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[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
That one's easy. Lies. A serving woman dies in childbirth, with a child she claims is the king's(lie number one). We know this is true, because of Goldanna. The baby dies with her. Also true. At the same time, this baby Alistair is brought in, they tell Goldanna the baby is dead (true), give her the coin to shut her mouth and she ends up in Denerim. They can now say Alistair is the child of said serving woman when he is old enough to be told. Lies.

That's a lot of assumptions though.
And a rather big coincidence to have baby Alistair arrive just when a serving maid who claims to be impregnated by the king dies with her offspring.

Not saying it's impossible. But it would be a meeh explanation for me, Idk.

I probably did a horrid job writing that, been a long day. But all they really needed was a mother and child that died in childbirth. In those times, fairly common really. Pay off the surviving child and pawn her off to relatives, and you have the cover story for Alistair.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, as I am replaying my Canon playthrough, I am doing Alistair's quest and helping him with his sis (yea I am nice like that). And it just occured to me. How can Alistair be Fiona's son if Goldanna recalls her mother dying in childbirth and giving birth to the king's son (and being paid to shut up about it)? I know that Alistair being Fiona's son is not established, but it's a theory that I've always believed likely. So what do supporters of the theory say of this? Is there a way to explain this seeming contradiction?
And as I am writing this, the weirdest thing occured to me. What if Hawke is Maric and Fiona's son? They did say afterall that we will find out what happened to Maric in DA2 (or he is a likely slave to Flemeth now).

My theory is that Goldanna is not really Alistair's sister.  I think that Eamon and Maric found a servant who had just died in childbirth.  Probably the child died too.  Goldanna misinterpreted their interest.

The end of The Calling did make it sound like Alistair was the child that Fiona brought to Maric.  Duncan promised to watch out for the boy, and he didn't sound like this wasn't the first time he made a promise like that. 

At the end of TC, wasn't Maric talking about an alliance with Orlais, and how suspicious Loghain had become of him?  He had to keep finding ways to sneak out because he was practically a prisoner?  Maybe we'll find out that Loghain had kept Maric chained up in some dungeon.   j/k  

[KnightofPhoenix]

But why would the mother claim to be impregnated by the king LJ? Mothers dying in childbirth are commonplace true, what what are the chances of having one who claims to have been oinked (?) by the king die? That's a rather big coincidence...

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But why would the mother claim to be impregnated by the king LJ? Mothers dying in childbirth are commonplace true, what what are the chances of having one who claims to have been oinked (?) by the king die? That's a rather big coincidence...

Rohan, was Eamon's sister. Maric would have been around Eamon's estates regularly. Look how many women today claim to have been impregnated by celebrities they never even got in the same building with. Thats the easiest of all to explain. A single commoner gets pregnant, and sees gold.

FFS watching LOTR and talking DA:O don't mix. Rowan not Rohan...lol

Modifié par Lady Jess, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:42 .

[tuppence95]

 Did the mother actually claim that?  Or did Goldanna just mis-remember that she did?  She must've been pretty young then.

Edit:  Need sleep.  Night!  

Modifié par tuppence95, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
Rohan, was Eamon's sister. Maric would have been around Eamon's estates regularly. Look how many women today claim to have been impregnated by celebrities they never even got in the same building with. Thats the easiest of all to explain. A single commoner gets pregnant, and sees gold.

FFS watching LOTR and talking DA:O don't mix. Rowan not Rohan...lol

Well Rowan was in Denerim. I don't think Maric would have visited Redcliff that often. And I don't doubt that it's possible that the mother lied.

What I am wondering about is how this mother appeared, claimed that she is carrying the king's son and then very conveniently died in childbirth just when Maric and Eamon needed a cover story for Alistair.
Either it's a big and convenient coincidence. Or someone masterminded it. Or the mother was not lying and Alistair is her son.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...

 Did the mother actually claim that?  Or did Goldanna just mis-remember that she did?  She must've been pretty young then.

Well she was paid to shut up when she asked them about the king's son.
She oculd have  mis-remembered, but Idk. I find it unlikely, it's ahrd to mis-remember such things.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
Rohan, was Eamon's sister. Maric would have been around Eamon's estates regularly. Look how many women today claim to have been impregnated by celebrities they never even got in the same building with. Thats the easiest of all to explain. A single commoner gets pregnant, and sees gold.

