If you harden Alistair, he actually gets used to the idea of being king and more importantly does not want Anora to have the throne. So I don't think there is any way to avoid disapproval.
*possibly maybe spoiler*
I have never done it this way but, and I may be wrong but I don't think the landsmeet goes too well for Alistair, if he is hardened and not made king.
The Alistair Gush Thread: *Squee*
Débuté par
SurelyForth
, août 10 2010 01:57
Retour en haut
#36977
Posté 17 avril 2013 - 12:29
theskymoves
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Hardened!Alistair is more amenable to being king, and less content with the idea of leaving Anora in power. If you don't make him king, he's fine with that, too. (A little grumble-y, but fine.) Any approval losses are pretty easy to regain, even late in the game and without gift spamming.
***spoilery spoilers***
If you don't want him to be king, do not let him duel Loghain. Alistair will execute Loghain, and accept the crown, (Unless the Warden is a Human Noble. It gets more complicated then...) Things only go very very badly for Hardened!Alistair if you try to leave him a Warden and recruit Loghain, too. (Very very badly...)
***spoilery spoilers***
If you don't want him to be king, do not let him duel Loghain. Alistair will execute Loghain, and accept the crown, (Unless the Warden is a Human Noble. It gets more complicated then...) Things only go very very badly for Hardened!Alistair if you try to leave him a Warden and recruit Loghain, too. (Very very badly...)
Modifié par theskymoves, 17 avril 2013 - 12:31 .
#36978
Posté 17 avril 2013 - 10:40
Penarddun
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Thanks. 
I re-listened to his dialogue and it seems like a reasonable "initial" reaction to Anora as Queen, especially how much he dislikes Loghain. But it seems like he doesn't particularly want to be King (even hardened) if there was any other option.
So -10 seems a bit high considering he only wants to be King because Anora is the other option, but not too hard to make up with Duncan's shield, and one more gift.
Is there any way to unharden him using the console? Or would that break the game? Just curious... I'm thinking ahead to importing my game for DA2 and DA3. Or does his hardened/unhardened state not effect his "stays a Warden" DA2 cameo? I assume it might affect his King cameo or future rumors, etc. But probably not if he stays a Warden because a hardened vs unhardened Warden probably wouldn't have that much of a difference storywise, unlike the King where his rule would take on more widespread differences... hmmm.
Then again, maybe DA3 won't even mention Alistair as Warden and just stick with what seems like their official King ending (that would be annoying though...
I think the Warden ending really is the best, hardened or no). It never made sense to make any Grey Warden a king. I can see Alistair (hardened especially) becoming like Duncan as the years go by and taking on a more leadership role within the GW. Which seems like something he always wanted and would be more satisfying overall.
I re-listened to his dialogue and it seems like a reasonable "initial" reaction to Anora as Queen, especially how much he dislikes Loghain. But it seems like he doesn't particularly want to be King (even hardened) if there was any other option.
So -10 seems a bit high considering he only wants to be King because Anora is the other option, but not too hard to make up with Duncan's shield, and one more gift.
Is there any way to unharden him using the console? Or would that break the game? Just curious... I'm thinking ahead to importing my game for DA2 and DA3. Or does his hardened/unhardened state not effect his "stays a Warden" DA2 cameo? I assume it might affect his King cameo or future rumors, etc. But probably not if he stays a Warden because a hardened vs unhardened Warden probably wouldn't have that much of a difference storywise, unlike the King where his rule would take on more widespread differences... hmmm.
Then again, maybe DA3 won't even mention Alistair as Warden and just stick with what seems like their official King ending (that would be annoying though...
I think the Warden ending really is the best, hardened or no). It never made sense to make any Grey Warden a king. I can see Alistair (hardened especially) becoming like Duncan as the years go by and taking on a more leadership role within the GW. Which seems like something he always wanted and would be more satisfying overall.
#36979
Posté 18 avril 2013 - 12:07
theskymoves
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I don't think his hardened/unhardened state affect the DA2 cameos at all, same as it doesn't seem to matter whether he's hardened or not in DAA.
There must be a console code to flip the hardened flag, though I don't see it on the Wiki. There's a tome that changes the flag in MetaGame Items works, but I've never used it when playing, just for testing mods.
