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[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I won't keep arguing about the spine thing, but I think it's quite unfair--besides irritating the heck out of me.

Sorry! It's not my intention to irritate you. Alistair is certainly far from a coward, whether hardened or unhardened. I'll try to stick to "stands up for himself" instead of saying "grows a spine".

Heh, I'd appreciate that, thanks. Now off to bed. I have to get up in 5 hours. Yuck.

Nice picture, Grumpy! I'll definitely look for that. I need to learn to work with scripts, maybe I can make a fix.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[CalJones]

Poor Anora! I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I actually like Anora but I doubt I'll get a lot of sympathisers in this thread.

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

Poor Anora! I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I actually like Anora but I doubt I'll get a lot of sympathisers in this thread.

I like Anora! And you're right, that's a horrible fate.

[OfficerDonNZ]

Anora getting sent to the Chantry? Sounds like a fitting end for the backstabbing... Ahem. I can see why a hardend Alistair might do that though for he was misirable when he was in the Chanrty so he fingures the payback is worth it

[CalJones]

Those who claim Anora is a backstabber are the same people who blew her identity to Ser Cauthrien after she specifically told you not to do that.

As for Landsmeet, she will only go against you if you tell her you won't support her. That's not so surprising is it? She's been groomed to be queen since she was a toddler and was betrothed to Cailan - she doesn't know anything else.

She's not nicey-nice but any politician who is doesn't tend to last long. She's a strong woman, and I respect that. I certainly don't think she deserves getting slammed in the tower when she's lost her husband, her father and her throne. I feel sorry for her, actually (but then she always stays queen in my games, whether it's married to Alistair, my Cousland or on her own).

[Lanfaer01]

CalJones wrote...

Those who claim Anora is a backstabber are the same people who blew her identity to Ser Cauthrien after she specifically told you not to do that.
As for Landsmeet, she will only go against you if you tell her you won't support her. That's not so surprising is it? She's been groomed to be queen since she was a toddler and was betrothed to Cailan - she doesn't know anything else.
She's not nicey-nice but any politician who is doesn't tend to last long. She's a strong woman, and I respect that. I certainly don't think she deserves getting slammed in the tower when she's lost her husband, her father and her throne. I feel sorry for her, actually (but then she always stays queen in my games, whether it's married to Alistair, my Cousland or on her own).

Not quite correct... She will also turn against you if you don't speak to her prior the landsmeet, no matter what happened during her rescue.

[CalJones]

Well that's not surprising either. She asks you to go speak to her - if you don't she'll likely assume you're not interested in what she has to say.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Well that's not surprising either. She asks you to go speak to her - if you don't she'll likely assume you're not interested in what she has to say.

That doesn't change that she is willing to lie to the Landsmeet. You never kidnapped her or threatened to kill her, no matter what you say or do. She may have her reasons but those reasons are neither fair nor just. It's dance to my tune or die.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Aeowyn]

CalJones wrote...

Well that's not surprising either. She asks you to go speak to her - if you don't she'll likely assume you're not interested in what she has to say.

She will also backstab you even if you tell her you will support her but then say that Loghain needs to be brought to justice. Might be a bug, but that happened to me. I was preparing to win the Landsmeet and then she came in and went against me and I went "WTF". Still made her Queen though. Politicians need backstabbers.

[SurelyForth]

Yeah, I have no problem with seeing Anora as a backstabber, despite the fact that you have to "betray" her before she betrays you. The fact of the matter is my PC and her companions just risked their lives (and probably psychological health, if they're Couslands) to save Anora's ass. And it's not like you say "Here's Anora! She's said all sorts of nasty things about you and Loghain, Cauthrien." You're just trying to keep from being taken into custody by fifteen armed men because that means almost guaranteed death for you and guaranteed death for you means guaranteed death for everyone.

But Anora is more concerned about her own welfare and that's that. IMO, she is not aware enough of the importance of Grey Wardens to ending the Blight (and she should be, if she's as excellent an administrator as she's supposed to be).

Of course, I'm the sort of person who strenuously disagrees that being successfully cutthroat indicates anything of a person's worth. Certainly she was good at what she did, but she was willing to kick too many people aside for my tastes and sacrifice her country or her father for her own amibitions. It's metagaming, but we know that she alone and hardened Alistair are pretty close in terms of ruling success and I'm sure he manages to do it without the level of outright manipulation she uses.

Besides, is going to the Chantry that bad, really? It sucked for Alistair because he was being trained for a specific position that required tons of sacrifices (including his sanity in the longterm). Leliana indicates that laysisters don't even have to take vows. I imagine, in the grand scheme of things, it's one of the better ends she could meet considering that she refused to swear fealty to her king (which she would treat as an executionable offense).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 septembre 2010 - 12:10 .

[ejoslin]

While there are bugged epilogue slides (quite a few of them), there is NO mention anywhere that Anora is shipped off to the chantry. That sounds more like wishful thinking.

Edit: Think about it a second -- there have been numerous mods that work on various slideshow issues, including some very Alistair-centric ones.  Had there actually been a bugged epilogue card with Anora ending up at the chantry, it would have been fixed in, at the very least, Alistair Dialog Patch.

