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[Axekix]

phaonica wrote...

Axekix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Axekix wrote...

You speak as if I made that choice. I trust her.
Does that mean everyone else should?

It's not really an issue of trust though.  Her plans could just as easily be beneficial to the world.  We have little indication either way.  If you kill her (not you  personally but anyone who choses to) simply because you don't trust her, you are victimizing her.  That's not something easily justified.

I'm curious to know if you killed Flemeth or not, and whether or not you find that to be justified.

I have killed Flemeth.  As for whether it is justified... it is something I tend to grapple with.    It is different from the Morrigan situation in that you have a direct charge against her, (and if you believe Morrigan) you have proof.  At the same time she is someone who has saved your life and helped you escape Ostagar. 

I don't recall the entire conversation off the top of my head but I do remember asking her for the truth and being laughed off.  She doesn't contest Morrigan's claims, though she does hint that they may be incorrect.

It's a tough decision, but if you believe Morrigan's claim (I did) then I think it can be justified, in that you are saying you believe she will attempt to kill Morrigan in the future.  Also you go into it knowing you're not really killing her, which makes a difference.

But other than what Morrigan claims, there is no proof that Flemeth has any intention of what Morrigan accuses her of. There is no proof that Flemeth intends any harm at all. You are basing your actions entirely upon whether or not you trust Morrigan, and that includes whether or not you trust that you are really killing Flemeth.

Well there is the grimoire, though you only get the information from it through Morrigan.  Still if you believe she is credible that is fairly solid proof.  If not, then no, killing her wouldn't really be justified.  I do recall in the conversation when Flemeth asks if you'll let her go, you can ask her why you would do so (or something to that effect) and she says that you can keep Morrigan, for a time.  That does imply that she is in fact planning on doing something to her, and with her refusal to rebuke any of Morrigan's claims I think you have fair cause to stop her. 

And again you go in knowing you aren't actually killing her.  Morrigan tells you as much if you ask beforehand.

Modifié par Axekix, 10 septembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Not to mention that I'm also secretly one of your minions, so I prefer to bow before your greatness! 

KoP minion sig, or it  didn't happen  jk jk

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Not to mention that I'm also secretly one of your minions, so I prefer to bow before your greatness! 

KoP minion sig, or it  didn't happen  jk jk

But it has to remain a secret! The sig would give it away! 

[Merilsell]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And once again, it all falls down to trust. If you don't trust Morrigan, you have little reason to believe her "evidence" that only she can read.

Ha, Shale always knew. No wonder because she is sheer awesomeness. <3

• Shale: I understand the swamp witch is out to slay its own mother?
• Morrigan: Entirely in self-defense.
• Shale: So it claims. It could not have been its plan from the very beginning, then.
• Morrigan: I knew nothing about my mother's... intentions... prior to finding the book. 'Twas your notion I arranged that?
• Shale: Unnecessary, considering it is the only one who can read the book. It could just as well be a journal, or a book of recipes.
• Morrigan: Would you like me to teach you how to read the book? Then you can see for yourself.
  Shale: (Snorts) Now it is testing me.
• Morrigan: (Chuckles) Well do you care enough to learn, or no?
• Shale: No. I do not care.
• Morrigan: Then leave me be.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
But it has to remain a secret! The sig would give it away! 

That's true. I've always wanted to have my very own underground secretive movement.

[Merilsell]

And now we focus on things important and on-topic again, yes?



Belated smut-offering to distr---- oooh shiny...

[phaonica]

Axekix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
But other than what Morrigan claims, there is no proof that Flemeth has any intention of what Morrigan accuses her of. There is no proof that Flemeth intends any harm at all. You are basing your actions entirely upon whether or not you trust Morrigan, and that includes whether or not you trust that you are really killing Flemeth.

Well there is the grimoire, though you only get the information from it through Morrigan.  Still if you believe she is credible that is fairly solid proof.  If not, then no, killing her wouldn't really be justified.  I do recall in the conversation when Flemeth asks if you'll let her go, you can ask her why you would do so (or something to that effect) and she says that you can keep Morrigan, for a time.  That does imply that she is in fact planning on doing something to her, and with her refusal to rebuke any of Morrigan's claims I think you have fair cause to stop her. 

So if you believe that Morrigan is credible, it's okay to kill Flemeth, even though Flemeth has actually done nothing to warrant the attack, all based on whether or not you trust Morrigan.

Futhermore, you're saying that you don't trust Flemeth, based on the fact that she gives you the runaround when you are trying to get answers from her, she makes ominous-sounding implications (she doesn't even claim she wants to do Morrigan any harm, she just *sounds ominous*), even though she hasn't actually done anything bad.

