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[Yaroub]

 

I do not understand this statement.

There is no element of betrayal from the Warden part in wanting an extra Warden like the senior grey warden RIordan suggested

(mind that this GW not only was tortured under Loghain/Howe orders,but also knew Duncan far better than AListair) ,regardless of the Warden relationship with AListair as far as i'm concerned the warden can't be accused of betrayal even if we took under consideration all the shades of the word.

As far as the word betrayal is concerned Alistair is the one who act selfish here and become a traitor of the order.

The warden in this decision do not lie,do not deceive and do not escape from duty,so among all the shades of the word betrayal or being selfish,none of them can be applied to the Warden in this circumstances,but they can beapplied to AListair.

 

 

I can agree with most of what you say-especially- your interpretation of the suggested betrayal. In the sense of the word there's no betrayal towards Alistair, i can see if you're fond of\like him you won't approach such direction only for the sake of you keeping him satisfied. But then again you would be a sh*t tactician.

 

But you surely throw the word treason loosely when it comes to Morrigan/Alistair. In the end you're not the boss of him and when it comes to the two of you he is the senior warden. True he fail badly to remind you of that due to his lacking personalty of the leadership factor, which in a certain scale we interact with only a little when we first meet him at Ostagar, it's a shame he lost that vibe as we carried on.

 

I would've liked if he challenged me more often for it could've prepared me for his outburst at the Landsmeet instead of just dropping it out from nowhere-well- not out of nowhere, he makes himself clear many times in conversation his hatred of Loghain and his general attitude toward the regent with the exception of his line past the battle at Ostagar and Loghain betrayal(that's a betrayal for you) when he admired him and made a remark that Loghain is the man that will lead the troops to victory not the king his own brother which he didn't trust for his witty behavior that surprisingly matches that of his own. It's like he reflected his own character on the king and thus deemed him a failure. Hell it's a syndrome, i'll call it the "Alistair syndrome". Mind you, i agree with most of his thoughts on Loghain.

 

And it is as you say regarding Riordan an elder more senior warden proposed the deal knowing what kind of a man Loghain is and what hell befall on him from both Howe and Loghain. But that simply doesn't make it so, you say extra warden..well, he's not any person, he's the ultimate betrayal(and again that's a betrayal for you). It's funny, you who in numerous times remind and insist on the military principle in situations that such rule does not fit ignore it's hierarchy when it's matter the most.

 

The moment Loghain called off the troops, he sentenced himself to death according to the essence of the military law and in his own guts he knew what he got himself into...he knew trouble and pain, we see him in the first cutscene when Howe introduce Zevran a soulless creature a shell of the man he once was, drinking and barking confused and hopeless in the face of the blight. It's a pathetic situation he put himself into and if not for those he betrayed and left for dead at Ostagar he would've cowered and took refuge in Orlais leaving Ferelden to be wiped by the blight, i mean he's a coward he demonstrated that in Ostagar. It would've been for his own good if had died along his comrades and his king with honor and dignity, instead of being written in the history books as the bad joke he is. Pathetic.

 

I merely view it as me warden betraying himself and his own beliefs if he is to accept Riordan proposition. A man when "in death sacrifice" called he didn't answer.

 

You see Loghain is all bark and no bite. I need not such a man.

[Qun00]

I always go with number 5 and wait for him to freak out ლ(ಠ_ಠლ). Love to pester the guy over and over again, he drops the best lines when he's anxious!

I also enjoy picking on Alistair from time to time, like when he says "So, I've been thinking" and the Warden says "Oh? I thought you might be sick or something."

I do not understand this statement.
There is no element of betrayal from the Warden part in wanting an extra Warden like the senior grey warden RIordan suggested
(mind that this GW not only was tortured under Loghain/Howe orders,but also knew Duncan far better than AListair) ,regardless of the Warden relationship with AListair as far as i'm concerned the warden can't be accused of betrayal even if we took under consideration all the shades of the word.
As far as the word betrayal is concerned Alistair is the one who act selfish here and become a traitor of the order.
The warden in this decision do not lie,do not deceive and do not escape from duty,so among all the shades of the word betrayal or being selfish,none of them can be applied to the Warden in this circumstances,but they can beapplied to AListair.

