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[errant_knight]

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...


I never read the books and am not sure about the whole Alistair/Fiona thing but from what I've heard it could be true. But man if it is, did everybody drop the ball with this poor boy? Send him to Eamon to be a serving maid's bastard and get sent to the chantry when Isolde has a tantrum? They couldn't have found a couple with no children to give him to? Somewhere they could quietly watch him? Excuse me while I go load up IRS and leave the boy in a stupor.

Yes, they really dropped the ball.

I woke up thinking about this... sad, I know, but I was thinking that it's striking that Alistair mentions nothing about a wetnurse or nanny, like Nathaniel does with Adria.  So there isn't any mother figure at all for him.  Someone must have been kind to him for him to turn out as he did, but I picture that it must have been a succession of women, whoever was free at the time to care for the little tyke.  And it just about kills me to think of a baby that defenseless and alone, and of a mother who could give him up knowing that he would be.  After all, Fiona at least had her father when she was little, and she knew what happened when you didn't have anyone to look out for you anymore.  But I guess that she figured it was still the lesser evil to being an elf woman's child.

BTW you really should read the books!!!

Based on the bit that was posted, it sounds to me like Fiona is asking Maric to make sure he his happy and cared for and finds a better life. Not dump him with Eamon who tells him whose son he is but that he is not good enough to be part of that life, who then turns and dumps him on the Chantry. I would be interested to know what Fiona would think of all this? Could she have been under the impression that Maric would find a nice quiet family for him?

And Eamon shouldn't get all the blame. Maric was alive when Alistair was sent to the Chantry, and I don't believe that would have been done without his approval.

[CalJones]

Maric the deadbeat dad.

[errant_knight]

This is why I have a hard time believing that Alistair is Fiona's son. His treatment makes a certain sense from the nobility in dealing with the product of a one night stand with a servant. It could actually have been a lot worse. They could have handed Goldana the baby and said 'off with you now.' One can only imagine how well that would have gone for Alistair.

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

I do tend to think she's nastier to female characters. I usually play males, and humans at that, so I admit I'd forgotten some of her more barbed comments. She is certainly not meant to be likeable but I wouldn't go as far as to slap her around.

To be fair, while I would like to slap her sometime eventually, we are the ones barging into her house so we really have no right to go around slapping her in her own home.

I don't like her one bit, I hate her comments (especially against a female), and I also feel she's too rude to Alistair (though to be fair, Alistair was very wrong in expecting a warm welcome), but it's her house that we just barged in, slapping her really isn't an option.

[Addai]

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...


I never read the books and am not sure about the whole Alistair/Fiona thing but from what I've heard it could be true. But man if it is, did everybody drop the ball with this poor boy? Send him to Eamon to be a serving maid's bastard and get sent to the chantry when Isolde has a tantrum? They couldn't have found a couple with no children to give him to? Somewhere they could quietly watch him? Excuse me while I go load up IRS and leave the boy in a stupor.

Yes, they really dropped the ball.

I woke up thinking about this... sad, I know, but I was thinking that it's striking that Alistair mentions nothing about a wetnurse or nanny, like Nathaniel does with Adria.  So there isn't any mother figure at all for him.  Someone must have been kind to him for him to turn out as he did, but I picture that it must have been a succession of women, whoever was free at the time to care for the little tyke.  And it just about kills me to think of a baby that defenseless and alone, and of a mother who could give him up knowing that he would be.  After all, Fiona at least had her father when she was little, and she knew what happened when you didn't have anyone to look out for you anymore.  But I guess that she figured it was still the lesser evil to being an elf woman's child.

BTW you really should read the books!!!

Based on the bit that was posted, it sounds to me like Fiona is asking Maric to make sure he his happy and cared for and finds a better life. Not dump him with Eamon who tells him whose son he is but that he is not good enough to be part of that life, who then turns and dumps him on the Chantry. I would be interested to know what Fiona would think of all this? Could she have been under the impression that Maric would find a nice quiet family for him?