So if I say that I don't trust Morrigan, based on the fact that she gives me the runaround when I am trying to get answers from her, she makes ominous implications, but hasn't actually done anything bad. How is that any different from killing Flemeth based on the fact that you don't trust her, despite that she hasn't done anything?

And again you go in knowing you aren't actually killing her.  Morrigan tells you as much if you ask beforehand.

And again, you don't *know* you aren't actually killing her. You are trusting that Morrigan is telling you the truth, but you don't know.

[errant_knight]

Discussing Anora....

[OfficerDonNZ]

I have a question for everyone. What happens at the landsmeet to Anora if your're HNF who's romanced Alistair, hardened him and going to marry him? Dose she still get locked up in the tower? I don't think I have a save earily enough to find out as I'm a bit of a softy and don't harden him.

[Zjarcal]

I think she always ends up locked in the tower if she's not made queen. Alistair will never call for her execution.

[OfficerDonNZ]

Bugger.


This may sound odd but what's the differnace between hardened Alistair and unhardend? I guess I should harden him one of these days to find out!

Modifié par OfficerDonNZ, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[errant_knight]

I don't think we can assume that a hardened Alistair doesn't execute her. We aren't told, but while unhardened Alistair is taken aback at the idea of having her executed, hardened Alistair sends her to the tower specifically as an insurance policy in case he's killed fighting the archdemon. If he survives, he may or may not execute her, we don't know. The reason for imprisoning her is gone, and he wouldn't let her go without a promise of fealty, which Anora seems unwilling to give. He doesn't seem intrinsically against it, but he may want to keep her around until he has, or decides on, an heir. Or she may capitulate and swear fealty. Again, we don't know.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Zjarcal]

Hardened Alistair grows a spine and will begin to stand up for himself. He takes a different view of Anora, growing very reluctant to the idea of her being Queen.



He also will be less disgusted by the idea of being King. If you make him do the duel with Loghain, he'll take the crown immediately with no further intervention from anyone (I believe there are a couple of cases in which he won't do this but I don't which ones they are). Once he's King, he won't be mad at the player for having made him King.



Also, hardened Alistair will be willing to keep a non-HNF partner as his mistress, even if he's marrying Anora.



Finally, hardened Alistair is willing to marry Anora if you spare Loghain (provided you had arranged the marriage before the Landsmeet). This is the only way you can spare Loghain and prevent Alistair from being executed or becoming a wandering drunk.

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

I don't think we can assume that a hardened Alistair doesn't execute her. We aren't told, but while unhardened Alistair is taken aback at the idea of having her executed, hardened Alistair sends her to the tower specifically as an insurance policy in case he's killed fighting the archdemon. If he survives, he may or may not execute her, we don't know. The reason for imprisoning her is gone, and he wouldn't let her go without a promise of fealty, which Anora seems unwilling to give. He doesn't seem intrinsically against it, but he may want to keep her around until he has, or decides on. an heir. Or she may capitulate and swear fealty. Again. we don't know.

Interesting. I didn't know hardened Alistair expressed a reason for locking up Anora. The dude really shines when hardened, eh?

[errant_knight]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Bugger.


This may sound odd but what's the differnace between hardened Alistair and unhardend? I guess I should harden him one of these days to find out!

You should! I didn't harden him the first time because I didn't know about it, but I have everytime since. Not only is the landsmeet quite awesome if you're playing a male PC and Alistair duels Loghain, but it's really good to see him gain self confidence and believe in himself more--at least to me. He's still a duty-driven, moral, funny guy. That doesn't change whatever you do. He's just willing to take his own wants into account instead of dismissing them as irrelevant.

[OfficerDonNZ]

Thanks Zjarcal. I don't have a save early enough, bugger. Oh well just have to start a new HNF and harden Alistair me thinks.



Out of cursousity dose it effect his camio in Awakaning?

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

Hardened Alistair grows a spine and will begin to stand up for himself. He takes a different view of Anora, growing very reluctant to the idea of her being Queen.

He also will be less disgusted by the idea of being King. If you make him do the duel with Loghain, he'll take the crown immediately with no further intervention from anyone (I believe there are a couple of cases in which he won't do this but I don't which ones they are). Once he's King, he won't be mad at the player for having made him King.

Also, hardened Alistair will be willing to keep a non-HNF partner as his mistress, even if he's marrying Anora.

Finally, hardened Alistair is willing to marry Anora if you spare Loghain (provided you had arranged the marriage before the Landsmeet). This is the only way you can spare Loghain and prevent Alistair from being executed or becoming a wandering drunk.

I'm not sure you do him any favors there. Okay, it's better than being dead, but exiled Alistair at least has a chance at finding love and happiness.

