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[Giggles_Manically]

Maria13 wrote...

@GM that you should be sneaky and cunning dealing with your enemies rather than forthright?
That a strong King should allow a ruthless enemy and rival to live?
That an old general can make even an Archdemon die of indigestion?

Nope.

That politicans exist in a brutal world full of crulety and lies.
If he cant learn that lesson he should not be on the throne.

Nice guys finish dead last in politics. 

[Maria13]

I say you equate intelligence with seriousness and/or selfishness and Alistair is neither. I think it's more than that.

I note your examples.

PS Einstein says hi...

Modifié par Maria13, 03 mars 2011 - 10:41 .

[Maricsblade]

@Maria, @rak, good points. He does have good insight and judgment and tends to see people and situations for what they are, rather than how they're presented. Contrast that with, say, Leliana, who was completely taken in by someone as treacherous as Marjolaine.

@KoP, how in the world is Zevran more intelligent than Alistair?

By the way, nowhere did I ask whether Alistair would make a good king or politician. Ambition and the desire to rule over others are separate traits. I simply asked why he's teased in the game as being unintelligent when he is not.

[Maria13]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

@GM that you should be sneaky and cunning dealing with your enemies rather than forthright?
That a strong King should allow a ruthless enemy and rival to live?
That an old general can make even an Archdemon die of indigestion?

Nope.

That politicans exist in a brutal world full of crulety and lies.
If he cant learn that lesson he should not be on the throne.

Nice guys finish dead last in politics. 

So then he's right to chop Loggy's head off, isn't he?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

I say you equate intelligence with seriousness and/or selfishness and Alistair is neither. I think it's more than that.

Re-read what I said.

@ Aligirl.
Since I don't have the benefit of IQ tests, I can only base it on what I see. Zevran for instance almost instantly saw Harrowmont for whatr he is. He also can offer compelling and rational arguments when dealing with quests.

[Maria13]

Re-read what I said.

[Giggles_Manically]

Maria13 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

@GM that you should be sneaky and cunning dealing with your enemies rather than forthright?
That a strong King should allow a ruthless enemy and rival to live?
That an old general can make even an Archdemon die of indigestion?

Nope.

That politicans exist in a brutal world full of crulety and lies.
If he cant learn that lesson he should not be on the throne.

Nice guys finish dead last in politics. 

So then he's right to chop Loggy's head off, isn't he?

Nope.

He only talks when things dont go his way.
I am using this as.. a learning example and a political move to get Anora on my side.

I well.. hate hearing him go: OMG OMG MAKE ME KING SO I CAN MURDER HIM NAO!
Sorry Alistair but that was not what the terms we were given for the duel. 

[Maricsblade]

@KoP You are talking about the distinction between emotionally based decision-making and rational decision-making. Obviously you strongly prefer the latter; if you are familiar with Myers Briggs personality types, Zevran is an ST, Morrigan is an NT, Loghain is some type of T. But that trait also is separate from intelligence. Otherwise only scientists, lawyers, and engineers--and not novelists, educators, or diplomats--could ever be called brilliant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

Re-read what I said.

I'll play along and explain my post to you.

Maria13 wrote...

I say you equate intelligence with seriousness and/or selfishness and Alistair is neither. I think it's more than that.

I don't think wit is
necessarily an indicator of intelligence, though there are many types
of intelligence. Academic, "street smarts", "money smarts",
cunning...etc. 

I don't think Alistair is very or exceptionally
bright, but he is not stupid either. He's goofy, but it would be
superficial to dismiss him as stupid just based on that. He's bright,
and he was good at Templar studies. And apparently he was good at mental
discipline (sadly we see none of that in the game).

I'd say he
is fairly intelligent, and can have critical thinking. His main problem
however is will, or lack thereof. And that he'd rather "follow his
heart" and not his head in many instances. So it's not the capacity he
lacks, but the will and "methodology" for the lack of a better word.
Which could be fixed if hardened, though I didn't see that much
improvement  in the game.

I don't find him very intelligent or
exceptionally so, unlike say Anora, Zevran and Bhelen. But he is
certainly bright and not stupid (most of the time).

To simplify. It's not the intelligence he lacks, he lacks the will and attitude to use it and make it useful. 

So no, I do not equate intelligence with seriousness. I say that seriousness and will are necessary to put intelligence into good use. Alistair can be serious when he needs to, but lacks the will and maturity. Which is not saying that he lacks intelligence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

alisgirl wrote...

