39002 réponses à ce sujet

[luna1124]

^^ I know.. it's more like the Alistair "Bash" thread ^^

[Yaroub]

He has over a hundred times more dialogue about losing his father figure and friends of about half a year than you can have about losing your entire family, wealth and ancestral lands and being pressed into service on pain of death, which barely merits a single comment from him if it comes up at all. The two events happen weeks apart at the most.

 

It's natural that he display shock and grief losing all whom he cared about. You're missing the point here, the processes is you listening to your companions problems and complains rather than you telling them yours.

 

Talking to Alistiar after the battle at Ostagar he mourns Duncan and his comrades, then a few dialogues later you inquire about the Grey Wardens(given you're one yourself and the game revolves around them) Alistair explain what he knew and experienced during his time with them. Take for example when he mentions that drunken Anders warden...Grigor or something, he's telling how great folks they were a few funny lines then Duncan comes "swooping" on them..The trauma hits him again as the memory of Duncan's death is still fresh, it's standard behavior when someone loses the one they cherish the most.

 

It's one thing that he doesn't try to dominate, but he never even offers moral support or asks you how you're dealing with it all or tries to make the burden easier on you by at least taking some charge.

 

And what, the Cousland protagonist didn't care about his/her family or deserve support dealing with his/her grief? Much less the pressure Alistair personally put on him/her because he couldn't handle any himself?

 

No one offers what you seek, it's simply the game setting. You "the player" experienced your tragedy in the Cousland origins and moved on, You know it thus you don't need to retell it to yourself. your companions story is blank, you investigate about it and you fill it.

 

The game gives you a good space to determine your pov on matters and even to manipulate your companions to share your view. Better use it.

 

It's odd that you complain about whining yet you crave it the most!

 

 

while he basically treats you as his own personal therapist for much of his dialogue.

 

As most of the companions dialogue....Except Sten, but then again he's powered by "certainty"

 

 

And that's after he makes you the main person responsible for saving the country even though it's his job.

 

No it's not.

 

 

which he incidentally is not until you've flattered and babied him for a good long while, getting practically nothing in return.

 

You get to become queen. That's a mighty reward in my opinion.

 

 

any Cousland has a much stronger claim to the throne than an unacknowledged and undocumented bastard of Maric does.

 

No they don't.

[Qun00]

You know, there is a number of reasons why I made Alistair the king.

1. That way he's the one who delivers the speech before the battle of Denerim. Honestly, Anora wasn't involved or concerned about the Blight until 5 minutes ago, so she doesn't belong there.

2. I like the way he mentions my Dalish Warden when Merril asks him about the land given in DAO. "I'll try to make up to your people. I owe an old friend too much to do otherwise".

3. He gets to meet his mother in Inquisition, even if she doesn't reveal herself.

4. Not having to choose between him and Hawke.

But recently I started a new game and talked to Alistair in Ostagar. He says one of the reasons why Duncan is important to him is that he was the first person who's ever cared about what he wanted. That made me question my decision.

How do you guys feel about the King Alistair vs Warden Alistair choice?

[luna1124]

I have done both (King and Warden). I let Hawke live once in DAI and Alistair once.

[gottaloveme]

When I play Origins then Alistair is King.

 

In the Landsmeet he will tell you 'no don't make Anora Queen'. Also if you harden him he becomes more amenable to the idea. Probably not his first choice, but he thinks he will do a good job and then seriously puts his mind to it.

 

When I play Inquisition then Alistair is the warden.   I have no problem leaving Hawke in the fade. Sorry Varric. Alistair is the one who sits the throne in my Fereldan, game-playing, little heart.

 

Spoiler

After saying that I think I need a beer.

[gottaloveme]

The Alistair Gush Thread... where the 'I don't dislike Alistair BUT...' axes are ground and related deceased equines are bludgeoned, endlessly.

 

Isn't this the opportunity to make popcorn? Num, num, num.

[theskymoves]

Isn't this the opportunity to make popcorn? Num, num, num.

