39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
I don't really think it's that black and white.  The two countries coming together doesn't mean Fereldan's history and culture just automatically goes out the window (unless they allow it to I suppose).

Not automatically. But consider this. Religion is a very important part of culture. Where is the heart of the Chantry? Orlais. Which country is better educated, more sophisticated? Orlais.
Commerce and trade are also great ways to spread one's culture. Which is the richer nation? Orlais.

With time, Ferelden would have lost everything that made it what it was.

Axekix wrote... 
As for independence, well I suppose that's a matter of perspective.  At the time they were worried about being overrun by the blight.  Independence serves little purpose if your nation is burned to the ground. 

There was no proof this was a blight. And it wasn't necessary to merge with Orlais to help fight it. An alliance? I can understand. A merger? That's giving Ferelden on a silver platter.
 

Axekix wrote...
It seems that Cailan wanted to strengthen his country and mend bridges with Orlais for a peaceful future.  It doesn't seem so terrible to me.

As a political science student, it sounds horrible to me.
You keep confusiong ?emnding bridges" and merging. This was a merger, and not a normalisation of diplomatic relations.
A stronger nation merging with a weaker one, cannot result in a situation where both are on an equal footing. Orlais is richer, more prosperous, more powerful, has cultural influence via the Chantry, while Ferelden is backwards, poor, barely civilised. The Emperors and Empresses would have been raised as Orlesians and the end run would be Orlais ruling over Ferelden.

Cailan was selling his own nation for a crown on his empty head. There is nothign mroe horrible than a king selling his own nation. The ultimate betrayal.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Maric wore full plate.  *shrugs*  That says warrior to me, not rogue.  And I thought I recalled talk of a shield.  I will poke through the books after.  And I didn't see his mission to kill Severan as particulary sneaky.  *shrugs*  Nothing about his skills or demeanor in either book says rogue to me. Are you sure DG meant it as the class and not just a descriptor?  I mean, Loghain in the beginning of the TST is totally a rogue, and yet ends up a S&S warrior.

Again, I don't see armor as an issue.  Some people build rogues to wear heavy armor.  Gaider didn't really elaborate.  The question was "Was Maric a rogue?", he repeated the question and said "yes, Maric was a rogue."  That was it.

Killing Severan was a one-man mission into the heart of an Orlesian camp.  It was a stealth mission.

classes don't really make sense to me, of course.  In the real world an experienced fighter might learn many different fighting styles, though they probably have a favored weapon.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[errant_knight]

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

cmessaz wrote...


Wow, this info shocks me. Umm, I'm gonna say that I officially feel sorry for Anora, and Cailen was indeed an ****.

Actually, you should listen to what David Gaider said about it. He makes it sound like Cailan didn't have much choice but to divorce Anora. He went into that part in some detail.

LadyDamodred wrote...

As for Cailan sending Alistair to the tower.... I don't think it was to keep him from glory, I truly don't.  I really do like to think it was Cailan realizing at the last moment that he should make sure there was some provision in case the worst happened.  I'd like to think he had enough foresight for that.

That's how I see it too.

Except that Cailan is the king and can do whatever he wants. He was acting on advice, presumably from Eamon considering that's the other letter you read. He certainly doesn't have to do anything about Anora, let alone divorce her and marry the Orlesian empress, for Andraste's sake.

Acorrding to DG, it was all about preventing civil war, and continuing the Theirin line.

He doesn't need to marry the Empress to do that though.

No, but plots in DA are involved. There's no way that's all there is to it. Not a chance. In anycase--and I say once more--Alistair--how does this relate to him?? This might indicate trouble for Alistair and a Queen Cousland--who knows? Maybe that's where they go in the Awakening slide....

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[LadyDamodred]

Axekix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Axekix wrote...
Well needless to say there is a difference between being occupied/conquered and allying with an empire.  With Cailan on the throne I doubt he'd allow injustices on his people, if anything I thought of Cailan as a (overly optimistic) visionary.

I think the issue is that Ferelden would not see it as an alliance, but as a sneaky take-over type of deal.  If the intent is to produce heirs, Cailan and Celene would have to spend time in each other's company, and that would require at least one monarch to be away fromt heir country.  Shall we place bets on which monarch that would be?