I think Gaider meant it as a betrayal to their relationship/friendship.

Alistair expected you to know and care about how he feels. Any relationship is a two way street and what the Warden wants shouldn't be the only thing that ever matters.

[Shizukai]

Ahhh, here we are again. I really know why I fell for Alistair the first time I went through
DAO. And why I do over and over again  Sorry for spamming.

(Nice coming back to this heartwarming romance)

 

 

 

Hehe.

 

Spoiler

[BevH]

Pick option 3! Pick option 3!     

[gottaloveme]

I'm sorry - I think I missed something here. What dialogue options are we talking about for Big Al?

 

No - okay- I got it. Must've blinked or something. My advice get him into the tent as fast as possible. I mean the game only lasts for so long.

[Aren]

I can agree with most of what you say-especially- your interpretation of the suggested betrayal. In the sense of the word there's no betrayal towards Alistair, i can see if you're fond of\like him you won't approach such direction only for the sake of you keeping him satisfied. But then again you would be a sh*t tactician.

 

But you surely throw the word treason loosely when it comes to Morrigan/Alistair. In the end you're not the boss of him and when it comes to the two of you he is the senior warden. 

By the definitions of the word betrayal and some of its shades,is somehow very difficult to find an approach that will allow to label the warden as someone who commits an act of treason:

 

1

to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty:

2

to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling:

to betray a trust.

3

to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to:

to betray one's friends.

4.

to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence:

to betray a secret.

5.

to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal):

Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

(mind that this have nothing to do with the shades we are into but it can be applied to Alistair and Morrigan especially during their romance arch but not to the Warden who never show any insecurity)

6.

to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose:

an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7.

to deceive, misguide, or corrupt:

 

Now as far as i'm concerned 4 characters of the crew of DAO can be labeled as such, those are:

Loghain,Zevran,Alistair and Morrigan,since i did not consider the hostile attacks that may happen with some other members(Shale,Wynne,Leliana ecc..) as a form of betrayal since they weren't unfaithful the definition n2 they simply were shocked by a harsh decision that ruined their life and belief,a trauma caused by the Warden and they turned to become enemies 

 I don't even blame them since in order to attack the warden the protagonist has to commit what i will define as evil deeds such as murder of innocents,desecration of relics and kill the mentor of a companion by supporting something of whom Shale is against which is the same slavery that she suffered  since she was a Golem.

 

1-7 Loghain::

As general it was in his right to command his part of the army,it is not Ostagar that we have to look in order to consider him as a traitor,but the subsequent deeds.

Poison an arle,selling slaves,lies and deceives about the wardens,a self proclaimed regency,protecting Howe from justice ecc..,no one should have a problem into recognize him as someone who committed treason,this is a mandatory event (will always happen in the game)

 

2 Alistair::

If the specific scenario happened at the landsmeet,his act that come from a huge disappointment rather than a malicious intent can still be considered as a betrayal,he wasn't strong enough to simply decide to abandon the party but still remain with Riordan who was somehow more independent,so i would say the     definition N2,this however  is not a mandatory scenario.

 

1-2-7 Zevran::

If the specific scenario arise

(albeit i do not remember what kind of approval is required) this one sworn an oath to the Warden and later decide to ally himself with Talisen,like in Alistair case     however this is not a mandatory scenario.

 

 

2-7 Morrigan::

She fooled the warden more than once,in Flemeth's hut when she said that she didn't know as for why Flemeth aided the warden

(i don't blame her for that, because she would have  betrayed her mother by doing so ),twice during her personal quest during the search of the 1st grimoire,since during that conversation Morrigan promised 

(if the 1st dialogue branches is taken) to be more useful in return of the first Grimoire ,words that evidently she did not maintain anymore if the ritual is refused at the end and also whens she ask to kill her mother

(it is stated into the Toolset in the conversations between FLemeth and the Warden that Morrigan did lied in part to obtain the result ).

