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[Kryyptehk]

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I've always taken that to mean that Alistair assumes that Loghain knows, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he does.  After the Calling, I've always suspected that Loghain actually knew very little about Maric's bastard son other than he existed - I even suspect that Maric either outright lied to him or allowed Loghain to come up with his own conclusions about where the child came from and who his mother was.

Oh, and tuppence, you did get to see my little take on Ferelden's end if the Grey Wardens were killed, right?

Right, I think it's safe to say that by The Calling, Loghain was no longer Maric's best friend, so Alistair was just assuming from the stories like everyone else.

So sad that he knew so little about his dad. 

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

I think they told him since the beginning so he wouldn't find out later and want to be king. Continously stunting his self-esteem and shipping him to the Templars probably seemed better than his sister finding him later and telling him.

Or his not!Sister, depending...

[Monica21]

tuppence95 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
Loghain was there when Cailan insisted that Alistair be the one to light the beacon.  He looked up and saw the beacon lit.  So either Alistair or our warden or both survived.

Also, when I said I would've loved to have seen his face when he discovered what he had done, I meant when he discovered that he had condemned Ferelden with no Grey Wardens left to kill the archdemon.

He also knew the beacon was late, indicating problems getting to it. I don't think there's any way to know if Loghain knew Alistair was alive.

edit: I should add that if he did know or even suspect, it wouldn't surprise me if he intended to have Alistair killed, given his relationship with Eamon and Eamon's willingness to pull the strings. Eamon was the one who advised Cailan to put Anora aside after all. I don't think Alistair is stupid enough to marry the Orlesian empress, but he does sway to Eamon's decisions. One reason why I've always made my Warden his Chancellor if I put him on the throne.

He likely did know.  That's probably why he decided not to say anything about the huge hole they found leading to beneath the tower.  He probably assumed that Alistair and the warden would be killed by the darkspawn before they could light the beacon.  But once he saw that the beacon was lit, it's pretty likely he would figure out that it was a Grey Warden who lit it.

At the risk of going back off topic, Gaider said Loghain didn't know the tower would be overrun, so it happened after the darkspawn charged and after Loghain thought the tower was secure. This can be confirmed by the ingame evidence of troops being attacked by darkspawn after you arrive. They found tunnels beneath, likely through the same entrance/exit point you use to get to the battlefield in RtO, but that doesn't mean the hole was already there.

The hole must've been there before Alistair and the warden are told to go to the tower.

These took place before the Joining.

The pictures don't say anything about a hole, just tunnels. We know the tunnels are there because there's an exit under the Tower onto the battlefield. Why would Loghain leave his troops trapped in a tower with darkspawn?

[Addai]

Yankee23 wrote...

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

Edit: correction - maybe lied to about who his mother was.

They never really say.  The theory we've bandied about here is that either Isolde blabbed it, or Eamon let it be known to placate Isolde.  Then again, The Calling is a bit iffy on what Maric means that he wants his son to be free of his legacy.  They only say he'll be told he had a human mother who died, nothing about manufacturing a story about who the father was.  So maybe Alistair was told he was Maric's from the beginning, but that he'd never inherit etc.

And that his father wanted nothing to do with him. 

I'll be over in the corner, curled up...

Modifié par Addai67, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Kryyptehk]

Re:Holes, I could believe that darkspawn can dig tunnels without anyone being the wiser. I mean, we are talking about people who CONSTANTLY dig tunnels to get to the Old Gods. Though considering the fact that there are tombs under the Tower, maybe they just went in and pushed a hole through. Hell, the tunnels lead right to the battlefield...

[rak72]

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

Edit: correction - maybe lied to about who his mother was.

They never really say.  The theory we've bandied about here is that either Isolde blabbed it, or Eamon let it be known to placate Isolde.  Then again, The Calling is a bit iffy on what Maric means that he wants his son to be free of his legacy.  They only say he'll be told he had a human mother who died, nothing about manufacturing a story about who the father was.  So maybe Alistair was told he was Maric's from the beginning, but that he'd never inherit etc.

And that his father wanted nothing to do with him. 

I'll be over in the corner, curled up...

Did Alistair ever say that he didn't know Maric personally? I haven't played the game in a while (I'm just beginning again) so I don't remember him saying anything like that. If Cailan was interested in him, maybe their father was as well, but raising him at an arm's length so that Rowan wouldn't find out.

[Monica21]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Re:Holes, I could believe that darkspawn can dig tunnels without anyone being the wiser. I mean, we are talking about people who CONSTANTLY dig tunnels to get to the Old Gods. Though considering the fact that there are tombs under the Tower, maybe they just went in and pushed a hole through. Hell, the tunnels lead right to the battlefield...