But in case you're wondering, yes, I double checked.  No card like that at all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

While there are bugged epilogue slides (quite a few of them), there is NO mention anywhere that Anora is shipped off to the chantry. That sounds more like wishful thinking.

Edit: Think about it a second -- there have been numerous mods that work on various slideshow issues, including some very Alistair-centric ones.  Had there actually been a bugged epilogue card with Anora ending up at the chantry, it would have been fixed in, at the very least, Alistair Dialog Patch.

But in case you're wondering, yes, I double checked.  No card like that at all.

Nertz.

I was actually hopeful that there really was post-game cards for non-Queen Anora. I'm going to be working on post-Origins fic soon in which Alistair was made solo king, and I wanted a sorta canon way to deal with her (even if she ends up Teyrna of Gwaren, it would give me something to work with that isn't all conjecture).

[Persephone]

Alistair surely can kiss! Can't he?:wub::wub:

Modifié par Persephone, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[inclemency]

For Merilsell and Grumpy (and me)...my current PC put her foot down.

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...

But Anora is more concerned about her own welfare and that's that. IMO, she is not aware enough of the importance of Grey Wardens to ending the Blight (and she should be, if she's as excellent an administrator as she's supposed to be).

That's a little harsh given that even the Warden and Alistair aren't aware that only a warden can slay the archdemon.
It does seem that the lethality of the Joining is a poorly kept secret (Anora knows, presumably because Maric told Cailan who then blabbed it to Anora) but Wynne also mentions something about "you survived the joining" in one of her talks to the Warden.
The whole warden must kill the archdemon thing, though, seems to be a secret only the senior wardens are aware of. (Rather stupidly, in my opinion). Anyway...

Good to know the chantry thing is a lie (or a mod) at least.
I do think it would be a good thing to give her an epilogue, and a bit more choice on how to deal with her. I'd be inclined to let her remain teyrna of Gwaren out of compassion if nothing else (she has just lost everything, after all) but exile wouldn't be a terrible option - it'd give her the chance to start over somewhere else, at least. Some people seem to want the option to execute her. I think that's a little harsh given that she hasn't really done anything wrong, beyond fighting to maintain her position. (I also think executing Alistair is harsh, too. I've done it once on a character who wasn't terribly nice, but as a rule, if I'm not making him king, he gets exiled).

[Persephone]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Anora getting sent to the Chantry? Sounds like a fitting end for the backstabbing... Ahem. I can see why a hardend Alistair might do that though for he was misirable when he was in the Chanrty so he fingures the payback is worth it

How is Anora a backstabber?

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But Anora is more concerned about her own welfare and that's that. IMO, she is not aware enough of the importance of Grey Wardens to ending the Blight (and she should be, if she's as excellent an administrator as she's supposed to be).

That's a little harsh given that even the Warden and Alistair aren't aware that only a warden can slay the archdemon.
It does seem that the lethality of the Joining is a poorly kept secret (Anora knows, presumably because Maric told Cailan who then blabbed it to Anora) but Wynne also mentions something about "you survived the joining" in one of her talks to the Warden.
The whole warden must kill the archdemon thing, though, seems to be a secret only the senior wardens are aware of. (Rather stupidly, in my opinion). Anyway...

Good to know the chantry thing is a lie (or a mod) at least.
I do think it would be a good thing to give her an epilogue, and a bit more choice on how to deal with her. I'd be inclined to let her remain teyrna of Gwaren out of compassion if nothing else (she has just lost everything, after all) but exile wouldn't be a terrible option - it'd give her the chance to start over somewhere else, at least. Some people seem to want the option to execute her. I think that's a little harsh given that she hasn't really done anything wrong, beyond fighting to maintain her position. (I also think executing Alistair is harsh, too. I've done it once on a character who wasn't terribly nice, but as a rule, if I'm not making him king, he gets exiled).

Well said. Anora is a queen through and through. No queen will accept a shadowy order trying to dethrone her in addition to murdering her father. Sorry, won't happen. And if you blab her identity to Cauthrien, what do people expect? As for psychological health, did anyone of those who glory in killing her father before her ever consider that? Or how much it must cost her to slander him at the Landsmeet? 

[ejoslin]

BTW, Anora will also betray you if you let her know you're planning on executing Loghain. It's the only time she calls for Alistair's death as well -- if he is calling for Loghain's death. She wants two things -- to be queen and for her father to be spared. So if Loghain is alive and she feels Alistair may kill him, she will want Alistair dead. If you make her solo queen after killing Loghain, she only asks for Alistair to swear fealty -- protecting her father is a moot point then.

That said, leaving her alive after she refuses to swear fealty is just asking for civil war.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[inclemency]

CalJones wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But Anora is more concerned about her own welfare and that's that. IMO, she is not aware enough of the importance of Grey Wardens to ending the Blight (and she should be, if she's as excellent an administrator as she's supposed to be).