 

 

N3

The Warden::

By the definition,the warden may only be somehow accused on Alistair to have been deluded his expectations,more something that i will define as a disappointment,described as the N3 .

Still i'm not akin to consider it as a betrayal,sice let us not forget what is AListair's request,he didn't ask the warden a chocolate ice cream he did asked an execution,there is no such rules into the Landsmeet that dictates to kill those who lost the duel and if Riordan wanted Loghain or the Warden childhood was colored with the tales of the Hero that he once was,Alistair request may become simply unacceptable for the Warden since he is not demanding imprisonment,he is demanding death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yaroub]

 

By the definitions of the word betrayal and some of its shades,is somehow very difficult to find an approach that will allow to label the warden as someone who commits an act of treason:

 

1

to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty:

2

to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling:

to betray a trust.

3

to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to:

to betray one's friends.

4.

to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence:

to betray a secret.

5.

to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal):

Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

(mind that this have nothing to do with the shades we are into but it can be applied to Alistair and Morrigan especially during their romance arch but not to the Warden who never show any insecurity)

6.

to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose:

an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7.

to deceive, misguide, or corrupt:

 

Now as far as i'm concerned 4 characters of the crew of DAO can be labeled as such, those are:

Loghain,Zevran,Alistair and Morrigan,since i did not consider the hostile attacks that may happen with some other members(Shale,Wynne,Leliana ecc..) as a form of betrayal since they weren't unfaithful the definition n2 they simply were shocked by a harsh decision that ruined their life and belief,a trauma caused by the Warden and they turned to become enemies 

 I don't even blame them since in order to attack the warden the protagonist has to commit what i will define as evil deeds such as murder of innocents,desecration of relics and kill the mentor of a companion by supporting something of whom Shale is against which is the same slavery that she suffered  since she was a Golem.

 

1-7 Loghain::

As general it was in his right to command his part of the army,it is not Ostagar that we have to look in order to consider him as a traitor,but the subsequent deeds.

Poison an arle,selling slaves,lies and deceives about the wardens,a self proclaimed regency,protecting Howe from justice ecc..,no one should have a problem into recognize him as someone who committed treason,this is a mandatory event (will always happen in the game)

 

2 Alistair::

If the specific scenario happened at the landsmeet,his act that come from a huge disappointment rather than a malicious intent can still be considered as a betrayal,he wasn't strong enough to simply decide to abandon the party but still remain with Riordan who was somehow more independent,so i would say the     definition N2,this however  is not a mandatory scenario.

 

1-2-7 Zevran::

If the specific scenario arise

(albeit i do not remember what kind of approval is required) this one sworn an oath to the Warden and later decide to ally himself with Talisen,like in Alistair case     however this is not a mandatory scenario.

 

 

2-7 Morrigan::

She fooled the warden more than once,in Flemeth's hut when she said that she didn't know as for why Flemeth aided the warden

(i don't blame her for that, because she would have  betrayed her mother by doing so ),twice during her personal quest during the search of the 1st grimoire,since during that conversation Morrigan promised 

(if the 1st dialogue branches is taken) to be more useful in return of the first Grimoire ,words that evidently she did not maintain anymore if the ritual is refused at the end and also whens she ask to kill her mother

(it is stated into the Toolset in the conversations between FLemeth and the Warden that Morrigan did lied in part to obtain the result ).

 

 

N3

The Warden::

By the definition,the warden may only be somehow accused on Alistair to have been deluded his expectations,more something that i will define as a disappointment,described as the N3 .

Still i'm not akin to consider it as a betrayal,sice let us not forget what is AListair's request,he didn't ask the warden a chocolate ice cream he did asked an execution,there is no such rules into the Landsmeet that dictates to kill those who lost the duel and if Riordan wanted Loghain or the Warden childhood was colored with the tales of the Hero that he once was,Alistair request may become simply unacceptable for the Warden since he is not demanding imprisonment,he is demanding death.