There must be a console code to flip the hardened flag, though I don't see it on the Wiki. There's a tome that changes the flag in MetaGame Items works, but I've never used it when playing, just for testing mods.
#36980
Posté 18 avril 2013 - 05:45
Penarddun
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Thanks. The tome item in there works perfectly. I went through all his dialogue choices when I question him in the Arl's estate... and I am so torn. Assuming this doesn't bug the game if I use it from this save forward, I really don't know which way to go. I've gone back and forth on the hardening issue in my mind for all my playthroughs (after the first one, where I didn't know about it).
Using the un-modded dialogue in the game, I would never harden him, because that line just wouldn't be said by most of my Wardens, without metagaming. But whether he is happier hardened or not, or has a better life, outlook, etc. I can't decide.
He sounds so happy when unhardened and he talks about being a Warden, but then again unhardened he also doesn't always stand up for himself. Hardened he is adamant about keeping the relationship, when asked "where is this going?" He actually says, "there's always a way." which really surprised me, since the unhardened convo is so much doom and gloom from his perspective.
I can see where hardening him would be the right choice if he is going to be made solo ruler, or for the Wardens who convince him to marry Anora, but for all other end game decisions, I can't decide if hardening is the best choice. Hardening does seem to make his character more interesting from a storyline perspective, since that type of a change adds complexity and a bit of an edge. But to really decide I would have to compare all his hardened and unhardened dialogue counterparts and see which outlook I thought was best, overall.
Using the un-modded dialogue in the game, I would never harden him, because that line just wouldn't be said by most of my Wardens, without metagaming. But whether he is happier hardened or not, or has a better life, outlook, etc. I can't decide.
He sounds so happy when unhardened and he talks about being a Warden, but then again unhardened he also doesn't always stand up for himself. Hardened he is adamant about keeping the relationship, when asked "where is this going?" He actually says, "there's always a way." which really surprised me, since the unhardened convo is so much doom and gloom from his perspective.
I can see where hardening him would be the right choice if he is going to be made solo ruler, or for the Wardens who convince him to marry Anora, but for all other end game decisions, I can't decide if hardening is the best choice. Hardening does seem to make his character more interesting from a storyline perspective, since that type of a change adds complexity and a bit of an edge. But to really decide I would have to compare all his hardened and unhardened dialogue counterparts and see which outlook I thought was best, overall.
#36981
Posté 18 avril 2013 - 08:05
wiccame
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For me, I only harden him if I want to make him king, to just give him that little bit of confidence that he needs, I never let him marry Anora, he's mine
Otherwise I keep him unhardened, as I always feel he would be conflicted otherwise. Also speaking to him as unhardened after you talk to Anora...he really wants to stay a grey warden and tells you how much that means to him and why being king doesn't suit him.
If you romance him, then hardening him as a solo ruler, providing you have high coercion means you can keep the relationship going.
Otherwise I keep him unhardened, as I always feel he would be conflicted otherwise. Also speaking to him as unhardened after you talk to Anora...he really wants to stay a grey warden and tells you how much that means to him and why being king doesn't suit him.
If you romance him, then hardening him as a solo ruler, providing you have high coercion means you can keep the relationship going.
#36982
Posté 19 avril 2013 - 05:30
Yankee23
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Penarddun wrote...
I can see where hardening him would be the right choice if he is going to be made solo ruler, or for the Wardens who convince him to marry Anora, but for all other end game decisions
I think hardened Alistair is best if he's going to be king, even if married to the HNF. An unhardened king Alistair always appears to leave the ruling to someone else. Hardened he steps up and makes an effort.
Personally, I always harden him king or not. I think in the long run it serves him better.
And hi!
I haven't poked my head in here in a while!
Modifié par Yankee23, 19 avril 2013 - 05:31 .
#36983
Posté 19 avril 2013 - 05:41
theskymoves
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I wrote a short essay on the topic of hardening or not last year, and I'll copy/paste some of it here:
I prefer the terminology ‘changed’ rather than ‘hardened’; both appear in the toolset and seem to be interchangable. (That the ‘change’ is in his motivation, from ’Good’, to ‘Glory’, is a whole ‘nother discussion.) I do think ‘changing’ Alistair is the better option, although for roleplay reasons, I don’t always follow my own good advice. (Wardens who did the right thing: Nariel Surana, Kallian Tabris, Esme Amell, Moira Cousland. Naughty Wardens: Fiona Cousland, and Laerwen Mahariel.)