I think 'grows a spine' is the wrong way to put it. Alistair is far from spineless. Look at the way he stands up to the PC over blood magic, and throws himself at ogres and the like. What he is, is a man who's been told that he's incapable of leadership for his entire life, and whose primary focus is duty. So he follows what he believes his duty to be, obeying those he believes to be his superiors, both socially and in terms of ability. When first given the opportunity to lead, after Ostagar, the idea terrifies him, but this isn't because he's spineless, but because he fears failing people so greatly.

[errant_knight]

TheGrumpyOne wrote...

On to another subject related to Anora-- I read on another game forum yesterday, that Anora is sent away to spend the rest of her life at a chantry in a bugged epilogue. Does anyone know if this is true or not? Someone mentioned finding the missing epilogue in the toolset?

I hadn't heard that, but I'll look for it tomorrow. That's a pretty good idea, I must say....

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I don't think we can assume that a hardened Alistair doesn't execute her. We aren't told, but while unhardened Alistair is taken aback at the idea of having her executed, hardened Alistair sends her to the tower specifically as an insurance policy in case he's killed fighting the archdemon. If he survives, he may or may not execute her, we don't know. The reason for imprisoning her is gone, and he wouldn't let her go without a promise of fealty, which Anora seems unwilling to give. He doesn't seem intrinsically against it, but he may want to keep her around until he has, or decides on. an heir. Or she may capitulate and swear fealty. Again. we don't know.

Interesting. I didn't know hardened Alistair expressed a reason for locking up Anora. The dude really shines when hardened, eh?

Yep, once he accepts leadership, he's pretty good at it.

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Thanks Zjarcal. I don't have a save early enough, bugger. Oh well just have to start a new HNF and harden Alistair me thinks.

Out of cursousity dose it effect his camio in Awakaning?

If he's king he appears as king, but only then. Oh, and about the mistress thing.... His instincts are still that he has to break up, that it's the right and fair thing to do, both for the PC and his future queen ( I don't know about the case of him marrying Anora, I assume it's the same). He's still a nice, decent guy. The PC has to convince him that it's okay, and she doesn't mind.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

I think 'grows a spine' is the wrong way to put it. Alistair is far from spineless.

I know, but I always loved the banter between him and Sten where Sten says "so you do have some spine?". He does have a spine, but it needs some growing!

As for whether marrying Anora when sparing Loghain is a favor or not, I don't know. He does have a chance to get become himself again if he becomes a drunk, but we don't know. He may as well stay a drunk for life. On the other hand, during the post coronation scene, if Loghain killed the AD (with no DR), Alistair seems rather OK with his situation. He's still cold towards the player, but he mentions that he's grateful you made him king. Aside from his cold attitude, he doesn't really seem miserable.

At any rate, it's kind of a crapshoot when sparing Loghain and trying to get the best possible ending for Alistair.

[nos_astra]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...
Out of cursousity dose it effect his camio in Awakaning?

No, his cameo in Awakening is only influenced by the flags for married to the player or in love. If neither of them is set you'll get a standard cameo and it doesn't matter should he be still in love, friendly, warm or hostile.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[Zjarcal]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Thanks Zjarcal. I don't have a save early enough, bugger. Oh well just have to start a new HNF and harden Alistair me thinks.

Out of cursousity dose it effect his camio in Awakaning?

If you're willing to fool around with mods, there is one that allows you to switch his status between hardened and unhardened.

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think 'grows a spine' is the wrong way to put it. Alistair is far from spineless.

I know, but I always loved the banter between him and Sten where Sten says "so you do have some spine?". He does have a spine, but it needs some growing!

As for whether marrying Anora when sparing Loghain is a favor or not, I don't know. He does have a chance to get become himself again if he becomes a drunk, but we don't know. He may as well stay a drunk for life. On the other hand, during the post coronation scene, if Loghain killed the AD (with no DR), Alistair seems rather OK with his situation. He's still cold towards the player, but he mentions that he's grateful you made him king. Aside from his cold attitude, he doesn't really seem miserable.

At any rate, it's kind of a crapshoot when sparing Loghain and trying to get the best possible ending for Alistair.

Well, he's glad Loghain is dead, and he's glad he's king, but I can't see there being any reason for all those things he tells you about how he feels about Anora, etc., when Loghain doesn't die being any different. Nothing has changed there, and he's still pissed.

Well, I won't keep arguing about the spine thing, but I think it's quite unfair--besides irritating the heck out of me.

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I won't keep arguing about the spine thing, but I think it's quite unfair--besides irritating the heck out of me.

Sorry! It's not my intention to irritate you. Alistair is certainly far from a coward, whether hardened or unhardened. I'll try to stick to "stands up for himself" instead of saying "grows a spine".