The tunnels are man-made though. The map is the same map used for the ruins in the Dalish origin. And according to Gaider, the hole was made by the ogre, although how he managed to get to the top of the tower is beyond me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The darkspawn are known to erupt from the earth (via Ogres, hence one in the tower), they don't need a hole.

[Sandtigress]

tuppence95 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Oh, and tuppence, you did get to see my little take on Ferelden's end if the Grey Wardens were killed, right?

Nooooo!!  I knew you had written it, and I have you in my favorites.  I'm so far behind with my fanfic now ... ever since I made a promise to myself that I would only read it while on the exercise bike!   I'll make sure I read that next.  :happy:

lol It won't take you long...it's like 500 words?  Really really short.  A true drabble (looks around for Surely).  You don't actually get to see the look on Loghain's face...but I like to think it adds to what you see in your imagination!

ETA:

You guys are totally right about the lyrium addiction being a secret.  So yeah, Maric would only have had the dangerous occupation thing to worry about, probably.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Kryyptehk]

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

Where do you strung out templars? I can only remember the one who was held prisoner under Howe's estate.

[inclemency]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

Edit: correction - maybe lied to about who his mother was.

They never really say.  The theory we've bandied about here is that either Isolde blabbed it, or Eamon let it be known to placate Isolde.  Then again, The Calling is a bit iffy on what Maric means that he wants his son to be free of his legacy.  They only say he'll be told he had a human mother who died, nothing about manufacturing a story about who the father was.  So maybe Alistair was told he was Maric's from the beginning, but that he'd never inherit etc.

And that his father wanted nothing to do with him. 

I'll be over in the corner, curled up...

Did Alistair ever say that he didn't know Maric personally? I haven't played the game in a while (I'm just beginning again) so I don't remember him saying anything like that. If Cailan was interested in him, maybe their father was as well, but raising him at an arm's length so that Rowan wouldn't find out.

All I remember him saying is that he spoke to Cailan once (just a word or two), when he and Marric came to redcliffe, and Cailan ran to the Armoury saying 'Oooo, Swords'

Modifié par inclemency, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[tuppence95]

Monica21 wrote...
The pictures don't say anything about a hole, just tunnels. We know the tunnels are there because there's an exit under the Tower onto the battlefield. Why would Loghain leave his troops trapped in a tower with darkspawn?

Ack, quotes are getting too long.

You are right.  I went back and looked.  The guard just says they discovered lower chambers and he didn't see anything like that when he was in there.  I think that whole "Loghain's men are up to something..." and Alistair's comment about how could the darkspawn know our plan are just red herrings that Gaider threw in there to get us thinking conspiracy theories.  

[Kryyptehk]

Monica21 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Re:Holes, I could believe that darkspawn can dig tunnels without anyone being the wiser. I mean, we are talking about people who CONSTANTLY dig tunnels to get to the Old Gods. Though considering the fact that there are tombs under the Tower, maybe they just went in and pushed a hole through. Hell, the tunnels lead right to the battlefield...

The tunnels are man-made though. The map is the same map used for the ruins in the Dalish origin. And according to Gaider, the hole was made by the ogre, although how he managed to get to the top of the tower is beyond me.

There are other holes though, in the walls, which could be attributed to the darkspawn, though there really wouldn't be much reason considering they could just walk through and get their ogre friend to burst through.

That'd be a hell of a surprise. And still doesn't explain the ogre at the top of the tower.

[rak72]

Kryyptehk wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

Where do you strung out templars? I can only remember the one who was held prisoner under Howe's estate.

One of the Templars in front of the Chantry in Denirum has his mind completly fried.

[Addai]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Did Alistair ever say that he didn't know Maric personally? I haven't played the game in a while (I'm just beginning again) so I don't remember him saying anything like that. If Cailan was interested in him, maybe their father was as well, but raising him at an arm's length so that Rowan wouldn't find out.

Yes, he says it in his acceptance speech after the LM.  "I never knew my father, but from what people say of him..."

:crying:

[Kryyptehk]

inclemency wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

Edit: correction - maybe lied to about who his mother was.

They never really say.  The theory we've bandied about here is that either Isolde blabbed it, or Eamon let it be known to placate Isolde.  Then again, The Calling is a bit iffy on what Maric means that he wants his son to be free of his legacy.  They only say he'll be told he had a human mother who died, nothing about manufacturing a story about who the father was.  So maybe Alistair was told he was Maric's from the beginning, but that he'd never inherit etc.

And that his father wanted nothing to do with him. 

I'll be over in the corner, curled up...

Did Alistair ever say that he didn't know Maric personally? I haven't played the game in a while (I'm just beginning again) so I don't remember him saying anything like that. If Cailan was interested in him, maybe their father was as well, but raising him at an arm's length so that Rowan wouldn't find out.