FFS watching LOTR and talking DA:O don't mix. Rowan not Rohan...lol

Well Rowan was in Denerim. I don't think Maric would have visited Redcliff that often. And I don't doubt that it's possible that the mother lied.

What I am wondering about is how this mother appeared, claimed that she is carrying the king's son and then very conveniently died in childbirth just when Maric and Eamon needed a cover story for Alistair.
Either it's a big and convenient coincidence. Or someone masterminded it. Or the mother was not lying and Alistair is her son.  

Don't forget Eamon has an estate in Denerim as well. Maric has only loved 3 women. Katriel, Fiona, and Rowan. He from the books, didn't seem to do the sleeping around thing. It could have just been timing. A woman dying in childbirth just before/after Fiona brings her son to Maric, creating a convenient ruse, so they use it to their advantage.

[LadyDamodred]

Does Goldana ever say that her mother said it was the king's? If Eamon and company spread word that the baby was the king's, who would question it, especially with Goldana's mother dead?

Keep in mind, memories are by no means fullproof, and children's memories especially can be easily influenced. At the time, Goldana might not have thought the baby was Maric's. But after her mother died, and everyone around her was sticking to that story, it became true to her as well. And it's easier to think Maric basically raped her mother and destroyed her family and life than think it was her mother's fault in any way.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
Don't forget Eamon has an estate in Denerim as well. Maric has only loved 3 women. Katriel, Fiona, and Rowan. He from the books, didn't seem to do the sleeping around thing. It could have just been timing. A woman dying in childbirth just before/after Fiona brings her son to Maric, creating a convenient ruse, so they use it to their advantage.

I thought the mother was in redcliff. Though she could have been there in Denerim too, tis true.

But what are the chances of finding a woman like that who claims to be the mother of the king's son and then die in childbirth along with the kid? One coincidence, I could accept. Two (her dying in childbirth AND claiming to be carrying the king's son)? I find it somewhat unlikely. Just me though.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
Don't forget Eamon has an estate in Denerim as well. Maric has only loved 3 women. Katriel, Fiona, and Rowan. He from the books, didn't seem to do the sleeping around thing. It could have just been timing. A woman dying in childbirth just before/after Fiona brings her son to Maric, creating a convenient ruse, so they use it to their advantage.

I thought the mother was in redcliff. Though she could have been there in Denerim too, tis true.

But what are the chances of finding a woman like that who claims to be the mother of the king's son and then die in childbirth along with the kid? One coincidence, I could accept. Two (her dying in childbirth AND claiming to be carrying the king's son)? I find it somewhat unlikely. Just me though.

But as Lady D said, she never says it was her Mom that claimed it. It could have been that she did thinking she'd get gold out of it, it could have been rumor among the rest of the staff. It could have come about after she died even.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Does Goldana ever say that her mother said it was the king's? If Eamon and company spread word that the baby was the king's, who would question it, especially with Goldana's mother dead?

Well she doesn't say it outright, but it seemed to me that she did. At least that how I understood what Goldanna said.

But, I guess it's possible that Goldanna mis-remembered. A meeh explanation, but I guess it could work.

[LadyDamodred]

It's not mis-remembering something, exactly. Memories can be altered and influnced quite easily, and especially for children. Goldana almost certainly believes every word she's saying, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. Children will swear up and down that they saw Santa in the sky, or the Easter bunny, etc.... They remember those things happening, but they never did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, I get what you are say LD. It's possible I guess. I would have preferred it being masterminded though, but I like these sorts of things anyways

[SurelyForth]

So this is what I figured happened with the Goldanna and her mother:

As a strong proponent of the Fiona is Alistair's mother school of thinking, I just assumed that Eamon really did have a pregnant maid. A man with Eamon's resources probably had a fair amount of staff, and it doesn't stretch credulity to imagine that, at any given time, he'd have one or two preggos working for him. Alternatively, he may hired a pregnant woman to be Alistair's wet nurse. He could have had weeks to prepare, depending on how long it took to get Alistair into Eamon's possession.

So maid was pregnant and maybe she was told she'd be the nan or wetnurse to a baby, and maybe she finds out that the baby is the king's (I can't imagine these things to be conducted in total privacy). Or maybe Eamon trusts her and tells her. She tells her young daughter, young daughter conflates "the king's baby" with her mother's baby and when her mother dies she never gets an explanation for what really happened.