 

In what way they were more faithful (Leliana,Wynne,Shale) than the rest, at least Alistair/Morrigan won't turn turn their weapons against me like'em. Invoke pretexts that means nothing for a warden to paint him black he's already black. Leliana,Wynne and Shale -->a strange alien creature don't need to fully grasp my reasons to make them valid.

 

RP wise i engage options as i see fit in order to face the Blight and it's fitting that i add Golems as a complementary to my Dwarf army, empowering the Dwarves in the process and enable them to keep the darkspawn at bay. Killing Caridin is convenient and the stone that is Shale can continue what it was doing, it subjugated itself to the transformation voluntarily no slavery involved, it rebels against its purpose it dies.

Trying to distort and flatten out characters you don't favor into one dimensional in exchange for one dimensional ones(Leliana,Wynne,Shale) is kind of weird.

 

Alistair doesn't betray you at the Landsmeet, if you go with Loghain for whatever reason you have and didn't approve of Alistair reaction. Unless you're the kind who can consider it a betrayal given that you're the player the savior of the day and your companions should put aside their demands and follow you all the way throw, it can be implied to anyone really and it make sense...I mean you "the player" can always rationalize your actions.

 

As for the warden carrying out what you call evil deeds in order to turn you're companions against you.....the status of this statement is questionable. The warden did many "evil" things, committed a massacre, deceived,dabbled in the dark arts of witchcraft and wizardry. Hell! even touched the face of desire, now that's naughty and kinky!

Define evil? define evil according to the grey wardens perspective....Objectively the warden is evil and it's alright in situations like this including a war on two fronts Blight/civil and i don't mind it actually i encourage it. Give me fiery eyes and a trident and i'll cheer your name.

[Qun00]

I just would like to point out what a disgusting hypocrite Alistair is and his inability to notice his own flaws.

He says swooping is bad and yet he swept the Warden off her feet.

[sylvanaerie]

I just would like to point out what a disgusting hypocrite Alistair is and his inability to notice his own flaws.

He says swooping is bad and yet he swept the Warden off her feet.

 

LOL and that's the only line Steve Valentine admits he can remember too.

[Qun00]

I hope he just meant the dialogue itself rather than "I can barely remember anything about this character. All I know is that I've played him before".

[sylvanaerie]

I hope he just meant the dialogue itself rather than "I can barely remember anything about this character. All I know is that I've played him before".

 

A dialogue thing like "I get stopped by people quoting the character and I smile and pretend I know what they're talking about."  It was posted on the thread a few months ago, but here's the Utube link.

 

[Qun00]

Yep, it's one of those cases where the character is just another job. Nothing about it really stood out for him, aside from the fans still bringing up the subject.

[ThomasBlaine]

I had an unpleasant surprise when I recently replayed Origins as a female Warden and thought I'd be romancing Alistair. Maybe I'm the one who's changed since I last played the game, but I never realized how whiny, hypocritical, irrational and just plain stupid he is.

 

He kept tearing up about Duncan - whom I have very mixed feelings about after thinking about the battle of Ostagar and the circumstances of my recruitment - and expecting me to baby him, childishly second-guessing me after refusing any responsibility himself to the point where I couldn't even think of him as a second in command, and, of course, making lots of stupid jokes instead of actually communicating and giving honest input. From the Battle of Ostagar and onward there wasn't a single moment where I felt like he had my back.

 

I'm not a woman myself, and he's obviously handsome and physically strong and has a claim to the throne, but wouldn't this kind of behavior be really unattractive and instantly make him dump-material in real life?

[Qun00]

And somehow you thought this was the proper place to talk about why you don't like Alistair.

Interesting.

[GoldenGail3]

I had an unpleasant surprise when I recently replayed Origins as a female Warden and thought I'd be romancing Alistair. Maybe I'm the one who's changed since I last played the game, but I never realized how whiny, hypocritical, irrational and just plain stupid he is.