That's a little harsh given that even the Warden and Alistair aren't aware that only a warden can slay the archdemon.
It does seem that the lethality of the Joining is a poorly kept secret (Anora knows, presumably because Maric told Cailan who then blabbed it to Anora) but Wynne also mentions something about "you survived the joining" in one of her talks to the Warden.
The whole warden must kill the archdemon thing, though, seems to be a secret only the senior wardens are aware of. (Rather stupidly, in my opinion). Anyway...

Good to know the chantry thing is a lie (or a mod) at least.
I do think it would be a good thing to give her an epilogue, and a bit more choice on how to deal with her. I'd be inclined to let her remain teyrna of Gwaren out of compassion if nothing else (she has just lost everything, after all) but exile wouldn't be a terrible option - it'd give her the chance to start over somewhere else, at least. Some people seem to want the option to execute her. I think that's a little harsh given that she hasn't really done anything wrong, beyond fighting to maintain her position. (I also think executing Alistair is harsh, too. I've done it once on a character who wasn't terribly nice, but as a rule, if I'm not making him king, he gets exiled).

My PC, who is either in a relationship with, or marries Alistair would never go for Anora being Teyrna of Gwaren.  I usually play a Cousland, and either she will be Teyrna, if she doesn't marry Alistair, or someone trusted will be.  Anora cannot be trusted to be in that position anymore, as the same goes for her as she accused Alistair (uprisings in her name).  With the power of being Teyrna, that would be unacceptable.

Someone last night came up with Anora being sent to Vigil's Keep to administer things there under the watchful eyes of Wardens.  I thought that was a stroke of brilliance.

[Persephone]

ejoslin wrote...

BTW, Anora will also betray you if you let her know you're planning on executing Loghain. It's the only time she calls for Alistair's death as well -- if he is calling for Loghain's death. She wants two things -- to be queen and for her father to be spared. So if Loghain is alive and she feels Alistair may kill him, she will want Alistair dead. If you make her solo queen after killing Loghain, she only asks for Alistair to swear fealty -- protecting her father is a moot point then.

That said, leaving her alive after she refuses to swear fealty is just asking for civil war.

I think it's VERY brave of her to defy Eamon (Whom I hate for many reasons). She sees Alistair as what he is, not meant to rule. And if keeping Anora alive is a mistake, then so is stopping Anora from having Alistair executed. (I always stop her)

[ejoslin]

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

BTW, Anora will also betray you if you let her know you're planning on executing Loghain. It's the only time she calls for Alistair's death as well -- if he is calling for Loghain's death. She wants two things -- to be queen and for her father to be spared. So if Loghain is alive and she feels Alistair may kill him, she will want Alistair dead. If you make her solo queen after killing Loghain, she only asks for Alistair to swear fealty -- protecting her father is a moot point then.

That said, leaving her alive after she refuses to swear fealty is just asking for civil war.

I think it's VERY brave of her to defy Eamon (Whom I hate for many reasons). She sees Alistair as what he is, not meant to rule. And if keeping Anora alive is a mistake, then so is stopping Anora from having Alistair executed. (I always stop her)

Well, if he's exiled, there IS an uprising in his name.  Of course, since he's off being a drunk, it's most likely not him behind it.

Edit: I think it's very stupid of her not to swear fealty when Alistair has the support of the entire landsmeet, when that is all that is asked of her.  Foolish pride, really.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[CalJones]

I loathe and despise Eamon. That, more than anything, is why I always make Anora queen.

But someone on another thread did say she might make a good warden. She can fight (she trained with a sword and bow - no doubt with some help from dad) and she's both ruthless and pragmatic. She might make a good WC - but certainly, even if she didn't undertake the joining, she could do well at Vigil's Keep.

[Persephone]

ejoslin wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

BTW, Anora will also betray you if you let her know you're planning on executing Loghain. It's the only time she calls for Alistair's death as well -- if he is calling for Loghain's death. She wants two things -- to be queen and for her father to be spared. So if Loghain is alive and she feels Alistair may kill him, she will want Alistair dead. If you make her solo queen after killing Loghain, she only asks for Alistair to swear fealty -- protecting her father is a moot point then.

That said, leaving her alive after she refuses to swear fealty is just asking for civil war.

I think it's VERY brave of her to defy Eamon (Whom I hate for many reasons). She sees Alistair as what he is, not meant to rule. And if keeping Anora alive is a mistake, then so is stopping Anora from having Alistair executed. (I always stop her)

Well, if he's exiled, there IS an uprising in his name.  Of course, since he's off being a drunk, it's most likely not him behind it.

Edit: I think it's very stupid of her not to swear fealty when Alistair has the support of the entire landsmeet, when that is all that is asked of her.  Foolish pride, really.

I heard about that Epilogue slide. But I never got to see it. I had hardened as well as unhardened Alistair exiled, but that slide never showed up.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

I loathe and despise Eamon. That, more than anything, is why I always make Anora queen.
But someone on another thread did say she might make a good warden. She can fight (she trained with a sword and bow - no doubt with some help from dad) and she's both ruthless and pragmatic. She might make a good WC - but certainly, even if she didn't undertake the joining, she could do well at Vigil's Keep.

Definitely. I'd love to see her reaction to my Warden invoking The Right Of Conscription.