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[nos_astra]

yukidama wrote...
I need some advice. I am going for an uber-dramatic playthrough. A character who is romancing Alistair will have him exiled (dunno why yet).

Question is: do you think exiling a hardened Alistair is crueler than an unhardened Alistair, or the opposite?

I expect a hardened Alistair might be able to move on at some point, despite the one line about the man at the Starkhaven tavern. In my canon playthough he is hardened and exiled, but I never leave Alistair unhardened, anyway.

Why, oh why must this post be top? I don't have any screenshots. :-(

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[errant_knight]

yukidama wrote...

I need some advice. I am going for an uber-dramatic playthrough. A character who is romancing Alistair will have him exiled (dunno why yet).

Question is: do you think exiling a hardened Alistair is crueler than an unhardened Alistair, or the opposite?

Well, I think both are cruel. Let me break it down a little.

Unhardened Alistair might be a little more crushed that someone he loved could do that to him, but hardened Alistair has more to lose, and I suspect that while he doesn't say as much about it (from what I'm told), he'd be no less crushed by a loved one's betrayal, even if he might be a little less surprised.

I also agree that leaving Alistair unhardened is intrinsically somewhat cruel in its own right, even under the best of circumstances. It means that Alistair remains unconfident and unwilling to stand up for himself. It leaves him open to manipulation. It makes him dependant on the warden to look out for him. In the case of a PC siding with Anora, it's even worse. He's dependent on a person who throws him to the wolves when he trusted them implicitly. One can only assume that his experience at landsmeet hardens him, but not in terms of a friend/lover convincing him to stand up for himself, but in the ugliest way possible.

Hardened Alistair loses more. He isn't just betrayed by the person who means most to him in the world--the first true friend he's ever had (or so he thought), and if female, the only woman he's ever loved, but also loses a duty that he's come to accept as one that he's the best choice to fulfill. He's come to feel a responsibility for the people of Ferelden. He's now tied to the country in a way that unhardened Alistair is not, and he is forced out of it. He has to watch Anora's rule from afar, knowing that each decision she makes that he disagrees with is one that he could have prevented. He likely also questions the abilities that he has come to believe he has, and his new found self confidence, at least for a while. Still, he has more personal strength to support him.

Which is more cruel? Well, both are beyond awful, but I think that it's crueler to hardened Alistair. A friend can be replaced, given time. One can fall in love again. A kingdom, and it's people, though? That can never be replaced. One has to hope that both hardened and unhardened Alistair recover, and find something to make their lives meaningful, because Alistair needs that--a duty, a cause, something to live for, but unhardened Alistair can get back what was lost in a way that hardened Alistair can't. He will always have lost Ferelden.

Of course all this presumes that you're playing a character that Alistair likes/loves and cares for. If he hates you, hardened or unhardened, the whole experience is one bitter disappointment after another, culminating in betrayal. Unhardened Alistair will be more shocked, but both will be angry and bitter. The part about hardened Alistair losing more still holds true. I would say that in the exiled scenario, letting him see that the PC is someone who he shouldn't trust, or call friend, is probably the least cruel way to go, in that it removes heartbreak from the scenario.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Zjarcal]

@errant_knight:

Very nice analysis!

I hadn't thought about it that way to be honest. If we were to quickly summarize it we could describe it as, unhardened Alistiar is crushed but doesn't realize what he lost that day, while hardened Alistair is crushed and will spent the rest of his days ruing the fact that the chance to serve Ferelden was taken away from him.

Quick question. Since I have never actually made Alistair king nor have I ever hardened him, when exactly does hardened Alistair express a desire to be king? I've seen the dialogue in the toolset when hardened talks about how he doesn't want Anora to be queen, but the dialogue seems more focused on him hating Anora's guts, not so much on wanting to be king himself. Does he ever actually say that he wants to be king? Or at least, is he less pissed off at the player if they make him king?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[CalJones]

Yes, it's certainly a lot easier to exile or execute him if you're playing an Alistair hate game. My HNM was quite friendly with him and Alistair's hurt speech is pretty painful to hear.

But, having said that, Alistair is the one who decides to leave the wardens if you show mercy to Loghain, so he is not entirely blameless in the whole scenario.

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

Yes, it's certainly a lot easier to exile or execute him if you're playing an Alistair hate game. My HNM was quite friendly with him and Alistair's hurt speech is pretty painful to hear.
But, having said that, Alistair is the one who decides to leave the wardens if you show mercy to Loghain, so he is not entirely blameless in the whole scenario.