Oh, I agree, both Maric and Fiona thought they were doing a good thing for him, but it doesn't make me want to Fireball them any less.  Fiona naively assumes that growing up as a human, even a bastard commoner, is better than anything she could give her son.  Which would have been true, maybe, if not for the fact that the King of Ferelden was willing to recognize him and pull strings for both of them.  Here Fiona's pride kicked in because she wasn't willing to be Maric's kept woman.  So even though I don't think she pictured Alistair as having a miserable childhood (and it could have been a lot worse, let's remember), she still let her child out of her arms and walked away.  And so did Maric.  Whatever good motives they might have had, thinking that a child would be better off without the love of his parent(s) was a dumb idea.

[Addai]

I thought I'd repost this painting from dA because I read the artist note and thought it was touching.  Note below.




"i keep alistair in a very special place in my heart, and so, for him, i painted this piece ::

when i was depressed, alistair gave me hope. call it stupid, dorky, cheesy...
it's the truth."

I imagine a lot of us get called dorky and cheesy for being touched by these characters and stories, but to that I say the big W- whatever.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Lady Jess]

Sandtigress wrote...

Is Kara the only Dalish who decided to make the best of the situation and try to be civil to anyone who didn't deserve getting murder-knifed? :-P
She and Alistair got along decently well from the start...

Lyra is pretty much doing that now, aftrer Alistair yelled at her.  I think she just needed to know that this squishy fellow warden had it in him to stand and deliver. She's a little like me,if I'm in a good mood and being all positive and such I'm great. But if people around me are moping and sad I end up absorbing that. So with her already traumatic beginning, she had reentment, and anger, and sadness all fighting for control, her answer was just just shut down and be quiet except when neccessary. Alistair being all sad puppy and forcing leadership on her  absorbed into that and made her resent him too. And yes, he IS totally justified she was just in a bad place.

When he finally snapped after Lothering and told her off I think it was a release for them both. She got to throw the "put it all on me" thing at him, he got the weight off his chest, and now they're building back up. She's a little nicer to everyone (Til Leliana ticks her off with the elf thing) but still a bit venomous bout certain things. Heaven help the next person that tells her she's an elf I swear.

Meeting Ruck has helped eliminate some of the resentment of being a Warden, seeing what happens to the taint unchecked too.

[Yankee23]

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...


I never read the books and am not sure about the whole Alistair/Fiona thing but from what I've heard it could be true. But man if it is, did everybody drop the ball with this poor boy? Send him to Eamon to be a serving maid's bastard and get sent to the chantry when Isolde has a tantrum? They couldn't have found a couple with no children to give him to? Somewhere they could quietly watch him? Excuse me while I go load up IRS and leave the boy in a stupor.

Yes, they really dropped the ball.

I woke up thinking about this... sad, I know, but I was thinking that it's striking that Alistair mentions nothing about a wetnurse or nanny, like Nathaniel does with Adria.  So there isn't any mother figure at all for him.  Someone must have been kind to him for him to turn out as he did, but I picture that it must have been a succession of women, whoever was free at the time to care for the little tyke.  And it just about kills me to think of a baby that defenseless and alone, and of a mother who could give him up knowing that he would be.  After all, Fiona at least had her father when she was little, and she knew what happened when you didn't have anyone to look out for you anymore.  But I guess that she figured it was still the lesser evil to being an elf woman's child.

BTW you really should read the books!!!

Based on the bit that was posted, it sounds to me like Fiona is asking Maric to make sure he his happy and cared for and finds a better life. Not dump him with Eamon who tells him whose son he is but that he is not good enough to be part of that life, who then turns and dumps him on the Chantry. I would be interested to know what Fiona would think of all this? Could she have been under the impression that Maric would find a nice quiet family for him?

