Guest_StreetMagic_*
Alistair isn't villain material. That's all I'll add.
And those historical tales of England were mostly about rotten, conniving, entitled people. King Richard, the Tudors, etc.. He doesn't fit the profile at all. Whatever happens, I know he wouldn't do Anora too wrong. Even a hardened Alistair is fairly chill.
I would only harden Alistair if he is to be with Anora and rule together. If not he would just end up like Cailan. Other than that i never seen the reason behind hardening him. Aslong as you are a friend to him, or married to him you can be his guide and help him along the way.
My canon is Female Human Noble and married to Alistair, its probably my favourite romance in any video game and the only one i can repeat over and over. What bothered me abit in Inquisition is that you don't have the chance to talk to him about that part when he is King. If he is a Warden on the other hand he has some great lines about the HoF that felt more satisfying. Shame i won't see it in my canon, but i assume he feels the same regardless of how you romanced him and what the outcome was.
Eamon is blinded by tradition.
Calling for the landsmeet is unnecessary when there already is someone ruling Ferelden in Caillan's place. Anora isn't a great person but she was doing the job just fine.
It isn't so much Anora Eamon objects to, its Loghain. Anora's father took over and was trying to play Regent (and failing epic'ly). Eamon's a traditionalist and wants to maintain Theirin blood/rule because a lot of people died 30 years ago to restore the Theirins to the throne, and he wants someone he can manipulate on the throne, (Alistair) but he's content if you leave Anora on it as long as the issue of Loghain is dealt with, and the Blight gets resolved. And to remove Loghain means a Landsmeet must be called, as Eamon's not all okay with the idea of assassination.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I would only harden Alistair if he is to be with Anora and rule together. If not he would just end up like Cailan. Other than that i never seen the reason behind hardening him. Aslong as you are a friend to him, or married to him you can be his guide and help him along the way.
My canon is Female Human Noble and married to Alistair, its probably my favourite romance in any video game and the only one i can repeat over and over. What bothered me abit in Inquisition is that you don't have the chance to talk to him about that part when he is King. If he is a Warden on the other hand he has some great lines about the HoF that felt more satisfying. Shame i won't see it in my canon, but i assume he feels the same regardless of how you romanced him and what the outcome was.
I harden him because I hate being a Warden. And just telling him the same thing he's saying to me indirectly --- that everyone is out for themselves. Including him and the Wardens. He thinks everything should be peachy in his own world, but all I'm doing on some characters is reminding him how much everyone wants to screw you over. Not all characters, mind you. Just some. He's a little oblivious to the Warden's own frustrations, for his own good.
edit: This has nothing to do with romance though. Just my thoughts in general.
I would only harden Alistair if he is to be with Anora and rule together. If not he would just end up like Cailan. Other than that i never seen the reason behind hardening him. Aslong as you are a friend to him, or married to him you can be his guide and help him along the way.
I've been to the Tower of London and judging by the amount of torture gadgets on their dungeons, outliving him would be highly unlikely. Royal prisoner or not.
<snort> She's royalty. She won't get the dungeon. She'll get the penthouse suite. Many VIP prisoners lived for many years in the tower.
<snort> She's royalty. She won't get the dungeon. She'll get the penthouse suite. Many VIP prisoners lived for many years in the tower.
That doesn't sound healthy.
Two people in a relationship incentivate one another to grow, not dependency.
I do agree, but hardening him seems to go against the kind of person he wants to be and is quite comfortable beeing. There are a million other ways for Alistair to grow during the friendship/relationship, i just don't agree with the hardening, as i think he would be a good king regardless.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I do agree, but hardening him seems to go against the kind of person he wants to be and is quite comfortable beeing. There are a million other ways for Alistair to grow during the friendship/relationship, i just don't agree with the hardening, as i think he would be a good king regardless.
When talking to Leliana, he's comfortable with being a "little weak" and not good at steeling himself. He could learn some things.
That's good in some light, but I would argue not in many ways here. Especially a King. If, however, you want to do exactly what he wants -- stay Wardens, romance, and adventure together -- then perhaps that's cool. I wish the Warden luck on curing the both of them.
---
On a sidenote, I wish my Inquisitor had as clear a scenario for personal happiness as that. Especially the one that romances Cassandra (who we could argue is sort of an Alistair scenario for males). I feel like my Inquisitor is a more miserable character in general... it's harder to shake off any bullshit myth off of their backs. Or that Cass is a bit in limbo without the Divine or Seeker choice. But maybe that's just in my head... I still wonder.