@KoP You are talking about the distinction between emotionally based decision-making and rational decision-making. Obviously you strongly prefer the latter; if you are familiar with Myers Briggs personality types, Zevran is an ST, Morrigan is an NT, Loghain is some type of T. But that trait also is separate from intelligence. Otherwise only scientists, lawyers, and engineers--and not novelists, educators, or diplomats--could ever be called brilliant.

That's not what I am talking about. I said that what I saw of Zevran points to more intelligence, or at least better use of it. But since I don't have IQ tests (which I don't believe are strong indicators anyways), this is purely an opinion based on observation. It could very well be that Alsitair is smarter than Zevran, I don't know.

Which is not that important to me, I prefer intelligence that is used vs supposedely hidden intelligence that isn't being used.

[Maricsblade]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alisgirl wrote...

@KoP You are talking about the distinction between emotionally based decision-making and rational decision-making. Obviously you strongly prefer the latter; if you are familiar with Myers Briggs personality types, Zevran is an ST, Morrigan is an NT, Loghain is some type of T. But that trait also is separate from intelligence. Otherwise only scientists, lawyers, and engineers--and not novelists, educators, or diplomats--could ever be called brilliant.

That's not what I am talking about. I said that what I saw of Zevran points to more intelligence, or at least better use of it. But since I don't have IQ tests (which I don't believe are strong indicators anyways), this is purely an opinion based on observation. It could very well be that Alsitair is smarter than Zevran, I don't know.

Which is not that important to me, I prefer intelligence that is used vs supposedely hidden intelligence that isn't being used.

I think it is what you're talking about; you just aren't realizing it. You see "rational" decisions as being "intelligent" and "emotional" decisions as being "unintelligent," or as not "making use of" one's intelligence. It isn't good or bad; it's just something to know about yourself. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

alisgirl wrote...
I think it is what you're talking about; you just aren't realizing it. You see "rational" decisions as being "intelligent" and "emotional" decisions as being "unintelligent," or as not "making use of" one's intelligence. It isn't good or bad; it's just something to know about yourself. 

The first part is not what I am talking about and I realize what I am saying. Rationality and intelligence are not identical. The second part is not exactly what I am saying. However, when emotional reactions cloud reason (as in when they go in opposition, which they don't always do, and emotions overrule reason in the head of the decision maker), then yes, I would not consider whatever decision that will result in to be intelligent. That does not mean that the decision maker lacks intelligence. Just doesn't know how to use it.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mars 2011 - 11:21 .

[Maricsblade]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alisgirl wrote...
I think it is what you're talking about; you just aren't realizing it. You see "rational" decisions as being "intelligent" and "emotional" decisions as being "unintelligent," or as not "making use of" one's intelligence. It isn't good or bad; it's just something to know about yourself. 

The first part is not what I am talking about and I realize what I am saying. Rationality and intelligence are not identical. The second part is not exactly what I am saying. However, when emotional reactions cloud reason (as in when they go in opposition, which they don't always do, and emotions overrule reason in the head of the decision maker), then yes, I would not consider whatever decision that will result in to be intelligent. 

So because Alistair has hated Loghain since Ostagar and has had a burning fire in his belly ever since to kill the guy, his reaction to sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet is not an "emotional reaction" -- it's a long-considered position that's in line with every value that he holds dear. However, his desire to execute Loghain or abandon the Wardens is still an emotional decision because it's based on his values rather than on practical concerns like "Could we use another Warden?" or "Would this help us politically?" etc. So...are those decisions intelligent or not?

[rak72]

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ

Modifié par rak72, 03 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

alisgirl wrote...
So because Alistair has hated Loghain since Ostagar and has had a burning fire in his belly ever since to kill the guy, his reaction to sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet is not an "emotional reaction" -- it's a long-considered position that's in line with every value that he holds dear. However, his desire to execute Loghain or abandon the Wardens is still an emotional decision because it's based on his values rather than on practical concerns like "Could we use another Warden?" or "Would this help us politically?" etc. So...are those decisions intelligent or not?

Whether it was based on beliefs or solely vengeance is independent from intelligence (I do not think Alsitair was thinking in terms oif values, but rather mostly if not solely revenge, but that's besides the point).  Vengeful people can be very intelligent in their quest to acquire revenge, though I'd say that's a waste of intelligence.
So this has little to do with intelligence. But rather with whether it's rational or not, and I think it's irrational. 