And I think Cailan was overly optomistic, but not a visionary.  He seemed like a good guy, if slightly too naive.  he probably could have gotten away with marrying an Orlesian noble, but the Empress?  I think Fereldans would have freaked out.  Like KoP said, and we discussed it in the old thread, the children would have been raised in Orlais, educated in Orlais.  When they came of age, it would be putting an Orlesian on the throne, regardless of who their father was.

Well as far as heirs are concerned, being Orlesian or Fereldan should be less of an issue by that point.  Even if they're raised as orlesians, they'd have a Fereldan father who was by most accounts a good man.  I suppose I don't see the problem, unless we're presuming all Orlesians hold contemptuous views towards Fereldan.

I think most Orlesians would hold contemputous views of Fereldans and vice-versa.  Look at England and France throughout most of their history.  To the English, if their monarch has an english king for a father, but was raised in France and was for all intents and purposes, French, how well do you think that would go over?  Look at how fiercely people cling to nationality.  An alliance like that between Ferelden adn Orlais would be an unequal one.

This is why extra children of monarchs were promised to each other, so that the ruling monarchs would not have to deal with this situation.

[cmessaz]

My dad's a phone and internet repair man but I don't know jack about it.



Anyway, I have nothing really Alistair related to post other than...you know I love him. So good night!

[Merilsell]

It's concerning the world he lives in? He surely appreciates it as a future ruler to not overtake Ferelden as a even more fukked up country like the blight already has managed to do it.

Or something to that account

[Monica21]

errant_knight wrote...
No, but plots in DA are involved. There's no way that's all there is to it. Not a chance. In anycase--and I say once more--Alistair--how does this relate to him?? This might indicate trouble for Alistair and a Queen Cousland--who knows? Maybe that's where they go in the Awakening slide....

Um, I was just answering a question. I suppose if anyone has any questions about this perhaps it should go to the Loghain thread.

[Merilsell]

I this pic.

[tuppence95]

I became active on this forum right around the time the new thread was started.  So I don't know all the history.  But I guess they locked the old thread because there was too much non-Alistair discussion?  Is that right?

I'll feel awful if my posting an update on Gaider's Q&A resulted in the new thread being closed.  So yeah.... probably it would be best if further talk about Loghain be moved to Loghain's thread.

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You keep confusiong ?emnding bridges" and merging. This was a merger, and not a normalisation of diplomatic relations.
A stronger nation merging with a weaker one, cannot result in a situation where both are on an equal footing. Orlais is richer, more prosperous, more powerful, has cultural influence via the Chantry, while Ferelden is backwards, poor, barely civilised. The Emperors and Empresses would have been raised as Orlesians and the end run would be Orlais ruling over Ferelden.

I have to ask, what consequence you see this having for Fereldans.  You think they would become second class citizens?  While Cailan is ruling there is little chance of injustices against Fereldans being tolerated, and if he's working towards smoothing relations diplomatically while on the throne, why assume things would be worse when his heirs take over? 

[LadyDamodred]

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

[errant_knight]

My bad. I guess Sylvanairie was right--coming down hard and cutting off discussion entirely is the way to do it. Sorry, Sylvanairie. You right, me wrong.

[cmessaz]

Also remember 2 things. Alistair LOVES his wife (in some instances), where Cailen and Anora were arranged. Also, we are talking about the hero of Ferelden.


O.o um...it seems pretty Alistair related atm.....

Modifié par cmessaz, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

Actually, we have some evidence. At first Cailan was very angry with Eamon, according to the letter....

[Sarah1281]

errant_knight wrote...

My bad. I guess Sylvanairie was right--coming down hard and cutting off discussion entirely is the way to do it. Sorry, Sylvanairie. You right, me wrong.

We can talk about it here.

[errant_knight]

cmessaz wrote...

Also remember 2 things. Alistair LOVES his wife (in some instances), where Cailen and Anora were arranged. Also, we are talking about the hero of Ferelden.


O.o um...it seems pretty Alistair related atm.....