Most of my Wardens (and meta-me) understand that Alistair is a man who needs to face reality, not a boy, to be coddled and sheltered. They think it’s really important for Alistair to grasp that the world - their world - is a harsh, scary place, filled with not only with obvious monsters, but also with bitter, opportunistic ‘half-sisters’; power-grasping, machinating foster fathers; and strangers withcandy miniature golem dolls. And they worry that, if the Warden should die (or for other reasons, no longer be his constant companion), Alistair will be ill-equipped to deal with that grim, ugly world, if he sees it through rose-coloured glasses. (Not that they even have rose-coloured glasses in Ferelden, but I digress…)
So we change Alistair, we harden him, not so he’ll engage in a threesome or cheat on his presumptive wife, but for him. For his own good. To make him stronger, and less vulnerable. And to prepare him for a Warden-less future, if need be.
Do I like the mechanism for changing Alistair? No. The in-game dialogue is overly harsh, and unfeeling, and far too abrupt, for such a life-altering event. It is especially discomforting to have that discussion with a romanced Alistair. And it’s certainly not how (or where) I headcanon those conversations occurring, for any of my Wardens.
When I have left Alistair all squishy and naïve, it was a reflection of the Warden’s needs rather than his: Fiona Cousland was an ambition-crazed monster, who used unhardened Alistair as a tool. And Laerwen Mahariel thought she was doing the right thing, telling Alistair not to think for himself, and to rely on her judgement. Poor Alistair was forced to reap the crop of over-protectiveness that headstrong and doomed Tamlen sowed in her.
And finally, the one GOOD reason I can think of for not ‘changing’ Alistair is that the dialogue involved offers the only opportunity for him to tell the Warden he loves her, prior to sex between them. (Not that anyone asked, but Maker, that really bothers me.)
I prefer the terminology ‘changed’ rather than ‘hardened’; both appear in the toolset and seem to be interchangable. (That the ‘change’ is in his motivation, from ’Good’, to ‘Glory’, is a whole ‘nother discussion.) I do think ‘changing’ Alistair is the better option, although for roleplay reasons, I don’t always follow my own good advice. (Wardens who did the right thing: Nariel Surana, Kallian Tabris, Esme Amell, Moira Cousland. Naughty Wardens: Fiona Cousland, and Laerwen Mahariel.)
Most of my Wardens (and meta-me) understand that Alistair is a man who needs to face reality, not a boy, to be coddled and sheltered. They think it’s really important for Alistair to grasp that the world - their world - is a harsh, scary place, filled with not only with obvious monsters, but also with bitter, opportunistic ‘half-sisters’; power-grasping, machinating foster fathers; and strangers with
So we change Alistair, we harden him, not so he’ll engage in a threesome or cheat on his presumptive wife, but for him. For his own good. To make him stronger, and less vulnerable. And to prepare him for a Warden-less future, if need be.
Do I like the mechanism for changing Alistair? No. The in-game dialogue is overly harsh, and unfeeling, and far too abrupt, for such a life-altering event. It is especially discomforting to have that discussion with a romanced Alistair. And it’s certainly not how (or where) I headcanon those conversations occurring, for any of my Wardens.
When I have left Alistair all squishy and naïve, it was a reflection of the Warden’s needs rather than his: Fiona Cousland was an ambition-crazed monster, who used unhardened Alistair as a tool. And Laerwen Mahariel thought she was doing the right thing, telling Alistair not to think for himself, and to rely on her judgement. Poor Alistair was forced to reap the crop of over-protectiveness that headstrong and doomed Tamlen sowed in her.
And finally, the one GOOD reason I can think of for not ‘changing’ Alistair is that the dialogue involved offers the only opportunity for him to tell the Warden he loves her, prior to sex between them. (Not that anyone asked, but Maker, that really bothers me.)
Modifié par theskymoves, 19 avril 2013 - 05:43 .