 

Either popcorn, or a really stiff drink.

[GoldenGail3]

Either popcorn, or a really stiff drink.

 

I'll join you. Maybe an ice-cream shake and some popcorn on hand, and i'll be set. 

[kimgoold]

When I play Origins then Alistair is King.

 

In the Landsmeet he will tell you 'no don't make Anora Queen'. Also if you harden him he becomes more amenable to the idea. Probably not his first choice, but he thinks he will do a good job and then seriously puts his mind to it.

 

When I play Inquisition then Alistair is the warden.   I have no problem leaving Hawke in the fade. Sorry Varric. Alistair is the one who sits the throne in my Fereldan, game-playing, little heart.

 

Spoiler

After saying that I think I need a beer.

Sadly Hawke bites the bullet every game, no way I'm sacrificing Alistair. But I do make him King every time in DAO (despise Anora) yet he's always a warden in DAI. Anything to have more Ali time.

[Qun00]

Sadly Hawke bites the bullet every game, no way I'm sacrificing Alistair. But I do make him King every time in DAO (despise Anora) yet he's always a warden in DAI. Anything to have more Ali time.

That makes absolutely no sense, unless you mean there is no continuity in your PTs.

[kimgoold]

I don't claim any consistency at all, I just play each game as a separate entity for maximum Alistair screen time. But in canon I have Ali as King.

[Qun00]

So, does hardened Alistair decide that he wants to be king on his own or does he merely accept it?

[sylvanaerie]

So, does hardened Alistair decide that he wants to be king on his own or does he merely accept it?

 

Alistair still doesn't want to be king, he'd much rather be just a GW.  He just accepts it.  If he duels Loghain and you aren't a HNF he accepts it after Loghain is dead without any input from the PC.

 

Later, you can talk to him and he seems a lot less resentful of things, thinking he'll get used to it, and feels confident he will learn to be a good king, but he's actually so damn grateful if you don't make him king, there's no mistaking the difference between the 2.

 

If I made him king, my warden would stick around to help him.  I don't trust Eamon.

[ThomasBlaine]

It's natural that he display shock and grief losing all whom he cared about. You're missing the point here, the processes is you listening to your companions problems and complains rather than you telling them yours.

 

Talking to Alistiar after the battle at Ostagar he mourns Duncan and his comrades, then a few dialogues later you inquire about the Grey Wardens(given you're one yourself and the game revolves around them) Alistair explain what he knew and experienced during his time with them. Take for example when he mentions that drunken Anders warden...Grigor or something, he's telling how great folks they were a few funny lines then Duncan comes "swooping" on them..The trauma hits him again as the memory of Duncan's death is still fresh, it's standard behavior when someone loses the one they cherish the most.

 

 

 

No one offers what you seek, it's simply the game setting. You "the player" experienced your tragedy in the Cousland origins and moved on, You know it thus you don't need to retell it to yourself. your companions story is blank, you investigate about it and you fill it.

 

The game gives you a good space to determine your pov on matters and even to manipulate your companions to share your view. Better use it.

 

It's odd that you complain about whining yet you crave it the most!

 

 

 

As most of the companions dialogue....Except Sten, but then again he's powered by "certainty"

 

 

 

No it's not.

 

 

 

You get to become queen. That's a mighty reward in my opinion.

 

 

 

No they don't.

 

None of that changes the facts, Alistair's romance is mostly him talking about his recent loss, which is absolutely minor compared to yours if you're a Cousland, and falling in love with you if you coddle and comfort him without ever confronting him about his hypocrisies or delusions. Leliana at least just has an existential crisis, and Morrigan - whom nobody would expect to sympathize with anyone - actually sympathizes with you for having lost your mother. I'm not saying that I want to be able to whine, just that the relationship with Alistair is completely unbalanced from a realistic standpoint and that a protagonist who doesn't want to be treated as his mother might want to look elsewhere for romance.