All I remember him saying is that he spoke to Cailan once (just a word or two), when he and Marric came to redcliffe, and Cailan ran to the Armoury saying 'Oooo, Swords'

I could believe that Maric tried to keep Cailan away so that he would slip the existence of Alistair to Rowan. Though why would they be introduced if that were the case?

[LadyDamodred]

inclemency wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

One thing I always wondered about...how/why does Alistair know he is Maric's son? He was always told he had no claim to the throne, lied to about who his mother was, etc... Wouldn't it have been easier to lie to him about who his father was as well?

Edit: correction - maybe lied to about who his mother was.

They never really say.  The theory we've bandied about here is that either Isolde blabbed it, or Eamon let it be known to placate Isolde.  Then again, The Calling is a bit iffy on what Maric means that he wants his son to be free of his legacy.  They only say he'll be told he had a human mother who died, nothing about manufacturing a story about who the father was.  So maybe Alistair was told he was Maric's from the beginning, but that he'd never inherit etc.

And that his father wanted nothing to do with him. 

I'll be over in the corner, curled up...

Did Alistair ever say that he didn't know Maric personally? I haven't played the game in a while (I'm just beginning again) so I don't remember him saying anything like that. If Cailan was interested in him, maybe their father was as well, but raising him at an arm's length so that Rowan wouldn't find out.

All I remember him saying is that he spoke to Cailan once (just a word or two), when he and Marric came to redcliffe, and Cailan ran to the Armoury saying 'Oooo, Swords'

Yeah, I took that to mean Alistair never really had any direct contact with Maric, besides seeing him on that one trip.  I'd like to think the guilt ate away at Maric.

Oh, what do you know....

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[tuppence95]

Kryyptehk wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

Where do you strung out templars? I can only remember the one who was held prisoner under Howe's estate.

There's one in front of the chantry in Denerim, I think.

[Addai]

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

It might not be general knowledge- aging templars are whisked off to Val Royeaux, I believe, the Denerim guy being an exception- but surely the king would have.  That's why the Chantry regulated the lyrium trade.

[Kryyptehk]

tuppence95 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

Where do you strung out templars? I can only remember the one who was held prisoner under Howe's estate.

There's one in front of the chantry in Denerim, I think.

Yeah, but wasn't that guy old? It'd be easy to explain his dementia away by saying it is old age.

[rak72]

Re lyrium 2 : The mages also know the Templars need Lyrium (Godwin), so if Maric did ANY of his due diligence, he would have found out.

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

It might not be general knowledge- aging templars are whisked off to Val Royeaux, I believe, the Denerim guy being an exception- but surely the king would have.  That's why the Chantry regulated the lyrium trade.

I don't think that the king would necessarily know...The templar in Awakening is willing to go against the King's wishes (and potentially kill his wife!) just to get one apostate. It seems like the King's rule does not extend to the Chantry.

[tuppence95]

Kryyptehk wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Re lyrium addiction - you see strung out templars around Fereldan, so people must know. I imagine that the king would be privy to this, especialy if he is researching his son becoming a templar.

Where do you strung out templars? I can only remember the one who was held prisoner under Howe's estate.

There's one in front of the chantry in Denerim, I think.

Yeah, but wasn't that guy old? It'd be easy to explain his dementia away by saying it is old age.

Yeah, I think he was pretty old.  I can't remember if an explanation was given about his behavior. 

[Sandtigress]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I could believe that Maric tried to keep Cailan away so that he would slip the existence of Alistair to Rowan. Though why would they be introduced if that were the case?

Rowan died when Cailan was really young (three, maybe?)...definitely before Alistair was born if Alistair is Fiona's son, since Rowan was dead two years before Fiona came into the picture.  This is one of the reasons I think that Loghain's "knowledge" of Alistair is conjecture - he says Alistair was kept secret because of Rowan, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  I think Loghain thinks that if Alistair had been born after Rowan, Maric would have just acknowledged him - surely royal bastards aren't that uncommon and the Queen was already dead and Cailan first born.  Not a huge problem. 

Since he knew that Maric had hesitations about acknowledging him, Loghain attempted to put two and two together and came up with him being an older bastard who thus would threaten both Rowan and Cailan. Because Loghain would have never come up with Alistair being the son of an elven Orlesian Grey Warden mage.   Ever.

P.S.  Someone asked DG today if we would ever meet Maric and Fiona's son.  DG's answer was *eyebrow* "Maybe you already have?"  If he could have used , I'm sure he would have.

[Sarah1281]

I could believe that Maric tried to keep Cailan away so that he would slip the existence of Alistair to Rowan. Though why would they be introduced if that were the case?

You're assuming that Rowan was alive once Alistair was born. Even if she was, however, she died when Cailan was young so that's a poor excuse.