#36984
Posté 19 avril 2013 - 07:52
cJohnOne
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Needless to say, I like unharderned Alistair just fine. I don't want to change him.
If I was really listening to Alistair I wouldn't make him king and leave him a Grey Warden.
But right now I don't care what Alistair wants I want to make him King. I can't do romances anyways so I just get a little disaproval, right?
If I was really listening to Alistair I wouldn't make him king and leave him a Grey Warden.
But right now I don't care what Alistair wants I want to make him King. I can't do romances anyways so I just get a little disaproval, right?
#36985
Posté 19 avril 2013 - 11:02
Penarddun
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Yankee23 wrote...
I think hardened Alistair is best if he's going to be king, even if married to the HNF. An unhardened king Alistair always appears to leave the ruling to someone else. Hardened he steps up and makes an effort.
Personally, I always harden him king or not. I think in the long run it serves him better.
And hi!
Hello! :happy:
Yeah, I have been in the hardening or 'changing' camp for a long time, pretty much since I started playing this 2 years ago, and so on my second playthrough and beyond (on the console), I always hardened him.
[wall of text coming up, sorry!]
@tsm - That's a great essay. I agree with everything you excerpted. That's been my own logic when I played. It's his motivation that changes. Yes he seems more grounded and a bit jaded when it comes to dealing with the world, but that's just a side effect of a change in motivation. Couldn't theoretically he develop confidence and a more realistic view of people and the world without changing his internal motivation? Something about hardening him makes some of his dialogue lines not just sound confident, but arrogant and a bit selfish.
And doesn't it seem in DA2 that King Alistair seemed a bit 'soft,' compared to the Grey Warden Alistair cameo, where he seems very confident, serious and a bit like Duncan?
When I played the HNF, it made sense for her to want to be Queen, because she was a high ranking noble, and if I rp-ed her as a smart, politically minded person, she would indeed say things to Alistair that might harden him, but even when I had her make Alistair king with her, it felt like I was pulling the strings because that is what my Warden wanted not really what Alistair wanted.
It's not even just 'changing' him that is in debate in my mind, but whether he should be king at all. It's never Alistair's choice to become King, he doesn't want it. True, when 'hardened' he makes the best of it and becomes successful and finds the positive aspects of it. And there is no doubt that he makes a good king when hardened. But chioce wise, Arl Eamon tells Alistair it's his responsibility to be king now. It's something he's pushed into. The only choice Alistair ever made himself was joining the Grey Wardens. And if you spare Loghain, Alistair chooses to leave the Grey Wardens.
Assuming he wasn't 'changed' by the Warden at that moment in time, it would only make sense that as the years progressed, if he goes off and joins another Grey Warden group after the blight, as a person he would grow and change more gradually over the years. So say 10 years after the blight, he may develop a personality that is 'hardened' in some way. Like Duncan. But we only get to see Alistair's life for the few months/ years the game takes place. The change is so sudden and it seems like the only way that could happen is if someone he respects pretty much emotionally slaps him. Which is what the original dialogue was like so that makes sense.
Also, I always wondered.... if Alistair becomes King, and doesn't do any Warden activities for the next 25 years... he'll be in his 50s and gets the calling. He will be older, not in as good shape, and completely unused to fighting darkspawn... and then he has to go back into the deep roads.
How does that work? Is there any other option for Grey Wardens that get the calling? Do they eventually just go crazy and die if they don't go to the deep roads first?
Modifié par Penarddun, 19 avril 2013 - 11:05 .
#36986
Posté 22 avril 2013 - 11:09
Melca36
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http://i1183.photobu...b7.jpg:original
http://i1183.photobu...98.jpg:original
http://i1183.photobu...6b.jpg:original
http://i1183.photobu...98.jpg:original
http://i1183.photobu...6b.jpg:original
Modifié par Melca36, 23 avril 2013 - 12:48 .
#36987
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 12:53
Melca36
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#36988
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 10:45
sylvanaerie
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@Pennardan. Apparently wardens who don't die during their Calling apparently just go crazy and don't die, as shown in DA2. Larius has to be pushing what, 60-70? He was a warden commander before (PC) Hawke was born. I assumed the PC was in his/her early 20s. I assume a warden commander has some experience on other wardens (maybe at least a decade's worth). So he'd have been in his 40s maybe at that time. If he went to his Calling a few years after the incident with Malcolm Hawke, he'd still be kicking (if looney toons) in his 60s, maybe even 70s, though he doesn't look it.