 

And yes, as your senior officer it's his job to take charge of the quest, making him negligent of his duty for refusing to do so in addition to making him a deserter if he becomes king or runs away to the Free Marches. And yes, a Cousland is a descendant of Calenhad too and your position as the proper child of a Teyrn makes you the only person besides Loghain, Anora and later Fergus to be eligible as monarch, while Alistair's claim is technically illegal and supported only by Eamon's say-so and his marriage to you or Anora if you so choose.

[sylvanaerie]

None of that changes the facts, Alistair's romance is mostly him talking about his recent loss, which is absolutely minor compared to yours if you're a Cousland, and falling in love with you if you coddle and comfort him without ever confronting him about his hypocrisies or delusions. Leliana at least just has an existential crisis, and Morrigan - whom nobody would expect to sympathize with anyone - actually sympathizes with you for having lost your mother. I'm not saying that I want to be able to whine, just that the relationship with Alistair is completely unbalanced from a realistic standpoint and that a protagonist who doesn't want to be treated as his mother might want to look elsewhere for romance.

 

And yes, as your senior officer it's his job to take charge of the quest, making him negligent of his duty for refusing to do so in addition to making him a deserter if he becomes king or runs away to the Free Marches. And yes, a Cousland is a descendant of Calenhad too and your position as the proper child of a Teyrn makes you the only person besides Loghain, Anora and later Fergus to be eligible as monarch, while Alistair's claim is technically illegal and supported only by Eamon's say-so and his marriage to you or Anora if you so choose.

 

Wow I realize the game is up to interpretation, but you're so off base in your assumptions, I have to wonder if you even played the same game as the rest of us.  

Alistair is the only reason a HNF gets to be queen.  Suck it up, Bucky, his claim--and Anora's for that matter--is more legitimate than the Cousland's, or else the PC could just declare himself/herself ruler instead of needing Anora or Alistair to rule.  So Alistair's rule is no more 'illegal' than Anora's, it's up to the Landsmeet to determine who will be the next legitimate king/queen.

 

Did you even do his romance at all?  Most of it involves talking about his childhood, not Duncan.  Most of the Duncan dialogues happen regardless of romance or not--ie it's not the side content dialogues, it's the standard ones.  And most of those conversations are early in the relationship, meaning unless you bumped up his approvals with items and unlocked the romance ridiculously early, he should be mostly done by the time you actually start the flirtations.  He actually shifts the focus of his grief (which is still there) to his growing affections for the lady warden.  Time heals.

 

Every NPC with the solitary exception of Wynne pretty much ignores your loss.  If you press it, (in a conversation outside Lothering right before entering the town) Alistair sites duty and Morrigan actually calls you stupid for not seeing how pointless it is to try to search for Fergus.  The ai doesn't give your PC the ability to whine and complain about your loss (and every origin experiences some kind of trauma, not just the Cousland), and the only one who asks after what brought you to the wardens in the first place is Wynne.  An entire conversation is dedicated to how you feel about it, and her encouraging you that things will get better.  It's the player's job apparently to act as personal shrink to all the companions with the exception of the elder mage.  Even then, Wynne has an old issue you can help with, though she doesn't make a big deal of it until it looks like she may get closure after all.

 

Now I will grant you deserter name fits the drunken Alistair scenario.  He pretty much makes that choice himself, but being king, that wasn't his choice, (unless you have him duel Loghain in a hardened mode).  If you put him on the throne (and it's the player, not the ai putting him there), you can't very well blame him for deserting when he's right there, he hasn't gone anywhere, he's still king and he still fights off the Blight with you, can even die if that's your choice.  Only if he's king with Loghain alive can the descriptive 'deserter' somewhat fit since he refuses to have anything to do with the general.

 

And if Alistair had been the more 'take charge' type they had at first going to go with, people would have been on the forums bitching about how you never get to make any choices in the game, you always just get told what to do by Alistair.  Imagine the flamestorm of angry players that would have created.

