39010 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

Oh, and I get top. Figures, lol

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

With all due respect, I disagree about the cruelty of knifing Morrigan in the DLC.
/snip

And I agree with you. There might be reasons as to why some PCs would want her dead. Of course if the only reason is "because I don't like her", then it's petty. But there are valid reasons for trying to kill her, even if it's likely going to only ****** her off.

And if Morrigan turns out to be the only person who can defeat Flemeth, whom is the real threat, then that decision might be regarded in retrospect as the wrong one. But in the moment, you don't really know that and it depends on whether you trust her or not.

So while my canon would never do that, I can think imagine characters that would want to.  

KoP, you prove you are awesome again and again.

Modifié par phaonica, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[phaonica]

Gilsa wrote...

@Axekix -- I've said this a few times, but I'm not sure if you're catching it. I did not do the dark ritual.

Yeah, I'm the one who did the DR and still killed Morrigan. So, yeah...

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Axekix wrote...
I don't think it's really a matter of trust.  Morrigan has done nothing to harm you or any of your companions, made no threats to anyone, and if you did the DR, saved your life by means of a ritual you agreed to.  To be willing to gamble with her life and the life of her child based on absolutely nothing (and yes going into this DLC you have no proof of any misdeeds on Morrigan's part) isn't a valid reason as far as I'm concerned.

Gilsa already said she didn't do the DR. So she doesn't have the child in that case.
The decision can be based on a percieved attempt to manipulate you (I disagree that she tried to manipulate, but depends on perspective) and on withholding vital information and trying to do something that might be percieved as too dangerous (ritual, playing with Tevinter mirrors). Or that she might be working for Flemeth and is trying to trick you.  

I am not saying you are wrong nor am I trying to convince you of anything. A far as you are concerned, these are not valid reasons and that's ok. As far as others go, they can be seen as valid.
I would not choose that choice at all, but I recognise that some might have valid reasons to do so.

While I understand your position, validating  the execution of someone on unfounded suspicion alone is essentially taking the stance that they are guilty until proven innocent.  Ethically speaking that is considered an invalid argument.

Edit: also afk for ~an hour.  I am enjoying this convo though!

Modifié par Axekix, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

It dosent fit with any of my PC's to knife her in the guts like that.

Even my reformed Carta Thug would not do that.



Then again I dont do the DR in any of my games really, so I let Morri go do her thing like she was doing for the last year.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Gilsa already said she didn't do the DR. So she doesn't have the child in that case.
The decision can be based on a percieved attempt to manipulate you (I disagree that she tried to manipulate, but depends on perspective) and on withholding vital information and trying to do something that might be percieved as too dangerous (ritual, playing with Tevinter mirrors). Or that she might be working for Flemeth and is trying to trick you. 

You could simply regret having agreed to the DR, like maybe you helped unleash something that should have been kept under wraps, and feel like you need to put it right.  The Warden could have every intention of finding and killing the child too.

i also could never do it, but it's not a fluffy game.

[phaonica]

Lady Jess wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

@Axekix -- I've said this a few times, but I'm not sure if you're catching it. I did not do the dark ritual.

Actually I addressed that earlier as well.  If she doesn't have the God baby she's even less of a potential risk, which makes hunting her down and killing her even less plausible imo.

Or maybe not. One could think "hmm, she didn't get what she wanted from me, one she called a FRIEND yet was willing to lie and hide vitally important information from me to attempt to get it. What MORE is she willing to do to achieve her end, and to whom? and what happens to someone she doesn't consider a friend that refuses?"   In that case you could be thinking you've unleashed an angry (and she WAS very angry if refused) possible loose canon on potential innocent victims. How far  will she go to get what she wants? Better to end the threat now, than regret it later.

What does she say if you didn't do the DR? I've been tempted to make a runthrough just to find out. Does she still talk about heralding change or whatever? Or does she refuse to say anything at all?

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

You could simply regret having agreed to the DR, like maybe you helped unleash something that should have been kept under wraps, and feel like you need to put it right.  The Warden could have every intention of finding and killing the child too.

i also could never do it, but it's not a fluffy game.

You've described my warden, there, Addai.

[Sandtigress]

LadyJ, the Dalish mafia (and their pet shem) approve of your elf!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
While I understand your position, in order to validate executing someone on unfounded suspicion alone is essentially taking the stance that someone is essentially guilty until proven innocent.  Ethically speaking that is considered an invalid argument.

Since when ethics invalidated an argument? lol
Sorry, I think you worded it wrong. You can say that your ethical beliefs make this choice unappealing at all or even revolting. But to say ethics renders an argument invalid? Meeh.
 
Morrigan is neither clearly innocent nor clearly guilty. But she can be seen as dangerous. Trying to use spirits of Old Gods. Playing with Tevinter mirrors that for all you know might have caused the darkspawn disaster. Promising change to the world to supposedely set it free, and that for all you know, could be a catastrophe (and some of Morrigan's choices / what she approves of in Origins could be a subject of concern). 

It's not like Morrigan was sitting all innocent, playign with her kid and not wanting to do anything and you go there and stab her. She is obviously trying to do something. It ends up on whether you trust her with what she is doing (that is potentially very dangerous), or not.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
You could simply regret having agreed to the DR, like maybe you helped unleash something that should have been kept under wraps, and feel like you need to put it right.  The Warden could have every intention of finding and killing the child too.

i also could never do it, but it's not a fluffy game.

Yea, sure. Valid position to take.

[Lady Jess]

phaonica wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

@Axekix -- I've said this a few times, but I'm not sure if you're catching it. I did not do the dark ritual.

Actually I addressed that earlier as well.  If she doesn't have the God baby she's even less of a potential risk, which makes hunting her down and killing her even less plausible imo.