Oh, I agree, both Maric and Fiona thought they were doing a good thing for him, but it doesn't make me want to Fireball them any less.  Fiona naively assumes that growing up as a human, even a bastard commoner, is better than anything she could give her son.  Which would have been true, maybe, if not for the fact that the King of Ferelden was willing to recognize him and pull strings for both of them.  Here Fiona's pride kicked in because she wasn't willing to be Maric's kept woman.  So even though I don't think she pictured Alistair as having a miserable childhood (and it could have been a lot worse, let's remember), she still let her child out of her arms and walked away.  And so did Maric.  Whatever good motives they might have had, thinking that a child would be better off without the love of his parent(s) was a dumb idea.

Again, I'm filling in a lot about Fiona and Maric from my own imagination but...Thinking of it in terms of adoption I wouldn't say that I agree with your statement above. It may not have been a dumb idea if it was handled properly. He could have ended up with a loving family and a normal life, which is what I interpret from the passage Fiona was asking Maric to take care of. She left him with his father who, as king, had the resources to make sure he was taken care of. The more we discuss this I am blaming Maric more and more...

[Monica21]

errant_knight wrote...

This is why I have a hard time believing that Alistair is Fiona's son. His treatment makes a certain sense from the nobility in dealing with the product of a one night stand with a servant. It could actually have been a lot worse. They could have handed Goldana the baby and said 'off with you now.' One can only imagine how well that would have gone for Alistair.

The reason I do buy that Alistair is Fiona's son, is because I don't see the point of introducing a bastard in the book only to have it be a completely different bastard in DA.

[Addai]

Yankee23 wrote...

Again, I'm filling in a lot about Fiona and Maric from my own imagination but...Thinking of it in terms of adoption I wouldn't say that I agree with your statement above. It may not have been a dumb idea if it was handled properly. He could have ended up with a loving family and a normal life, which is what I interpret from the passage Fiona was asking Maric to take care of. She left him with his father who, as king, had the resources to make sure he was taken care of. The more we discuss this I am blaming Maric more and more...

Oh, I blame Maric for sure, though he was trying to do what Fiona wanted him to do.  He was willing to recognize the baby but didn't because Fiona asked him not to.  And he just wasn't a great father, which he admits regarding Cailan.  Apparently he grew up without a father, too, since he's never mentioned, so you would think that would motivate him a little but apparently not.  It especially makes me angry to think that Maric was alive when Alistair was sent to the Chantry.

Duncan was also supposed to be looking out for Alistair.  But all I'm saying is that Fiona takes her share of responsibility in the clusterf*ck, too.  She did walk away.  Leaving the baby in the hands of a widower king and a bachelor (who gave him to another clueless bachelor) and just hoping for the best?  Hmm.

[CalJones]

javapadawan wrote...

I'm a little late with this, but on the topic of Goldanna, I was a hater too... until recently. There was a conversation, in this thread I think, not too long ago, where some folks (KoP maybe?) were defending her, and there were some good points made that softened me up a bit. Then I read this story over on Swooping:

http://community.liv...bad/928621.html

Now I feel kind of bad for her, and guilty for all those times I refused to give her money. I'm a sap like that.

That's a really nice piece of writing and characterisation. Thanks for posting.

[Yankee23]

Addai67 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Again, I'm filling in a lot about Fiona and Maric from my own imagination but...Thinking of it in terms of adoption I wouldn't say that I agree with your statement above. It may not have been a dumb idea if it was handled properly. He could have ended up with a loving family and a normal life, which is what I interpret from the passage Fiona was asking Maric to take care of. She left him with his father who, as king, had the resources to make sure he was taken care of. The more we discuss this I am blaming Maric more and more...

Oh, I blame Maric for sure, though he was trying to do what Fiona wanted him to do.  He was willing to recognize the baby but didn't because Fiona asked him not to.  And he just wasn't a great father, which he admits regarding Cailan.  Apparently he grew up without a father, too, since he's never mentioned, so you would think that would motivate him a little but apparently not.  It especially makes me angry to think that Maric was alive when Alistair was sent to the Chantry.