Of course, some of the wardens recognize him, which implies it hasn't been too long since he went to his Calling, but still, he's not dead. Crazy and eaten up with the taint, but not dead. I'm curious to see what the PTB @ Bioware would have to say on the subject. Does the taint eventually turn them? Humans to Hurlocks, Elves to Shrieks, Dwarves to Genlocks and Kossith to Ogres? And do females eventually turn into brood mothers (thanks for that one, Duncan!).
I imagine King Alistair, given no other option, would just take poison quietly to end it before he got too bad. I can't see him wanting to distress those who care about him that he's leaving behind, and at least they would have a body to mourn and give closure too. A sad end for a warden, indeed.
Of course, some of the wardens recognize him, which implies it hasn't been too long since he went to his Calling, but still, he's not dead. Crazy and eaten up with the taint, but not dead. I'm curious to see what the PTB @ Bioware would have to say on the subject. Does the taint eventually turn them? Humans to Hurlocks, Elves to Shrieks, Dwarves to Genlocks and Kossith to Ogres? And do females eventually turn into brood mothers (thanks for that one, Duncan!).
I imagine King Alistair, given no other option, would just take poison quietly to end it before he got too bad. I can't see him wanting to distress those who care about him that he's leaving behind, and at least they would have a body to mourn and give closure too. A sad end for a warden, indeed.
Modifié par sylvanaerie, 23 avril 2013 - 10:52 .
#36989
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 06:51
Penarddun
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sylvanaerie wrote...
@Pennardan. Apparently wardens who don't die during their Calling apparently just go crazy and don't die, as shown in DA2. Larius has to be pushing what, 60-70? He was a warden commander before (PC) Hawke was born. I assumed the PC was in his/her early 20s. I assume a warden commander has some experience on other wardens (maybe at least a decade's worth). So he'd have been in his 40s maybe at that time. If he went to his Calling a few years after the incident with Malcolm Hawke, he'd still be kicking (if looney toons) in his 60s, maybe even 70s, though he doesn't look it.
Of course, some of the wardens recognize him, which implies it hasn't been too long since he went to his Calling, but still, he's not dead. Crazy and eaten up with the taint, but not dead. I'm curious to see what the PTB @ Bioware would have to say on the subject. Does the taint eventually turn them? Humans to Hurlocks, Elves to Shrieks, Dwarves to Genlocks and Kossith to Ogres? And do females eventually turn into brood mothers (thanks for that one, Duncan!).
I imagine King Alistair, given no other option, would just take poison quietly to end it before he got too bad. I can't see him wanting to distress those who care about him that he's leaving behind, and at least they would have a body to mourn and give closure too. A sad end for a warden, indeed.
Hmm, interesting. I didn't realize that. I only played DA2 once and must have missed the Larius part or forgot about it. So if Larius is still alive (albeit a bit crazy) and hasn't turned into a darkspawn, then maybe Wardens don't turn into darkspawn? That would be great. I never liked the idea of any of my female Wardens becoming... that.
Yeah, an insane king is not such a great thing.
I remember the epilogue from Awakening mentioning that Alistair and the Warden disappeared if he was made solo king with her as a mistress, or if they both remained Wardens (I always wondered why that wasn't mentioned if they rule jointly... maybe an oversight in the epilogue?). I guess we'll have to find out where they actually went possibly in DA3, but it would be nice if that answered some of these questions about what happens if a Grey Warden doesn't die during their calling. And what the possible outcomes are. Also as a male Warden who follow Morrigan... does that alter his fate when it comes to the calling and such?
Modifié par Penarddun, 23 avril 2013 - 06:52 .
#36990
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 07:19
thats1evildude
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The fate of a Warden who fails to die during his Calling is not a pretty one.
#36991
Posté 25 avril 2013 - 09:56
Xetykins
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thats1evildude wrote...
The fate of a Warden who fails to die during his Calling is not a pretty one.
At least he maintained his side burns. I know Ali will always maintain his hair when this comes and come what may.
