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[sylvanaerie]

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

[LadyDamodred]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm listening to the 12:03 podcast now.  One of the interesting things he said is that Maric was a rogue.  I guess I hadn't pictured that, but it makes sense.  Sooo... DW Ali and Archerstair is bringing Alistair closer to his roots after the templars corrupted him.  

A rogue.  That wore plate.  A wielded a sword and shield. 

[Sarah1281]

Axekix wrote...

Woah, why is everyone jumping all over Cailan? Aside from the RtO letters we really don't know anything about Celene, but apparently he felt she was trustworthy.

I don't see any reason to automatically assume the worst from their union. If anything I think it would have been a positive step towards mending relations between the two nations.

Granted it wouldn't be a popular political move (at first) but if the nations had united to stop the blight I think many more people would warm to the idea (aside from Loghain that is...).

You mean other than the fact that when two rulers married in medieval times it tended to combine their kingdom and Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is a small nation that's only recently regained its independence? 

[Monica21]

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
This brings up an interesting problem. How much consideration can we give things that were intended to be part of the plot, but never made it, given that (a), we don't know the whole story, only a sliver, and ( they technically never happened.

No, they did happen, as RtO showed.
"So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a a callback to what was happening there"

And there is no reason that could have made this a smart move.

I have to listen to the exact quote again. Looking back, I'm not certain that he actually confirmed that a match was in fact arranged, just that Celene was visiting because Cailan was going to divorce Anora. I could be wrong about that, but he didn't actually say that Cailan was going to marry Celene, I'm fairly sure. Whatever it is, there was certainly more to the story than we know, because Eamon is no fool, whatever one may think of Cailan. Wherever Cailan was looking for a new bride, I'm betting that it was all part of Eamon's orchestration, since Cailan didn't want to do it in the first place.

I don't want to take this any farther OT than it is, but phaonica transcribed the question and Gaider's reply on page 43 of the Loghain thread. He did confirm that Cailan planned to marry Celene.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[errant_knight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
I have to listen to the exact quote again. Looking back, I'm not certain that he actually confirmed that a match was in fact arranged, just that Celene was visiting because Cailan was going to divorce Anora. I could be wrong about that, but he didn't actually say that Cailan was going to marry Celene, I'm fairly sure.

The question specifically said "was Cailan goig to divorce Anora for Celene", and Gaider said yes. So yes, we know. And yes, Eamon is a fool. 

@ Axe.
Yes, because there is no risk for the bigger, more populated, more powerful, richer Orlesian Empire to absorb the weaker, poorer. barely civilised backward Ferleden.  

[sylvanaerie]

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

I don't see anything in the posts about Alistair, all I see is people ragging on Cailan and talking about Celene, Loghain and Anora. 

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Woah, why is everyone jumping all over Cailan? Aside from the RtO letters we really don't know anything about Celene, but apparently he felt she was trustworthy.

I don't see any reason to automatically assume the worst from their union. If anything I think it would have been a positive step towards mending relations between the two nations.

Granted it wouldn't be a popular political move (at first) but if the nations had united to stop the blight I think many more people would warm to the idea (aside from Loghain that is...).

You mean other than the fact that when two rulers married in medieval times it tended to combine their kingdom and Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is a small nation that's only recently regained its independence? 

Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

Edit: oh sorry, forgot about the OT-rules.  Sigh...

Modifié par Axekix, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[errant_knight]

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
This brings up an interesting problem. How much consideration can we give things that were intended to be part of the plot, but never made it, given that (a), we don't know the whole story, only a sliver, and ( they technically never happened.

No, they did happen, as RtO showed.
"So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a a callback to what was happening there"

And there is no reason that could have made this a smart move.

I have to listen to the exact quote again. Looking back, I'm not certain that he actually confirmed that a match was in fact arranged, just that Celene was visiting because Cailan was going to divorce Anora. I could be wrong about that, but he didn't actually say that Cailan was going to marry Celene, I'm fairly sure. Whatever it is, there was certainly more to the story than we know, because Eamon is no fool, whatever one may think of Cailan. Wherever Cailan was looking for a new bride, I'm betting that it was all part of Eamon's orchestration, since Cailan didn't want to do it in the first place.

I don't want to take this any farther OT than it is, but phaonica transcribed the question and Gaider's reply on page 43 of the Loghain thread. He did confirm that Cailan planned to marry Celene.

I sure am curious as to what it is that we don't know about that whole plan, but I guess we'll never know. I'll leave it at that.

[Monica21]

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

Well, and that's an interesting question. Has Gaider ever confirmed whether Cailan knew that Alistair was his half-brother?

[Yankee23]

Back shot.

[errant_knight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

I don't see anything in the posts about Alistair, all I see is people ragging on Cailan and talking about Celene, Loghain and Anora. 

Well, gee, you could have helped pull the discussion to how it does relate to Alistair intead of finger wagging, huh?

[Sarah1281]

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Woah, why is everyone jumping all over Cailan? Aside from the RtO letters we really don't know anything about Celene, but apparently he felt she was trustworthy.

I don't see any reason to automatically assume the worst from their union. If anything I think it would have been a positive step towards mending relations between the two nations.

Granted it wouldn't be a popular political move (at first) but if the nations had united to stop the blight I think many more people would warm to the idea (aside from Loghain that is...).

You mean other than the fact that when two rulers married in medieval times it tended to combine their kingdom and Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is a small nation that's only recently regained its independence? 

Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

They were already part of the Orlesian Empire once they were conquered. They didn't like it. They don't want to go back there. They fought for independence and want to keep it.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

Well, and that's an interesting question. Has Gaider ever confirmed whether Cailan knew that Alistair was his half-brother?

Anora confirms it.

[LadyDamodred]

Yankee23 wrote...

Back shot.
*snip*

Hot~!

Monica:  Anora knew and says Cailan knew.  I trust her on that one.

[Merilsell]

Fully OnT Pic to fill the blanks:

[errant_knight]

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what has any of this to do with Alistair? Do we want to close down this thread for being off topic too?

It has to do with Alistair because if Cailan was looking for a new heir elsewhere it affects theories about why Alistair was in the Chantry, and why they didn't want him to leave, as well as whether Cailan might have had the notion of naming him heir before the battle at Ostagar. I'm guessing this means no, but that faced with the battle that he was, the decided to protect Alistair ands the only heir he had.

Well, and that's an interesting question. Has Gaider ever confirmed whether Cailan knew that Alistair was his half-brother?

Well, we know they met, but not in what capacity, or what was said. I've always figured that Eamon wouldn't be able to do anything with Alistair that Marric didn't approve of, but Cailan wouldn't have to know anything about that. Sending Alistair to the tower of Ishal was pretty pointed, though. He could have just told Duncan to send a couple of wardens. Edit: I'd forgotten that Anora confirmed it--thanks, guys!

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

At the cost of its independence and sovereignity? Of its very identity and culture?
This would be nothing less than a subtle invasion.

And the offsprings of the king will be educated in Orlais and will be for all intents and purposes Orlesian.

[Monica21]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Back shot.
*snip*

Hot~!

Monica:  Anora knew and says Cailan knew.  I trust her on that one.

Ah, been too long. Well, that's curious then. It's possible he sent Alistair to the Tower for the same reason he didn't invite Eamon's soldiers, and that was to keep him from "getting in on the glory."

[tuppence95]

 Yeah, seems like everyone knew Alistair was Cailan's half brother.  Anora said Cailan knew.  Alistiar said Loghain knew.

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Woah, why is everyone jumping all over Cailan? Aside from the RtO letters we really don't know anything about Celene, but apparently he felt she was trustworthy.

I don't see any reason to automatically assume the worst from their union. If anything I think it would have been a positive step towards mending relations between the two nations.

Granted it wouldn't be a popular political move (at first) but if the nations had united to stop the blight I think many more people would warm to the idea (aside from Loghain that is...).

You mean other than the fact that when two rulers married in medieval times it tended to combine their kingdom and Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is a small nation that's only recently regained its independence? 

Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

They were already part of the Orlesian Empire once they were conquered. They didn't like it. They don't want to go back there. They fought for independence and want to keep it.

Well needless to say there is a difference between being occupied/conquered and allying with an empire.  With Cailan on the throne I doubt he'd allow injustices on his people, if anything I thought of Cailan as a (overly optimistic) visionary.

[errant_knight]

Monica21 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Back shot.
*snip*

Hot~!

Monica:  Anora knew and says Cailan knew.  I trust her on that one.

Ah, been too long. Well, that's curious then. It's possible he sent Alistair to the Tower for the same reason he didn't invite Eamon's soldiers, and that was to keep him from "getting in on the glory."

I thought he didn't want to wait on Eamon's soldiers, not that he didn't invite them, but in any case, I think he was preserving the only heir he had--and the only person capable (as far as he knew) of producing a Theirin heir.

 Axekix, Sarah, why don't you see if you can find a way to relate what you're interested in to Alistair--I'm sure there's a way if you're creative.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Axekix wrote...
Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

At the cost of its independence and sovereignity? Of its very identity and culture?
This would be nothing less than a subtle invasion.

And the offsprings of the king will be educated in Orlais and will be for all intents and purposes Orlesian.

Rome and Han Dynasty China had this down to a T.
Empires are never good things to merge with.

[Monica21]

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Woah, why is everyone jumping all over Cailan? Aside from the RtO letters we really don't know anything about Celene, but apparently he felt she was trustworthy.

I don't see any reason to automatically assume the worst from their union. If anything I think it would have been a positive step towards mending relations between the two nations.

Granted it wouldn't be a popular political move (at first) but if the nations had united to stop the blight I think many more people would warm to the idea (aside from Loghain that is...).

You mean other than the fact that when two rulers married in medieval times it tended to combine their kingdom and Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is a small nation that's only recently regained its independence? 

Yes, what exactly would be so bad about that?  Fereldan merging with Orlais would bring a lot of wealth, power and political influence to the country.  And the king would be of Fereldan blood.  It's not as if Fereldans would suddenly become enslaved again.

They were already part of the Orlesian Empire once they were conquered. They didn't like it. They don't want to go back there. They fought for independence and want to keep it.

Well needless to say there is a difference between being occupied/conquered and allying with an empire.  With Cailan on the throne I doubt he'd allow injustices on his people, if anything I thought of Cailan as a (overly optimistic) visionary.

The Banns didn't like Loghain, The Hero of River Dane, declaring himself Regent. What exactly would make them and anyone else totally fine with allowing a previous, rather brutal, occupant back in their lands? This isn't an alliance, it's Celene's way to get Ferelden back under Orlesian control. If Cailan allowed himself to be ruled by Anora, imagine what Celene could do to him. He might even manage to find himself dead as soon as he produced an heir, if he did produce an heir.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
Well needless to say there is a difference between being occupied/conquered and allying with an empire. 

No, there is not. Many Empires expanded via this tactic of absorbing weaker states and nations.
And this is not an alliance, this is a merger.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:41 .