[theskymoves]

IIRC and I'd need to check the toolset to be 100% certain, but apart from the forced dialogues at Flemeth's Hut and Morrigan baiting him in Lothering, the other conversations re Duncan and the Wardens are completely optional and player initiated... as in, if the player doesn't ask him, Alistair can't/doesn't talk about it. (Oh, there might be a banter with Wynne, too... I'm fuzzy on that because when Wynne starts yammering I stop listening.)

 

As for whether Alistair or Anora has a more legitimate claim on the throne... their claims carry exactly the same weight, as would the claim of any other Fereldan who put their name forward. There is no hereditary monarchy, the throne is filled by election in the Landsmeet. And the Landsmeet has a distinct and longstanding preference for filling the seat with a descendent of Calenhad.

 

And finally, Alistair is not the 'senior officer' of the Warden. He's a Grey Warden with the same rank and slightly more tenure.

[Qun00]

Alistair still doesn't want to be king, he'd much rather be just a GW.  He just accepts it.  If he duels Loghain and you aren't a HNF he accepts it after Loghain is dead without any input from the PC.
 
Later, you can talk to him and he seems a lot less resentful of things, thinking he'll get used to it, and feels confident he will learn to be a good king, but he's actually so damn grateful if you don't make him king, there's no mistaking the difference between the 2.
 
If I made him king, my warden would stick around to help him.  I don't trust Eamon.

Even if I didn't make him king, I still would harden Alistair. He's always struggled with lack of confidence in himself.

[cJohnOne]

In some of my earlier playrhroughs I thought hardening Alistair would ruin his character.

[Qun00]

In some of my earlier playrhroughs I thought hardening Alistair would ruin his character.

It must've felt good to be wrong, then.

[BevH]

It must've felt good to be wrong, then.

It wasn't so much wrong, at least not for me. The choice to harden him to life seemed very harsh. That's why I didn't take it my first time.

[springacres]

It wasn't so much wrong, at least not for me. The choice to harden him to life seemed very harsh. That's why I didn't take it my first time.

For me it was more that the dialogue line I had to choose to harden him just didn't feel like something my character would say.  (This was before I had discovered IRS-Alistair, which tweaks the text so it makes more sense and feels more like something a friend would say - "You need to realize that people put themselves first" instead of the unmodded, "Everyone is out for themselves.")

[BevH]

For me it was more that the dialogue line I had to choose to harden him just didn't feel like something my character would say.  (This was before I had discovered IRS-Alistair, which tweaks the text so it makes more sense and feels more like something a friend would say - "You need to realize that people put themselves first" instead of the unmodded, "Everyone is out for themselves.")

That's my point. That line is... harsh. 

[Qun00]

It wasn't so much wrong, at least not for me. The choice to harden him to life seemed very harsh. That's why I didn't take it my first time.

The line is harsh, but the results are not.

The dialogue that seals the hardening doesn't have Alistair telling you about how bitter he feels or adopting a cynical world view.

He simply says he's gonna try to stand up for himself more often.

Personality wise, he still is the same wise cracking guy we know and love. I'd wager the idea of being blunt with him scared you off and then you never tried it.

[sylvanaerie]

The line is harsh, but the results are not.

The dialogue that seals the hardening doesn't have Alistair telling you about how bitter he feels or adopting a cynical world view.

He simply says he's gonna try to stand up for himself more often.

Personality wise, he still is the same wise cracking guy we know and love. I'd wager the idea of being blunt with him scared you off and then you never tried it.

 

Pretty much this the first time I played.  It is a pretty harsh thing to say, but you're right, he doesn't take it as it sounds.  He takes it as "I have to stand up for myself more".

[Xetykins]

 

 

He kept tearing up about Duncan -

 

 From the Battle of Ostagar and onward there wasn't a single moment where I felt like he had my back.

 

 

1. Well , I guess you're the one crying about Duncan when you talk to him, because that's mostly the only time I've heared him talk about him. If you know what his reaction would be about the death of the man who has pulled him out of becoming a lunatic lyrium gobbling plates-on-skirt, then dont ask.

 

2. Ohh yes he's got my back... (hind quarters) just ask Wynne