 

He kept tearing up about Duncan - whom I have very mixed feelings about after thinking about the battle of Ostagar and the circumstances of my recruitment - and expecting me to baby him, childishly second-guessing me after refusing any responsibility himself to the point where I couldn't even think of him as a second in command, and, of course, making lots of stupid jokes instead of actually communicating and giving honest input. From the Battle of Ostagar and onward there wasn't a single moment where I felt like he had my back.

 

I'm not a woman myself, and he's obviously handsome and physically strong and has a claim to the throne, but wouldn't this kind of behavior be really unattractive and instantly make him dump-material in real life?

 

Nope, not for me. I romanced him and then married him.

 

LOL, wrong place to put this post.    

[ThomasBlaine]

And somehow you thought this was the proper place to talk about why you don't like Alistair.

Interesting.

 

Nope, not for me. I romanced him and then married him.

 

LOL, wrong place to put this post.    

 

I'm not saying I don't like him, but it seems that women find some of his traits unattractive in real men, to the point of being deal-breakers even. Which is why I'm asking. Maybe it came off a bit too much as a rant, I really get into it when I roleplay, but I'm genuinely curious and this actually seemed like the perfect place to ask.

[GoldenGail3]

I'm not saying I don't like him, but it seems that women find some of his traits unattractive in real men, to the point of being deal-breakers even. Which is why I'm asking. Maybe it came off a bit too much as a rant, I really get into it when I roleplay, but I'm genuinely curious and this actually seemed like the perfect place to ask.

 

  He's awkward, snarky, and his romance is like fluff. Plus he's a pretty boy, too. All of those attractive the masses of my female Wardens to his front door. 

[gottaloveme]

I'm  not really sure why people think Alistair   is whiny. I certainly don't equate grief and shock with whining. He certainly doesn't follow people around camp bleating about his misfortunes. He has almost permanent foot in mouth but is so charming about it that it doesn't annoy. He's more likely to have several women (and men) around him trying to get his foot out. I see him as a strong one and a deep one. Oh Lordy, I just can't even talk about him without going gooey.

 

If it's whiny you want, why then, Jowan's your man.

[ThomasBlaine]

  He's awkward, snarky, and his romance is like fluff. Plus he's a pretty boy, too. All of those attractive the masses of my female Wardens to his front door. 

 

So him leaving absolutely everything to you and refusing to make any decisions himself even though he's your superior officer and has six months of experience on you doesn't make him... well... irresponsible and pathetic in your opinion? Would you find that attractive in a real man?

 

 

I'm  not really sure why people think Alistair   is whiny. I certainly don't equate grief and shock with whining.

 

If it's whiny you want, why then, Jowan's your man.

 

He has over a hundred times more dialogue about losing his father figure and friends of about half a year than you can have about losing your entire family, wealth and ancestral lands and being pressed into service on pain of death, which barely merits a single comment from him if it comes up at all. The two events happen weeks apart at the most.

 

And honestly, Jowan and Alistair have pretty much the same demeanor barring all the insecure jokes.

[GoldenGail3]

So him leaving absolutely everything to you and refusing to make any decisions himself even though he's your superior officer and has six months of experience on you doesn't make him... well... irresponsible and pathetic in your opinion? Would you find that attractive in a real man?

 

 

You know, DAO wouldn't be a game where you were the main PC if he had a dominating personality over you. So yeah, i suppose i like men like Alistair that are head over heals in love with me. 

[ThomasBlaine]

You know, DAO wouldn't be a game where you were the main PC if he had a dominating personality over you. So yeah, i suppose i like men like Alistair that are head over heals in love with me. 

 

It's one thing that he doesn't try to dominate, but he never even offers moral support or asks you how you're dealing with it all or tries to make the burden easier on you by at least taking some charge, while he basically treats you as his own personal therapist for much of his dialogue. In fact he criticizes you for not making the whole Connor mess turn out perfectly the way he'd have liked it even if you actually follow his advice every step of the way.