I'm sick to death of self-sacrifice. I want at least one of my heroes to have the option of love. But I also think they should be good (it would leave a bad taste in my mouth if my jerkass Warden with Morrigan got to be more happy than anyone).
I do agree, but hardening him seems to go against the kind of person he wants to be and is quite comfortable beeing. There are a million other ways for Alistair to grow during the friendship/relationship, i just don't agree with the hardening, as i think he would be a good king regardless.
I have to disagree, Alistair unhardened makes a crappy king. He's miserable, doesn't want to be king, and feels trapped with no say so in his life, and less confidence in his decisions. He tends to run off and leave all the heavy king work to Anora, Eamon or the Warden. While this is the scenario I suspect Eamon was hoping for, I'd never put unhardened Alistair on the throne. Hardened, he tends to be more decisive, is much happier/accepting of being king and, as a consequence, is a much better king. Unhardened Alistair waffles in all his decisions, double guessing anything he does and not trusting his instincts. I want to slap unhardened Alistair at the Landsmeet, he couldn't make up his mind. For me, on a manliness scale of one to ten that ranks about a -3, and I find it extremely unattractive and annoying.
Unhardened is fine, I suppose, as a grey warden though I suspect he will always rely on the warden to tell him what to do if she never pushes him to grow. But as king, he needs to be more than just what he is when you meet him. He needs to learn to stand up for himself and Ferelden. I suspect unhardened Alistair is all the image Anora knows of him and this is why she's so insistent he isn't suited for the job. She even says this in her dialogue, saying he will be used by manipulative nobles (Eamon) for their own purposes. Because unhardened Alistair is essentially Cailan, who just wanted to run away and play and left ruling to Anora. No one is more surprised than Anora if you marry her to hardened Alistair and she finds him very different from the man she expected him to be.
Hardening him isn't changing who he is, deep down, it's just making him so he learns to trust his instincts more and he becomes more confident in his decisions and leadership skills. I look on it as 'building his self esteem', something Eamon never did for the boy growing up.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Speaking of the unhardened thing, it was interesting trying it and getting the Alistair/Anora dispute at the Landsmeet. And seeing Eamon moving himself into the conversation. I finally tried this scenario. He's definitely trying to take more charge with an unhardened Alistair already.
Not if my warden got a say in it with or without Alistair's approval. After the battle she'll be hanged . She's still a threat to the crown after all. Backstabbing in any forms does not go down well.
Of course, it's not canon, but in my fanfic, I had her live with Alistair as king. She stewed in the tower for about a week, and finally practicality won out over pride. With her father dead and her supporters supporting Alistair as king, she had no resources to bear toward retaking the throne so she swore fealty to Alistair and was released to become Teryna of Gwaren.
I don't think your warden would want to start off her marriage going behind Alistair's back to kill a rival, essentially backstabbing him and undermining his decisions. That seems like you're condemning Anora for using the same tactics your warden would. Worse, from Anora he'd expect it, but not from the woman he loves.
I have to disagree, Alistair unhardened makes a crappy king. He's miserable, doesn't want to be king, and feels trapped with no say so in his life, and less confidence in his decisions. He tends to run off and leave all the heavy king work to Anora, Eamon or the Warden. While this is the scenario I suspect Eamon was hoping for, I'd never put unhardened Alistair on the throne. Hardened, he tends to be more decisive, is much happier/accepting of being king and, as a consequence, is a much better king. Unhardened Alistair waffles in all his decisions, double guessing anything he does and not trusting his instincts. I want to slap unhardened Alistair at the Landsmeet, he couldn't make up his mind. For me, on a manliness scale of one to ten that ranks about a -3, and I find it extremely unattractive and annoying.
And this is based on what? Him saying a few times that he doesn't want to be king? You can encourage him in a positive way aswell. You know Instead of telling a person you care about that "people are just out for themself" which in that case is a lie seeing as you are people and you care about him. If you harden him it doesn't change the way he act in Dragon Age II or Inquisition, and he seems to be a fine King in those two circumstances. Not saying hardening him is a bad choice or anything, it just doesn't fit how i would talk to a friend or future husband.
Yep. If Alistair has to go then let him go with a big bang in the Deep Roads preferably with my warden since they're never ever bringing the Warden back. At least put them to rest the heroic way.
It would have been awesome to have an option for a double sacrifice vs the Archdemon,that is how a true romance story arc have to end,kinda like
Corin and Neriah.
I like to think Drunk Alistair is, indeed happier than king or warden Alistair, or has the potential to be so. Hope is so much more powerful than even love IMO. But he has demons of his own making to fight in that instance.
