interesting, supposing I like the characters to begin with.


SPOILER


As for characters being brought back, not going to spoil it too much, but besides Isabela and Merrill, it is likely that we will see numerous Origins people back.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 février 2011 - 03:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I for one feel that exiled Alistair has some potential. The fact that he was very young in Origins is another factor. People change as they grow older (especially if they go through a life changing event, i.e., Leliana after Marjolaine's betrayal). The Alistair we knew from Origins could be a very different person several years after the ending of that game. His story could continue in a meaningful way.

Could it be interesting for a book or short story? Sure. But we are talking about a video game, with a PC that doesn't know Alistair, and with much larger and more interesting issues at stake. Unless they want to stretch it to unrealistic levels, his story could not be that meaningful to what's happening in the Free Marches and in Thedas, except very marginally maybe if he is king of Ferelden (and even then, he would be too busy to show up for more than a cameo). 

Addai67 wrote...
@KoP: 
A character who is conflicted is a lot more interesting than a zealot.

And no where did I say I want only zealots, though zealots too can be interesting (Cullen). But I feel that a new character, with an adequate backstory, would be much better suited at potraying a conflicted view, than Alistair who is not that conflicted, he hates the idea of being a Templar from the very start, and doesn't share their ideology to begin with (in otherwords, he is not conflicted).

In essence, I think people shouldn't go like this:
"Oh I want this character back so badly! How can I make him fit?"

But rather:
"Oh I have this interesting idea / concept in mind. Who would be better suited to portray it? Do we have an old character who could do so better than a new one?"

Addai67 wrote...
As for characters being brought
back, not going to spoil it too much, but besides Isabela and Merrill,
it is likely that we will see numerous Origins people back.

For something more than a cameo, with people who already had closure and development time? Source?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[cmessaz]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Besides, considering their track record with continuity *cough*Awakenings*cough* I don't hold out much hope that any appearance with any of the former companions/love interests would have been anything more than disappointing and further mucking up my Warden's story.

This.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For something more than a cameo, with people who already had closure and development time? Source?

Some of them look to be more involved than just a throwaway cameo.   Source is the VA list plus console stuff lifted from demo files.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For something more than a cameo, with people who already had closure and development time? Source?

Some of them look to be more involved than just a throwaway cameo.   Source is the VA list plus console stuff lifted from demo files.

VA list is not evidence that they will have anything more than a small cameo, Steve Valentine is in the VA list too.
And we'll see in the actual game, but I doubt it would be more than small cameos. And it's for the best, in fact ?I think they should keep the amount of cameos to a minimum. 

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
VA list is not evidence that they will have anything more than a small cameo, Steve Valentine is in the VA list too.
And we'll see in the actual game, but I doubt it would be more than small cameos. And it's for the best, in fact ?I think they should keep the amount of cameos to a minimum. 

I said there is more than just the VA list in at least one case- two, actually.  But enough of spoiler hinting.  If anyone really wants to know, they can PM me.

[Merilsell]

Lenya and Alistair had quite the fun in playing the "stealing glances when the other is not looking"- game today. Sort of hilarious to observe, really xD

Alistair begins with looking at her, trying to be subtle (which he isn't)



Oh crap, she noticed that I stared  *inner flail*



S-she is looking directly at me *more flailing*



Dum di dum di dum I did not look. No. *whistle* Awkward.



But I adore this pic most: Lenya checking Alistair out when he is too busy with panicking in his mind, lol.



I love this game. Where else can I get so amused about the body language of two bunch of pixels?

[sylvanaerie]

hehe cute pics Merilsell. Alistair trying to sneak a peek is so adorable! I try to get things like that in game when they happen too because it's just too cute! Lately I've been taking piccies of my favorite banters !