Indeed. He could've chosen to stay and fight alongside Eamon. I can understand him not wanting to be around Loghain but abandoning everything just like that was hardly a rational decision. So yes, he shares plenty of the blame for whatever happens to him later.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

@errant_knight:

Very nice analysis!

I hadn't thought about it that way to be honest. If we were to quickly summarize it we could describe it as, unhardened Alistiar is crushed but doesn't realize what he lost that day, while hardened Alistair is crushed and will spent the rest of his days ruing the fact that the chance to serve Ferelden was taken away from him.

Quick question. Since I have never actually made Alistair king nor have I ever hardened him, when exactly does hardened Alistair express a desire to be king? I've seen the dialogue in the toolset when hardened talks about how he doesn't want Anora to be queen, but the dialogue seems more focused on him hating Anora's guts, not so much on wanting to be king himself. Does he ever actually say that he wants to be king? Or at least, is he less pissed off at the player if they make him king?

Thanks!
Well, when you question him about what he wants to do at the Landsmeet, he says to make him king, that he can do it, and he wants to do it. He also says that Anora isn't an option, because she's just like her father, and people like them think they're the only ones who can get things done (I've got the wording wrong on that last bit, I think, but that's the gist.) After the landsmeet, he says that while it was never what he wanted, he thinks he might be able to do some good. I see what he says in Lothering to be a direct tie in to all of this. Alistair doesn't want to live in a palace, and revel in power, but he does care deeply about people and what happens to them. And when you question him about not wanting to be king at Redcliffe, he says he doesn't want to be the one making decisions that affect people's lives. He cares about people, and he's terrified that he might let them down. It's not until he's convinced that he can do a better job for those people that he accepts being king, and even then, he's doing it for Ferelden, not himself. He wants the job, but he'd rather live in a world where he didn't have to want the job, if you know what I mean.

There's some weirdness at landsmeet in that some unhardened dialogue is reused when the PC chooses the ruler, which makes it seem like he doesn't want to be king, but that's just a case of them not doing the scene a second way to accomodate more proper lines.

In a playthrough with a male PC, and when Alistair battles Loghain (which I always do--it seems more right to me), he declares himself king with no hesitation or discussion.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Yes, it's certainly a lot easier to exile or execute him if you're playing an Alistair hate game. My HNM was quite friendly with him and Alistair's hurt speech is pretty painful to hear.
But, having said that, Alistair is the one who decides to leave the wardens if you show mercy to Loghain, so he is not entirely blameless in the whole scenario.

Indeed. He could've chosen to stay and fight alongside Eamon. I can understand him not wanting to be around Loghain but abandoning everything just like that was hardly a rational decision. So yes, he shares plenty of the blame for whatever happens to him later.

Not sure many people would be very rational after being betrayed so utterly and in so many ways. I think I'd probably lose my mind.

[CalJones]

Heh yes, that's what bit my Dalish elf on the ass. She was hoping they could run the wardens together and had told him she was backing Anora, which he said he was relieved about.
One duel later and he's declared himself king and my Dalish is consigned to the ex-girlfriend category.
That was my one and only attempt to romance Alistair past Landsmeet. Fail.

[nos_astra]

errant_knights analysis is very good. I would add a thought of my own, though, and disagree on one or two points.

Hardened Alistair has learned to look out for himself more because others won't. He embraces being king for he doesn't trust Anora and he's confident enough to do the job himself. He does so before he knows how Anora is going to rule. I think Anora rules just fine and agree with KoP and others who say that Anora is the most obvious choice. Even hardened Alistair has no clue about politics, so I don't necessarily trust his judgement on Anora's abilities.
Without the training-on-the-job Alistair will never be able to say he would have done things differently. How would he know?

Alistair never genuinely wants to be king. Unhardened it's a duty that is inflicted upon him against his will. Hardened he does it to spite Anora and maybe to get rid of the bastard stigma (if he's king then he's officially recognized as Maric's son and Cailan's brother, he's ambitious not to do worse).

So when you recruit Loghain and he is exiled, Alistair will suffer from the betrayal (in his eyes) and the loss of a purpose. He probably won't agonize over every single of Anora's decisions, how would he know about them? If word about the Elven Uprising reaches him he'd probably shake his head and feel a bit of remorse ... but agonize over Anora's rule? No, his fears are largely unfounded.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[CalJones]

@errant - I have to say that I find it rather repellant that Alistair views showing mercy to a defeated foe as an act of betrayal. The "kill him already!" line makes me cringe every time. I know he's reacting out of anger but...ugh.