 

And that's after he makes you the main person responsible for saving the country even though it's his job. Completely regardless of whether or not he's in love with you, which he incidentally is not until you've flattered and babied him for a good long while, getting practically nothing in return. And every single time you stand up to him he starts sulking or getting angry, sometimes to the point of insulting you, even if you're perfectly in the right.

[GoldenGail3]

It's one thing that he doesn't try to dominate, but he never even offers moral support or asks you how you're dealing with it all or tries to make the burden easier on you by at least taking some charge, while he basically treats you as his own personal therapist for much of his dialogue. In fact he criticizes you for not making the whole Connor mess turn out perfectly the way he'd have liked it even if you actually follow his advice every step of the way.
 
And that's after he makes you the main person responsible for saving the country even though it's his job. Completely regardless of whether or not he's in love with you, which he incidentally is not until you've flattered and babied him for a good long while, getting practically nothing in return. And every single time you stand up to him he starts sulking or getting angry, sometimes to the point of insulting you, even if you're perfectly in the right.

That's becuae he cares deeply for his family, and the family he grew up with. Which happens to be the Guerrins. He even refreces to Teagan as his uncle. Yeah, he was raised to not rule, and that's why he doesn't like to lead. Is because he's a bastard prince who's mother happens to be an elven Mage Grey Warden. So yeah, that's why he's so passive about leading in general, as an Unhardend Alistair.

And your comforting him, while your romancing him. And what did you do to get that reaction out of him? Kill Connor? Kill Isolde? And Alistair is a Woobie, so yeash, there's that. Respect the Woobie and you shall get something in return, on my case I made my Cousland become Queen of Ferelden while ruling besides him. You do get something in return if your a Female Cousland, I suppose.

[ThomasBlaine]

That's becuae he cares deeply for his family, and the family he grew up with. Which happens to be the Guerrins. He even refreces to Teagan as his uncle. Yeah, he was raised to not rule, and that's why he doesn't like to lead. Is because he's a bastard prince who's mother happens to be an elven Mage Grey Warden. So yeah, that's why he's so passive about leading in general, as an Unhardend Alistair.

And your comforting him, while your romancing him. And what did you do to get that reaction out of him? Kill Connor? Kill Isolde? And Alistair is a Woobie, so yeash, there's that. Respect the Woobie and you shall get something in return, on my case I made my Cousland become Queen of Ferelden while ruling besides him. You do get something in return if your a Female Cousland, I suppose.

 

And what, the Cousland protagonist didn't care about his/her family or deserve support dealing with his/her grief? Much less the pressure Alistair personally put on him/her because he couldn't handle any himself? Also technically, any Cousland has a much stronger claim to the throne than an unacknowledged and undocumented bastard of Maric does. Didn't you notice that the arrangement of the marriage is Eamon using you to validate Alistair's claim? The entire romance is all take, no give.

 

And all I did was go to Redcliffe first, as per Alistair's recommendation, refuse to let Jowan perform the ritual, as per Alistair's recommendation, go to the circle tower looking for help, eradicate the remaining circle mages, as per Alistair's recommendation, return to Redcliffe and take the only remaining option that Alistair didn't vocally disapprove of and which was consistent with his earlier insistence on killing abominations. And then he waits until we're alone at camp and gets in my face for not having magically fixed everything without bloodshed and runs away sulking even if I sugar-coat it for him without ever calling him on his hypocrisy or the fact that he was there every step of the way and never objected to what I was doing until way after the fact. Genius.

[Qun00]

I'm  not really sure why people think Alistair   is whiny. I certainly don't equate grief and shock with whining. He certainly doesn't follow people around camp bleating about his misfortunes. He has almost permanent foot in mouth but is so charming about it that it doesn't annoy. He's more likely to have several women (and men) around him trying to get his foot out. I see him as a strong one and a deep one. Oh Lordy, I just can't even talk about him without going gooey.
 
If it's whiny you want, why then, Jowan's your man.

He's a woobie, as Gaider put it.

[theskymoves]

The Alistair Gush Thread... where the 'I don't dislike Alistair BUT...' axes are ground and related deceased equines are bludgeoned, endlessly.