Well in my canon where Loghain is dead he got better(better than King or Warden ending),if the cost to save the life of a man was to just make another a momentary drunk,is not so bad.
Aye Alistair is the only one i'd call mate in the franchise, spot on character Whether in romance or bromance, that guy will never let you down.
And this is based on what? Him saying a few times that he doesn't want to be king? You can encourage him in a positive way aswell. You know Instead of telling a person you care about that "people are just out for themself" which in that case is a lie seeing as you are people and you care about him. If you harden him it doesn't change the way he act in Dragon Age II or Inquisition, and he seems to be a fine King in those two circumstances. Not saying hardening him is a bad choice or anything, it just doesn't fit how i would talk to a friend or future husband.
This is based on his behavior after he is made king unhardened, always running away and leaving the ruling to Anora/Eamon or the warden. That's not idle speculation, that's in the game--at least the end slides. This is the perfect scenario for someone wanting a figurehead they can manipulate, and rule behind the throne, but not good for Alistair being an effective king. This is evident on more than just a few lines in the Landsmeet, this is based on his behavior at the Landsmeet where he waffles about and can't make up his mind (unhardened) as opposed to the young man who is certain he can do a good job as king (hardened). This is especially evident when the question of what to do with Anora comes up. Alistair hardened says "Put her in the tower. If I don't survive, she can have the throne. Otherwise we'll see." Unhardened, he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do with her. "Put her in the tower? I guess?"
Admittedly, I'll grant you, without IRS:Alistair, the hardening line is awful. I blame Bioware for that one, but making Alistair king without getting him to see that fighting for what he wants isn't a bad thing--you won't be made Mistress without it--is just setting Ferelden up for a world of tears considering that most nobles/rulers are out for themselves/their countries and will manipulate him. Did you plan on your warden following him around making sure people don't take advantage of him? Considering the Hero of Ferelden has other duties to keep her busy, your warden can't be his keeper 24/7.
"People are just out for themselves" isn't a lie considering how harsh a world Thedas is, and in the context of when it's used, it fits Goldanna perfectly since she is just looking out for herself.
Not saying leaving him unhardened is all that bad, I didn't always harden him if I was leaving him a GW, just saying unhardened Alistair as king is a bad thing. If you have difficulty with hardening him, you shouldn't be making him king, because married to your warden or not, he's not going to be as happy as if you kept him a GW, which is what he really wants.
As for it not having an impact on future games, well constraints of storytelling had to be applied to his cameo. They weren't going to create 2-3 different scenes based on whether hardened or not just to satisfy every single contingency from Origins with multiple lines they have to pay Steve Valentine to deliver. Plus neither Hawke nor the Inquisitor is someone Alistair feels comfortable being himself with as they have only just met.
What I don’t understand about Anora is why she allows her father to be the regent? Isn’t she the Queen? Shouldn’t she be the regent? It’s like his father wasn’t enough confident on her about ruling Ferelden, but she claims that everybody knows she’s been the one who has been taking decisions instead of Cailan. If Loghain is the general of the armies, why taking power this way? Wouldn’t have been a better move, keep Anora as the regent, and he governing from behind the throne?
On the other hand, when I decided Alistair to be the king, I must admit it was more like a selfish decision, based in the fact I don’t trust Anora enough I see her capable to doing anything to keep herself in the throne, I feel betrayed by her in the Landsmeet, and I see Alistair capable enough to do his duty however he’s not sure…
Hardening him isn't changing who he is, deep down, it's just making him so he learns to trust his instincts more and he becomes more confident in his decisions and leadership skills. I look on it as 'building his self esteem', something Eamon never did for the boy growing up.
I totally agree with it. I see Alistair like the kind of person who has potential but he doesn’t believe enough on himself and only needs a little push to fulfill it, I see that if we harden him we do that little push, like if it were something that already is inside him and you help it to flourish, and that’s why I harden him, and however he marries my warden, I don’t want him to be only a puppet of her or Eamon about how he should rule. I see as he can have them as advisors and can consider their opinions but he shouldn’t allow them to take all the decisions. However I always forget that Alistair in that moment is very young, and hardened or not, when we see and older version of him in DA:I, being king or mainly been a warden, he seems more confident an able to act on his own without waiting for orders, so it also comes with age and experience
I’ve been replaying DA:I with warden Alistair, and what can I say, besides I like his new HD look… I would love to see him as king as much as we’ve seen him as warden…but I know that it wouldn’t fit too much into the story though
About him as warden, I’ll put my thoughts inside the spoiler tag, just in case:
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Epilogue, Alistair sole ruler (unhardened):
“In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair proved to be a popular king... if largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing.