I do wonder, though, whether he'd stick around as a warden if Loghain could be spared but not made a warden himself. I know he can't accept Loghain as a "brother" and that appears to be much of the reason why he quits.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
@errant - I have to say that I find it rather repellant that Alistair views showing mercy to a defeated foe as an act of betrayal. The "kill him already!" line makes me cringe every time. I know he's reacting out of anger but...ugh.

I think, Loghain's recruitment is the betrayal for Alistair. If you could spare Loghain without recruiting him, leaving the decision of his punishment to the Landsmeet...

[errant_knight]

CalJones wrote...

@errant - I have to say that I find it rather repellant that Alistair views showing mercy to a defeated foe as an act of betrayal. The "kill him already!" line makes me cringe every time. I know he's reacting out of anger but...ugh.
I do wonder, though, whether he'd stick around as a warden if Loghain could be spared but not made a warden himself. I know he can't accept Loghain as a "brother" and that appears to be much of the reason why he quits.

And yet I agree with him utterly.

I suspect that being expected to fight alongside Loghain, to share a camp with him, and trust him to watch his back is the last straw, but he believes Loghain to be a mass murderer and a regicide, and expects the punishment for that to be death.

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

Not sure many people would be very rational after being betrayed so utterly and in so many ways. I think I'd probably lose my mind.

Thing is, I can't call sparing a man for the purpose of making a useful asset in the fight against the blight a betrayal. Alistair may believe it's a betrayal. He's convinced about it in fact, but I honestly can't call it a betrayal.

Yes, Alistair hates Loghain and wants to see him dead. I can understand him being upset at the decision as well as his decision to not want to hang around Loghain. That still doesn't mean that refusing to kill Loghain is a "betrayal". At least not in my view.

(Shall we agree to disagree again? )

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[errant_knight]

klarabella wrote...

errant_knights analysis is very good. I would add a thought of my own, though, and disagree on one or two points.

Hardened Alistair has learned to look out for himself more because others won't. He embraces being king for he doesn't trust Anora and he's confident enough to do the job himself. He does so before he knows how Anora is going to rule. I think Anora rules just fine and agree with KoP and others who say that Anora is the most obvious choice. Even hardened Alistair has no clue about politics, so I don't necessarily trust his judgement on Anora's abilities.
Without the training-on-the-job Alistair will never be able to say he would have done things differently. How would he know?

Alistair never genuinely wants to be king. Unhardened it's a duty that is inflicted upon him against his will. Hardened he does it to spite Anora and maybe to get rid of the bastard stigma (if he's king then he's officially recognized as Maric's son and Cailan's brother, he's ambitious not to do worse).

So when you recruit Loghain and he is exiled, Alistair will suffer from the betrayal (in his eyes) and the loss of a purpose. He probably won't agonize over every single of Anora's decisions, how would he know about them? If word about the Elven Uprising reaches him he'd probably shake his head and feel a bit of remorse ... but agonize over Anora's rule? No, his fears are largely unfounded.

Well, I can't say I agree with you on any of these points, but I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis.

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Not sure many people would be very rational after being betrayed so utterly and in so many ways. I think I'd probably lose my mind.

Thing is, I can't call sparing a man for the purpose of making a useful asset in the fight against the blight a betrayal. Alistair may believe it's a betrayal. He's convinced about it in fact, but I honestly can't call it a betrayal.

Yes, Alistair hates Loghain. That doesn't mean that refusing to kill Loghain is a "betrayal". At least not in my view.

(Shall we agree to disagree again? )

I think we should--after all, I agree with Alistair.
Night ,folks! It's 3 AM (ack!)

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:53 .

[nos_astra]

errant_knight wrote...
Well, I can't say I agree with you on any of these points, but I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis.

I know. I think, both be valid.

Or even if I'm wrong, I enjoy seeing him this way.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[nos_astra]

Zjarcal wrote...
Thing is, I can't call sparing a man for the purpose of making a useful asset in the fight against the blight a betrayal.

If Riordan came out with the true reason why he wants to recruit Loghain, I'd agree with you. However, his arguments are rather foggy. Recruiting Loghain is not something full of advantages, it also has a downside. If Loghain turned on you (something Alistair fully expects) then this would be the end of Ferelden.

That's wherein betrayal lies. You spare him his immediate punishment, you recruit him into your order and you are risking quite a lot in doing so.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[CalJones]

G'night (it's 10am over here...)