Duncan was also supposed to be looking out for Alistair.  But all I'm saying is that Fiona takes her share of responsibility in the clusterf*ck, too.  She did walk away.  Leaving the baby in the hands of a widower king and a bachelor (who gave him to another clueless bachelor) and just hoping for the best?  Hmm.

Oh nobody escapes without blame for me. But I guess I am putting alot of it on Maric because it seems he just said "meh, I tried oh well...". I am also assuming Fiona knows nothing about what went on after she left, if not let's dump some more on her, as well. I get giving him to Eamon in principle. And I get trying to keep his distance but once Eamon wanted to send him to the chantry Maric should have intervened in some form. Do we know from the books how Maric felt about the chantry? Could he have honestly thought it a good idea because he was devout or that it is not out of the ordianry for younger children to be given to the church and he would find a life there(unaware, I hope, of the lyrium thing)? Man, I really need to get these books, lol.

[Addai]

Maric was pretty devout. He probably didn't think of being sent to the Chantry as the worst thing, either. The key being, as Alistair says, no one ever asked him what he wanted. Who knows, maybe when they got wind that Alistair was unhappy, Maric helped Duncan devise a way to get him out of there by conscripting him.

[Merilsell]

Monica21 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

This is why I have a hard time believing that Alistair is Fiona's son. His treatment makes a certain sense from the nobility in dealing with the product of a one night stand with a servant. It could actually have been a lot worse. They could have handed Goldana the baby and said 'off with you now.' One can only imagine how well that would have gone for Alistair.

The reason I do buy that Alistair is Fiona's son, is because I don't see the point of introducing a bastard in the book only to have it be a completely different bastard in DA.

This.

Would Maric have been a women-eating kind of guy then I would have still my doubts. But since he was always very serious about the women he loved and didn't sleep around, I just can't picture him having yet another bastard child somewhere. BTW it's a nice detail that Alistair is pretty much like his father what concerns love.

[rak72]

Addai67 wrote...

Maric was pretty devout. He probably didn't think of being sent to the Chantry as the worst thing, either. The key being, as Alistair says, no one ever asked him what he wanted. Who knows, maybe when they got wind that Alistair was unhappy, Maric helped Duncan devise a way to get him out of there by conscripting him.

Maric had been "dead" for 5 years before Duncan conscripted him, so I don't think he was involved with that.

Edit: Unless, maybe,  Maric is off, hangin with the GW's & Fiona somewhere, and they told Duncan to do something about  Alistair.

Modifié par rak72, 11 septembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Maric was pretty devout. He probably didn't think of being sent to the Chantry as the worst thing, either. The key being, as Alistair says, no one ever asked him what he wanted. Who knows, maybe when they got wind that Alistair was unhappy, Maric helped Duncan devise a way to get him out of there by conscripting him.

Maric had been "dead" for 5 years before Duncan conscripted him, so I don't think he was involved with that.

They could have discussed the possibility before Alistair was even sent to the Chantry. With his mother being a Grey Warden and Duncan being one, it would probably be pretty high on the list of perfect solutions to the bastard problem. The Chantry would keep him out of sight during his adolescence (which was probably a good thing, considering how much he looked like Cailan). He'd be educated, trained to fight and then Conscription would save him before he'd committed his life to being a templar. He'd get all the benefits of being an initiate and none of the addictions.

And, as a Grey Warden, he'd be considered ineligible for the throne unless someone pushed the issue. Anora doesn't view him as a threat when he stays as a Warden if you make her solo queen at the Landsmeet. It would be a very elegant and useful (and symbolic) way to deal with him. 

[rak72]

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Maric was pretty devout. He probably didn't think of being sent to the Chantry as the worst thing, either. The key being, as Alistair says, no one ever asked him what he wanted. Who knows, maybe when they got wind that Alistair was unhappy, Maric helped Duncan devise a way to get him out of there by conscripting him.