He traveled often, making appearances in towns throughout Ferelden to the great delight of the commoners. They referred to him as a king with the "common touch," even if a few knew it was a simple aversion to life at court."
You may headcanon that softened Alistair still can become king material, but the game doesn't offer that option.
King Alistair is pretty much the same in most endings. It's hard to go too wrong. Even a hardened Alistair married to Anora. Except he's more willing to learn and govern and knows how to impress her and other times knows when to defer to her expertise. Personally, I think he's meeting more of his potential like this.
True but Alistair was ready to lop her head anyway just as she deffo lops his head if you dont interject. When he said stick her in the tower, that's only just in case he dies. We can all head cannon however we want, but she remains a threat to the throne while she's alive. Specially when probably half the population is probably still dazzled by her father's former glory. And a fallen queen replaced by a grey warden bad enough. She was being smart when she KOs Alistair, I give her that.Of course, it's not canon, but in my fanfic, I had her live with Alistair as king. She stewed in the tower for about a week, and finally practicality won out over pride. With her father dead and her supporters supporting Alistair as king, she had no resources to bear toward retaking the throne so she swore fealty to Alistair and was released to become Teryna of Gwaren.
I don't think your warden would want to start off her marriage going behind Alistair's back to kill a rival, essentially backstabbing him and undermining his decisions. That seems like you're condemning Anora for using the same tactics your warden would. Worse, from Anora he'd expect it, but not from the woman he loves.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'm dazzled by Loghain's glory myself. lol
ONLY because he's just a man.. and this setting lacks many heroes like that. This is what endears him to so many, and what (sadly) deluded Loghain into thinking he could handle a blight. That you could just fight things off through skill and hard work. Unfortunately, it didn't work in this case... but I can't blame him too much for believing that. Because it's how true heroes in reality would think. They would dismiss fables and tall tales, like he did.
But I'm dazzled because he's nothing like anything we'll get to play ourselves. It's even worse with Inquisition and the superhero Jesus nature of the Inquisitor. Loghain represents simple people fighting back in a crisis. He's also someone who rewards on merit and not nobility or "special chosen one-ness" -- like Cauthrien. She was just a farmer herself. He's the Warrior version of other down to earth heroes, like the Black Fox. Something this world lacks enough of. It's all magic, magic, magic. The whole setting is written by mage fans.
I'm dazzled by Loghain's glory myself. lol
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Did I ever mention I had a crush on him in the books?
lol.. Well, he's gotten a bit.... old. But I bet he was a bit more like Nathaniel at one point.
lol.. Well, he's gotten a bit.... old. But I bet he was a bit more like Nathaniel at one point.
Guest_Chiara Fan_*
This is based on his behavior after he is made king unhardened, always running away and leaving the ruling to Anora/Eamon or the warden. That's not idle speculation, that's in the game--at least the end slides.
The end slides also say that Cullen becomes a deranged serial killer if you don't Annul the Circle. 
I think the devs have also said that the slides are just in-universe rumors from characters who don't have all the facts, and that they shouldn't be taken as "canon" so much as a possible "what could have happened" after the events of the game until proven otherwise, but should be taken with a grain of salt. So, I take them with a grain of salt.
As for it not having an impact on future games, well constraints of storytelling had to be applied to his cameo. They weren't going to create 2-3 different scenes based on whether hardened or not just to satisfy every single contingency from Origins with multiple lines they have to pay Steve Valentine to deliver. Plus neither Hawke nor the Inquisitor is someone Alistair feels comfortable being himself with as they have only just met.
Is that what the devs said? If not, I think it's speculation. ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Personally, I wondered why they didn't have a "hardened" or "unhardened" Alistair in Inquisition too, and I speculate they don't do it partly because he gained confidence as he got older, so it doesn't really matter in the long run.
During DAO, it should be noted that Alistair is only 18-20, and very much a sheltered boy who was told what to do his whole life, and is out on his own for the first time. He was raised in a castle (always told what to do by Eamon), then sheltered in the Templars (always told what to do by his superiors), then spent 6 months with the Grey Wardens (always directed where to go by Duncan), then was thrust into a leadership role with you after the Grey Wardens died. Of course he doesn't have confidence in his leadership or decision-making abilities; he's never had to before.
But by Inquisition, he's had ten years to "grow into his armor," so to speak.