And yes, I'd expect most of the people here agree with Alistair - it's the Alistair thread, so I'm not going to press the point.

Still, silly thing is, if Alistair had stuck around, he wouldn't have had to deal with Loghain for long, given that he was reassigned to Montsimmard. Heh. I think Al would have found that pretty amusing, actually.

[Zjarcal]

@Klarabella:



I know. Riordan doesn't really make the most convincing argument. It's a matter of whether you're willing to trust his word. As for Loghain turning on you, I gotta admit that I don't really think he would. Of course, you may think otherwise and that's completely valid.



I do have one question, if only out of pointless curiosity. You stated in an earlier post (top of this page to be precise) that on your canon playthrough you have Alistair exiled, which obviously means Loghain is spared. What exactly was the RP justification for this? Given that you don't seem to back the idea of sparing Loghain as a good one, I take it this was more about what would fit your character and not your actual view on the situation.

[nos_astra]

Maybe calling it playthrough is a bit much considering that the character is only level 3. It's a playthrough that exists in my head and as a written outline only. I never got around to actually play her (but I will, it's the savegame I would want to import into DA2).

It is my canon because her character is the most interesting. She embraces being a Warden by the time of the Landsmeet but she's also very tired. All the responsibility is wearing her down, so when Riordan makes a suggestion she simply agrees. Good thing Alistair is trying to grab the throne because she never considered this to be an option. A Grey Warden has no name and no title. Period. The Landsmeet kind of gets out of hand.
Her relationship with Alistair is interesting, they do have one, however, she is unable to commit herself fully, so it's rather a dance around each other, on and off. He loves her and sometimes wonders why, she doesn't even know if she loves him (probably not, or maybe she does?).
I wanted them to clash, so she annulled the Circle and made Isolde kill Connor.

It's hard to balance her. I want her to be human, still likeable but flawed. She's not arbitrarily violent or lacks compassion, but she's pragmatic enough to accept that she's going to leave death and destruction in her wake, sometimes consciously, sometimes accidentally.

She's certainly not me. It's very interesting to have a Warden you like but don't always agree with. And Alistair, my favourite character, who needs to grow up.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[CalJones]

Yeah - probably more interesting than having a warden you don't like at all. I have to say I absolutely hated my Dalish. She was a b****.

In a way I found it quite funny that Alistair dumped her - she didn't deserve a happy ending.

Alistair then killed the archdemon and she went back to the Dalish a bitter and angry woman determined never to trust another shem. I imagine she'd have ended up like Velanna, but in my head she was mauled to death by a bear. I deleted the playthrough immediately after finishing it.

[LadyDamodred]

Throwing in my two cents before I dash off to work. Exiling Alistair is devastating to him not matter what, but in the long run I think it's more harmful if he's unhardened. Unhardened, the betrayal will completely blindside him, especially if the PC is his friend/lover. That's a far worse wayt to lose your innocence than the hardening incident. Hardened Alistair, while he might turn bitter and jaded, has sort of been prepared for this a little bit, and I think hardened Alistair would probably pull himself out of his despair sooner.



Either way, Alistair will never be the same again. He might get back some of what he was before the Landsmeet, but at least hardened has some mental/emotional defense against the PC's betrayal at the Landsmeet. Unhardened Alistair doesn't.

[Aeowyn]

Still pisses me off that you can't keep Alistair as a Grey Warden (ie, have loads of persuasion to convince him) and recruit Loghain. Yes he wanted his revenge but surely Loghain can't be to blame for the deaths of the Grey Wardens?
The death of Cailan? Perhaps. But the Grey Wardens know that they will die batteling the darkspawn in one way or another. Even Duncan knew this and he even TOLD Alistair that this might happen.
Saved Loghain once. I find him a very interesting character, but the Alistair convo during the Landsmeet just made me go mushy inside. So yeah, my canon is that they rebuild the Grey Wardens together.

Just read LadyDamodred's post above and I agree. It would be more harmful for unhardened Alistair. Considering the life he's had, with a very crappy confidence, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he went suicidal after the Landsmeet. Because that unhardened Alistair who becomes exiled is just a downward spiral of doom.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Wulfram]

I just wish Alistair had brought it up earlier. We could have talked it out beforehand, but it clearly comes as a total shock to him, while I'm obviously not going to accept someones surrender and then say "Whoops, sorry. Actually I'm going to kill you"

[inclemency]

Good morning, its RDT, isn't it?

Modifié par inclemency, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:10 .