Maric had been "dead" for 5 years before Duncan conscripted him, so I don't think he was involved with that.

They could have discussed the possibility before Alistair was even sent to the Chantry. With his mother being a Grey Warden and Duncan being one, it would probably be pretty high on the list of perfect solutions to the bastard problem. The Chantry would keep him out of sight during his adolescence (which was probably a good thing, considering how much he looked like Cailan). He'd be educated, trained to fight and then Conscription would save him before he'd committed his life to being a templar. He'd get all the benefits of being an initiate and none of the addictions.

And, as a Grey Warden, he'd be considered ineligible for the throne unless someone pushed the issue. Anora doesn't view him as a threat when he stays as a Warden if you make her solo queen at the Landsmeet. It would be a very elegant and useful (and symbolic) way to deal with him. 

I think you need the blight  to invoke the right of conscription, so that would have been a risky plan.  Even with the blight, the Rev. Mother didn't want to let him go.

[tuppence95]

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

I think you need the blight  to invoke the right of conscription, so that would have been a risky plan.  Even with the blight, the Rev. Mother didn't want to let him go.

No need for a Blight. Duncan was conscripted without a Blight, as was Anders in Awakening. And nobody believed there was a Blight on when Alistair was conscripted, since Duncan is having troubles convincing everyone at Ostagar that the threat is anything more than a large raid. 

It is a risky plan, but Duncan would have had the support of the crown behind him if it came to that. 

[Addai]

rak72 wrote...

I think you need the blight  to invoke the right of conscription, so that would have been a risky plan.  Even with the blight, the Rev. Mother didn't want to let him go.

They had the right even without a Blight, but didn't like to use it when there wasn't one, so yes the Blight could have helped with timing.  Though really, they were pushing it timing-wise if this was a planned thing.  Alistair was old enough to take templar vows.

[Addai]

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

Maric seems to have dealt with parenting problems by becoming absent.  Like, physically absent, in The Calling.  So really it's no surprise that he took the same tack with Alistair.  He believed his boys were better off without him.

I think Eamon was trying to do alright by Alistair and just failed, then failed really spectacularly when Isolde came on the scene.  Probably what we are seeing is the "lost generation" from the rebellion where these men had either lost parents (Loghain, Maric) or never had them around (Eamon, Teagan) and it shows in their own parenting.

[Lady Jess]

rak72 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Maric was pretty devout. He probably didn't think of being sent to the Chantry as the worst thing, either. The key being, as Alistair says, no one ever asked him what he wanted. Who knows, maybe when they got wind that Alistair was unhappy, Maric helped Duncan devise a way to get him out of there by conscripting him.

Maric had been "dead" for 5 years before Duncan conscripted him, so I don't think he was involved with that.

They could have discussed the possibility before Alistair was even sent to the Chantry. With his mother being a Grey Warden and Duncan being one, it would probably be pretty high on the list of perfect solutions to the bastard problem. The Chantry would keep him out of sight during his adolescence (which was probably a good thing, considering how much he looked like Cailan). He'd be educated, trained to fight and then Conscription would save him before he'd committed his life to being a templar. He'd get all the benefits of being an initiate and none of the addictions.

And, as a Grey Warden, he'd be considered ineligible for the throne unless someone pushed the issue. Anora doesn't view him as a threat when he stays as a Warden if you make her solo queen at the Landsmeet. It would be a very elegant and useful (and symbolic) way to deal with him. 

I think you need the blight  to invoke the right of conscription, so that would have been a risky plan.  Even with the blight, the Rev. Mother didn't want to let him go.

We conscript Anders, and Nathaniel without a blight. I think Duncan mentions he tries to ONLY use it during a blight because of the repercussions (human noble origin). Without a blight he doesn't push the issue (City elf origin) so it may just be his personal preferance.

[Lady Jess]

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

I'm hoping KoP was right, he said he thought he saw that we'd find out what happened to Maric in DA2.

[pudi0072000]

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.