Or maybe not. One could think "hmm, she didn't get what she wanted from me, one she called a FRIEND yet was willing to lie and hide vitally important information from me to attempt to get it. What MORE is she willing to do to achieve her end, and to whom? and what happens to someone she doesn't consider a friend that refuses?"   In that case you could be thinking you've unleashed an angry (and she WAS very angry if refused) possible loose canon on potential innocent victims. How far  will she go to get what she wants? Better to end the threat now, than regret it later.

What does she say if you didn't do the DR? I've been tempted to make a runthrough just to find out. Does she still talk about heralding change or whatever? Or does she refuse to say anything at all?

Both. She yells at you for refusing her, then refuses to answer anything at all, then heralding change etc etc.

[Lady Jess]

Sandtigress wrote...

LadyJ, the Dalish mafia (and their pet shem) approve of your elf!

Yay!! Ohhh do I get to...I mean a pet Shem too??

[Giggles_Manically]

So is that photoshop, save editing, or ENCHANTMENT at work to get the Dalish Mafia there?

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Axekix wrote...
While I understand your position, in order to validate executing someone on unfounded suspicion alone is essentially taking the stance that someone is essentially guilty until proven innocent.  Ethically speaking that is considered an invalid argument.

Since when ethics invalidated an argument? lol
Sorry, I think you worded it wrong. You can say that your ethical beliefs make this choice unappealing at all or even revolting. But to say ethics renders an argument invalid? Meeh.

I think you misunderstood.  Ethical validity has nothing to do with personal beliefs in this instance.  The study of ethics is tied to logical arguments and or fallacies.  Assuming guilt and acting on it without proof is not ethically valid.
 

It's not like Morrigan was sitting all innocent, playign with her kid and not wanting to do anything and you go there and stab her. She is obviously trying to do something. It ends up on whether you trust her with what she is doing (that is potentially very dangerous), or not.  

Justifying murder over mistrust with no proof is a tough sell.  Even if she turns out to be some kind of great evil, she doesn't give enough indication in game to warrant killing her.

AFK for real this time!

Modifié par Axekix, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So is that photoshop, save editing, or ENCHANTMENT at work to get the Dalish Mafia there?

I believe that is ZevRon (Zevran with Ron F. Mahariel morph) and Leliana As Elf mod with a Ronkarisha (yukidama's PC) morph.

That picture is just so wrong, even though it's cool.  LOL

[Zjarcal]

To be honest that Dalish mafia pic gives me the creeps. It also scares me quite a bit... they really look menacing!



Seriously, it's epic.

[Addai]

Actually now that I recall, I believe that's yuki's shot so Ronkarisha is the only "real" one there and Kara (Sandi's PC on the right) is the selfcestuous zombie morph apparition.  :happy:

Modifié par Addai67, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:09 .

[mellifera]

Sandtigress wrote...

LadyJ, the Dalish mafia (and their pet shem) approve of your elf!

Never gets old :'3

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So is that photoshop, save editing, or ENCHANTMENT at work to get the Dalish Mafia there?

I believe that is ZevRon (Zevran with Ron F. Mahariel morph) and Leliana As Elf mod with a Ronkarisha (yukidama's PC) morph.

That picture is just so wrong, even though it's cool.  LOL

Almost!  It's Leliana as Elf mod with a Kara (my PC) morph - Ronkarisha is the only real PC in that picture. 

It is, L to R, Ronkarisha (yuki's PC), Alistair, Ron (SurelyForth's PC) and my Kara that makes up the original Dalish mafia!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
I think you misunderstood.  Ethical validity has nothing to do with personal beliefs in this instance.  The study of ethics is tied to logical arguments and or fallacies.  Assuming guilt and acting on it without proof is not ethically valid.

You do realise that the "study of ethics" has several ethical schools of thoughts and philosophies that all say different things? There is no universally applicable "ethical validity".
Kantian ethics would reject the choice. Utilitarians, they might accept it. Consequentialists, depends on the results....etc etc

And it's not like Morrigan is the example of what an "ethical person" should be like anyways.    

Axekix wrote...
Justifying murder over mistrust with no proof is a tough sell.  Even if she turns out to be some kind of great evil, she doesn't give enough indication in game to warrant killing her.

When someone is dabbling in things that you rightfully consider extremily dangerous, and when you have seen what that same person doesn't mind doing, then you can be very concerned with allowing her to get power and do whatever it is she is planing on doing. So you can preempt and not wait till a disaster happens that might claim many lives.

I am not trying to sell you this at all btw. I simply like playing devil's advocate.
You can find the choice utterly revolting and I am not saying you are wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TheGrumpyOne wrote...

People keep using the wrong terms, like murder and kill for the final scene with Morrigan in WH. You only get given the option to attack Morrigan, unlike Origins where you can "kill" the prisoner and soldier (Those are just two examples.) David Gaider said Morrigan and Flemeth are two of the most important characters in thedas, they both tie into a long story arc. I wonder how the WH will affect Morrigan in the third game? David did say recently that this DLC is not an ending for Morrigan.

Yea but when you actually pick that option, the character wants to kill her. Unless you rp someone who just wants to stab her and not kill her for....some reason.

But yes, she doesn't die. But the act of attacking her can be seen as attempted murder.

[phaonica]

Axekix wrote...

Even if she turns out to be some kind of great evil, she doesn't give enough indication in game to warrant killing her.

It was my perception of her 'heralding change' speech that bothered me the most. She was talking about changing the world against the world's will. That the world would fight it, but that they would come to see it was for the best. I couldn't help but think that the Architect had something similar in mind, on more than one occasion, and I didn't like him, either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd like to add that arguing for killing Morrigan is much harder than I thought...

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[mellifera]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd like to add that arguing for killing Morrigan is much harder than I thought...

Lol, now you know how we feel