So Goldanna is sent away and not told anything ever again. All she has are childhood memories of a mother who died and something about a king's baby. And, as her life was sh*t, it would be easy for her to cling to that, how her mother died to birth a king's bastard and how she lost everything and has had nothing.

I don't believe that Alistair is the son of a random serving girl. I don't believe this because 1. Maric just did not seem the sort to screw around...he was emotionally invested in all of his lovers. 2. Maric did not react to Fiona's baby in a way that suggested he'd already hidden another child away. He wanted to raise him as his own, and it was Fiona who convinced him otherwise. 3. Maric and Eamon would have done more for Goldanna had her mother actually died giving birth the Maric's son. I can't see them being that cold to turn out a child who was orphaned as a direct result of Maric's behavior.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Sandtigress]

Okay, I finally found their dialog in the toolset. Goldanna says that she told them the babe was the king's but not how she knew. So it's something that could have gotten passed around the servants or even directly told to Goldanna herself by Eamon, though I'm not sure why they'd do that.

More likely someone let it slip and Goldanna hung onto that even though her true brother or sister died at birth along with her mother.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ SurelyForth.
That makes sense.
It's still up in the air though. But Alistair being Fiona's child is definately more impressive than being the child of a common servant, that's for sure. More dramatic.

Thank you all for the clarification!

[Lady Jess]

I knew you guys could do it better than me!

[Monica21]

Sandtigress wrote...

Okay, I finally found their dialog in the toolset. Goldanna says that she told them the babe was the king's but not how she knew. So it's something that could have gotten passed around the servants or even directly told to Goldanna herself by Eamon, though I'm not sure why they'd do that.
More likely someone let it slip and Goldanna hung onto that even though her true brother or sister died at birth along with her mother.

I can't remember who said it, but it is stated somewhere that Eamon offered to raise the child. I think the death of the serving girl and Alistair's birth coincided, so he had the proper excuses to give for raising Alistair. Also, it gives him power over Maric.

Modifié par Monica21, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Addai]

Lady Jess wrote...

Don't forget Eamon has an estate in Denerim as well. Maric has only loved 3 women. Katriel, Fiona, and Rowan. He from the books, didn't seem to do the sleeping around thing. It could have just been timing. A woman dying in childbirth just before/after Fiona brings her son to Maric, creating a convenient ruse, so they use it to their advantage.

That's pretty much my take.  There was a woman who died in childbirth, whose baby also died, and they used her as a cover.  Goldanna never says where she learns "the babe was the king's."  I get the impression she was not living with her mother, perhaps away with relatives or she was already older and sent off to be a servant somewhere herself.  Either Eamon paid her to tell the story, or she heard rumors of the king being there with the baby and decided it was a good story that might get her some coin.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, as I am replaying my Canon playthrough, I am doing Alistair's quest and helping him with his sis (yea I am nice like that). And it just occured to me. How can Alistair be Fiona's son if Goldanna recalls her mother dying in childbirth and giving birth to the king's son (and being paid to shut up about it)? I know that Alistair being Fiona's son is not established, but it's a theory that I've always believed likely. So what do supporters of the theory say of this? Is there a way to explain this seeming contradiction?
And as I am writing this, the weirdest thing occured to me. What if Hawke is Maric and Fiona's son? They did say afterall that we will find out what happened to Maric in DA2 (or he is a likely slave to Flemeth now).

As I said up above, Goldanna never says she saw her mother give birth.  In fact, it sounds to me like she heard the news from "thems at the castle" so is going on secondhand information.

Hawke as Maric's son?  Er, no way.  Doesn't look a thing like him, for one thing, and we're told the baby in The Calling looked like him and Cailan.

[CalJones]

Well, Bioware have already confirmed Hawke and Bethany's father is an apostate mage. So no, not Maric.

[Addai]

I'm wondering who told Alistair about Goldanna and why.

[Lady Jess]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm wondering who told Alistair about Goldanna and why.

Didn't he say he discovered her after he joined the Wardens? I'm guessing either Eamon or Duncan told him who his mother was, and he went from there.

[CalJones]

I don't think he's talked to Eamon in years, has he?

As for Duncan, if Alistair actually was Fiona's child, I don't think Duncan would make something up, would he? I'm just going by his character but I would imagine he'd claim ignorance, if Fiona had asked him not to tell Alistair about her.