If made king, he's had ten years to get used to wearing the crown and dealing with affairs of state. (Maybe he did start off shirking his responsibilities and running away to taverns like the slides said, or those were just exaggerated rumors by subjects who loved him, but he grew up and got over it by Da2/Inquisition). If a Grey Warden, he's had ten years to get used to working with the Grey Wardens as an equal or superior (not as a Junior Warden) since you met him at Ostagar.
If you didn't harden him during Origins (when he was still an inexperienced "lad"), then he hardened into the role of his own accord and grew up by the time the Inquisitior (possibly) meets him in Inquisition.
What I don’t understand about Anora is why she allows her father to be the regent? Isn’t she the Queen? Shouldn’t she be the regent? It’s like his father wasn’t enough confident on her about ruling Ferelden, but she claims that everybody knows she’s been the one who has been taking decisions instead of Cailan. If Loghain is the general of the armies, why taking power this way? Wouldn’t have been a better move, keep Anora as the regent, and he governing from behind the throne?
Um, Anora can't be regent because (according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary) a regent is "a person who governs a kingdom in the minority, absence, or disability of the sovereign." The only way Anora would be regent is if someone else was the sovereign king or queen for her to be the regent of, and we all know Anora (and Loghain, for that matter) will not give up her throne.
Otherwise, I completely agree. 
Loghain goes on and on about how Ferelden has a capable queen and he "just commands her armies," yet he crowned himself king in all but name, took over the politics (and did a terrible job!), then brushed her aside when she disagreed with him. (It's not like she'd know more about politics than he does; why listen to her advice?)
The only reason I can think that she let him declare himself regent is that she thinks her daddy walks on water. Like Ser Cauthrien, she's blindly devoted to Loghain and thinks he can do no wrong. It takes him nearly driving the country into the ground for her to realize he's not the perfectly flawless "never-had-a-bad-idea-in-his-head" superhero that she thought he was.
I totally agree with it. I see Alistair like the kind of person who has potential but he doesn’t believe enough on himself and only needs a little push to fulfill it, I see that if we harden him we do that little push, like if it were something that already is inside him and you help it to flourish, and that’s why I harden him, and however he marries my warden, I don’t want him to be only a puppet of her or Eamon about how he should rule. I see as he can have them as advisors and can consider their opinions but he shouldn’t allow them to take all the decisions.
I personally don't like hardening Alistair. 
I don't see it as "raising his self-esteem" or "giving him that little push to believe in himself," I see it as crushing his spirit. You're kicking him while he's at his lowest point from being rejected by the last family he thinks he has. Rather than reassuring him that you're his friend or that people care about him, you're basically confirming his fears that no one will ever love him or care about him because they're all out for themselves (including you), so he should just be out for himself too. I hated that! 
I hardened Alistair once and I hated it! He was always so angry and grumpy, and always convinced that everyone had some secret ulterior motive and were trying to use you and him, even if it was clearly not the case. For all his faults, unhardened Alistair is cheerful and sees the best in everyone. Hardened Alistair is always angry or grumpy and just suspects the worst in everyone. 
I personally don't think he's happier or more confident if hardened, he's just convinced (by you) that everyone's a self-serving jerk so he should be a self-serving jerk too (even though it goes against his own morals), which he sometimes has to visibly rationalize to himself in front of the Warden.
On the other hand...
However I always forget that Alistair in that moment is very young, and hardened or not, when we see and older version of him in DA:I, being king or mainly been a warden, he seems more confident an able to act on his own without waiting for orders, so it also comes with age and experience
I agree. At the end of the game, Alistair is just young and inexperienced and not very confident in himself. I think by Inquisition he's had time to grow some confidence (if unhardened) or mellow out (if hardened), and basically be a better-rounded adult. (Not too much of a push-over like unhardened Alistair, but also not a suspicious grump like "hardened" Alistair.)
I may not agree with you guys about hardening Alistair, but in the long run I don't think it really matters because he grows up and becomes a more confident and well-rounded adult whether you harden him or not. (Unless he's a wandering drunk, but then Teagan came and got him in DA2, so he's probably on the recovery train.)
Not if my warden got a say in it with or without Alistair's approval. After the battle she'll be hanged . She's still a threat to the crown after all. Backstabbing in any forms does not go down well.
It is far more likely that Anora ended up in that tower because you backstabbed her than vice versa. It's possible to win without Anora's support if you do everything else right, but if you didn't make a deal with her, then she doesn't owe you her support. In any case executing Anora despite her popularity, won't make Alistair as secure on his throne as you think.
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