#36992
Posté 25 avril 2013 - 11:24
cJohnOne
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I recieved my World of Thedas book today. I haven't read it yet but Alistair isn't in the Glossary.
It's a large and beautiful book. I'm happy I got it.
It's a large and beautiful book. I'm happy I got it.
#36993
Posté 26 avril 2013 - 12:46
sylvanaerie
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@Pennardun. Larius is featured in the DLC for DA2 called "Legacy" which gives a lot of background on the Hawke family and more clues about the origins of the Darkspawn as well. And includes a bit of backstory on the origins of Varric's family as well.
Legacy was my favorite DLC, though I really like the Shale one as well.
Legacy was my favorite DLC, though I really like the Shale one as well.
Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 avril 2013 - 12:49 .
#36994
Posté 30 avril 2013 - 07:01
Xetykins
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Does anyone know if you can download Origins digital ultimate edition off Origins for free? I've got the cd pack and I've registered it. But since I travel a lot and I don't really want to cart the disk with me on my laptop all the time just in case.
#36995
Posté 30 avril 2013 - 10:54
theskymoves
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Xetykins wrote...
Does anyone know if you can download Origins digital ultimate edition off Origins for free? I've got the cd pack and I've registered it. But since I travel a lot and I don't really want to cart the disk with me on my laptop all the time just in case.
That was the case at one time, though it is some time since I went through whatever the process is to link my "hard copy" to my Origin account. (See this info from the Origin Redemption FAQ.)
#36996
Posté 01 mai 2013 - 04:11
Cosmochyck
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Ok so I have been absent from this thread and the BSN for months (maybe years??), but I have started a new DA playthrough, and I had forgotten just how squee-worthy Alistair is! Can he get ANY sweeter? I had forgotten how well written all the dialogue was.
Thanks for letting me gush!
Thanks for letting me gush!
#36997
Posté 01 mai 2013 - 05:59
coldwetn0se
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*Hands Cosmo a hanky to wipe the drool.* XD
Don't be such a stranger, Cosmo!
Don't be such a stranger, Cosmo!
#36998
Posté 03 mai 2013 - 03:45
cJohnOne
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What do you think of making Alistair a Dual Wielding Warrior? For my playstyle I don't have him doing shield wall or stuff like that so DW Warrior is probably a step up. Which is better?
#36999
Posté 03 mai 2013 - 04:28
theskymoves
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cJohnOne wrote...
What do you think of making Alistair a Dual Wielding Warrior? For my playstyle I don't have him doing shield wall or stuff like that so DW Warrior is probably a step up. Which is better?
I specced Alistair as a high dexterity dual wielder off tank for my Cousland S+S Warrior, and he was spectacular in that role, so much so that I left Zevran in camp and forgot he was there. (Alistair flying through the air, deathblowing the Broodmother, and finishing with a mid-air somersault will forever be one of my most cherished Dragon Age moments.
)I probably would not be as happy with Alistair dual wielding as my main tank, though. The DW talents want dexterity, which means skimping on his strength, which means lighter armour, which means he's squishier and will die. It also means he won't draw threat, which means he's not doing what a tank is supposed to do.
#37000
Posté 03 mai 2013 - 09:14
Penarddun
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I have a rather odd situation I came across just now after speaking with Riordan. I left the room, and both Alistair and Morrigan were in my party (I'm assuming this has something to do with me having the Dark Ritual mod installed). Unfortunately the cutscene from that mod didn't play. And when I got to Denerim, Alistair and Morrigan were again in my party when its supposed to be just the Warden for that first battle. Has anyone come across this?
Also, I didn't really notice any changes in Morrigan's dialogue at all even though I have MRP pack installed. Will a +100 friendly not notice that (do you need to be in a romantic relationship to see the changes from those mods?)
It was really nice to finally hear the correct dialogue with Eamon though.
Also, I didn't really notice any changes in Morrigan's dialogue at all even though I have MRP pack installed. Will a +100 friendly not notice that (do you need to be in a romantic relationship to see the changes from those mods?)
It was really nice to finally hear the correct dialogue with Eamon though.
Modifié par Penarddun, 03 mai 2013 - 09:14 .