The only thing I could qualify as stupid on Alsitair's part is saying this: "I didn't want to be king. I still don't, but if that's what it takes to see Loghain get justice, I'll do it. I'll take the crown".
If that was seriously meant to convince anyone, then it's a stupid argument. If it's an outburst (which is more likely), then it is more irrational than unintelligent.

Other than that, I do not find his reaction to be either intelligent or unintelligent. I rather qualify it as irrational, immature and childish.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mars 2011 - 11:37 .

[Maricsblade]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alisgirl wrote...
So because Alistair has hated Loghain since Ostagar and has had a burning fire in his belly ever since to kill the guy, his reaction to sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet is not an "emotional reaction" -- it's a long-considered position that's in line with every value that he holds dear. However, his desire to execute Loghain or abandon the Wardens is still an emotional decision because it's based on his values rather than on practical concerns like "Could we use another Warden?" or "Would this help us politically?" etc. So...are those decisions intelligent or not?

Whether it was based on beliefs or solely vengeance is independent from intelligence (I do not think Alsitair was thinking in terms oif values, but rather mostly if not solely revenge, but that's besides the point).  Vengeful people can be very intelligent in their quest to acquire revenge, though I'd say that's a waste of intelligence.
So this has little to do with intelligence. But rather with whether it's rational or not, and I think it's irrational. 

The only thing I could qualify as stupid on Alsitair's part is saying this: "I didn't want to be king. I still don't, but if that's what it takes to see Loghain get justice, I'll do it. I'll take the crown".
If that was seriously meant to convince anyone, then it's a stupid argument. If it's an outburst (which is more likely), then it is more irrational than unintelligent.

Other than that, I do not find his reaction to be either intelligent or unintelligent. I rather qualify it as irrational, immature and childish.

I agree that it's ridiculous to take on ruling an entire nation for the rest of one's life just to put one guy to death. OTOH I like the idea that someone with a strong sense of justice (and I've laid out before all the reasons why in a non-alternate DA universe I will execute Loghain every f**king time, meaning that I see it as justice and not revenge) would end up on the throne. In theory he could even decide that he liked meting out justice and that would be one of his main reasons for becoming king. Unfortunately, as we know from the epilogue, unhardened Ali still doesn't take much of an interest in ruling.

[Yankee23]

rak72 wrote...

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ
[snip]

LMAO!

[Jon Jern_]

I take out the "the" in "psychotherapist"

On topic picture :

http://cloud.steampo...B15F5F9BEC670D/

Still haven't started those DA playthroughs. Life is good.

[Zjarcal]

rak72 wrote...

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ

The most convicing argument ever made. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ

The most convicing argument ever made. 

Yea, even I was convinced.

[Yankee23]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ

The most convicing argument ever made. 

Yea, even I was convinced.

Now that's funny!

[Zeleen]

Alistair - Being "King"



Who can resist this "Man-boy"???  GAWD he is so frikken cute!!

Modifié par Zeleen, 04 mars 2011 - 06:30 .

[Maria13]

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Loghain sucks, Alistair RULEZ

The most convicing argument ever made. 

Yea, even I was convinced.

Now that's funny!

Hey this is a gush thread right? I say that's a good argument... and this...

[Maria13]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

@GM that you should be sneaky and cunning dealing with your enemies rather than forthright?
That a strong King should allow a ruthless enemy and rival to live?
That an old general can make even an Archdemon die of indigestion?

Nope.

That politicans exist in a brutal world full of crulety and lies.
If he cant learn that lesson he should not be on the throne.

Nice guys finish dead last in politics. 

So then he's right to chop Loggy's head off, isn't he?

Nope.

He only talks when things dont go his way.
I am using this as.. a learning example and a political move to get Anora on my side.

I well.. hate hearing him go: OMG OMG MAKE ME KING SO I CAN MURDER HIM NAO!
Sorry Alistair but that was not what the terms we were given for the duel. 

Oh, so despite the fact that nice guys finish last in politics, your words, not mine, and that this is a lesson he needs to learn, so you say... He's supposed to stick to the terms of the duel...

I think you are contradicting yourself...

If he abided by the duel's rules is he not being the nice guy you deplore and not learning the lesson he needs to learn?

Do you think Loghain would have accepted Ali's surrender? I don't.



Killing Loghain is a turning point for Ali. A positive one he positively glows afterwards...

Modifié par Maria13, 04 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[Glorfindel709]

@Zeleen

Gah too much like The Golden Ponce