Well, it wasn't when I was typing...or I wouldn't have posted.

[Yankee23]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

This. Also, I know it's metagaming, but if Anora is sole queen she refuses to re-marry. No heir there either. So when I play my Cousland I'm not really all that concerned with the heir thing. Alistair will figure something out when the time comes.

[Addai]

cmessaz wrote...

Also remember 2 things. Alistair LOVES his wife (in some instances), where Cailen and Anora were arranged. Also, we are talking about the hero of Ferelden.

Yes, I've always said that people too casually talk about marrying Alistair to Anora and call an Alistair-PC match "selfish," because in both Maric and Rowan and Cailan and Anora you so clearly see the down side of a political marriage.  It can work, but it has its disadvantages too.

I do think it underlines the importance of the heir.  Alistair wasn't exaggerating about this.  He does have some political instincts, besides just growing up in Ferelden and close to noble circles.

[Axekix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

This I agree with.  If anything, Alistair is ridiculously loyal.  Having done the post Landsmeet convo, once he's convinced to stay with you he's pretty determined to keep it that way, so I would assume he'd be equally adamant about keeping his queen.

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

Actually, we have some evidence. At first Cailan was very angry with Eamon, according to the letter....

Being angry at first does not mean the same thing as fighting for her.  He could have just as easily been angry that he thought his uncle was sticking his nose into something that had nothing to do with him.  And since less than a year later, he was planning on divorcing Anora to marry Celene I think shows he didn't fight nearly as hard as Alistair would.

I mean, what possible argument could you use with Alistair to get him to put his Queen Cousland aside?

[cmessaz]

I think the general theme is no heir so I don't feel bad at all for being queen with my Couslands.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
I have to ask, what consequence you see this having for Fereldans.  You think they would become second class citizens?  While Cailan is ruling there is little chance of injustices against Fereldans being tolerated, and if he's working towards smoothing relations diplomatically while on the throne, why assume things would be worse when his heirs take over? 

You rely on Cailan doing any of that? He didn't even know what was happening in his own capital city (alienage). How would he know what happens when he lives in Orlais?
And once again, it's not "smoothing relations diplomatically", it's merger. Vastly differnt things.

Because his heirs would be raised as Orlesians and would think like Orlesians. Why would they identify with the barely civilized Fereldans?

[inclemency]

Queen Cousland would have been savvy enough to put a solid ally at Gwaran, and between that, and her brother in Highever would have a solid base of support, never mind having Alistair, as well.

[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

Alistair bucking the nobles regarding an elven councillor is a good precedent here.  His time in the Chantry was not spent learning how to be a conformist, quite the opposite- he was scrubbing pots.  I see his approach to the kingship in similar fashion.  He knows when he can push something and when not.

I'm sad about Cailan being confirmed to be such an idiot, but it makes King Alistair look all the better.  Underlines how tragically wrong Maric was in not recognizing him.  Of course, if Alistair hadn't grown up rough, he might have been a different man.

[LadyDamodred]

Addai67 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Getting back to Anora being put aside because she was barren, and thinking that Alistair would do the sae to Queen Cousland.... I think those fears are unfounded. Alistair knows damn well that they will likely never have kids, and so arguments to put her aside aren't going to have very much weight. I also think, either hardened or unhardened, once married, Alistair would fight to keep his Queen. And while we have no evidence that Cailan didn't do that, it seems less likely.

Alistair bucking the nobles regarding an elven councillor is a good precedent here.  His time in the Chantry was not spent learning how to be a conformist, quite the opposite- he was scrubbing pots.  I see his approach to the kingship in similar fashion.  He knows when he can push something and when not.

I'm sad about Cailan being confirmed to be such an idiot, but it makes King Alistair look all the better.  Underlines how tragically wrong Maric was in not recognizing him.  Of course, if Alistair hadn't grown up rough, he might have been a different man.

Indeed.  There are a lot of similarities between Maric's childhood and Alistair's.  Thry are very, very similar in how they think about the kingship.  I think had Cailan not been raised as a prince, he probably would have turned out very close to what Maric and hardened Alistair are.