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[tuppence95]

Addai67 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

Maric seems to have dealt with parenting problems by becoming absent.  Like, physically absent, in The Calling.  So really it's no surprise that he took the same tack with Alistair.  He believed his boys were better off without him.

I think Eamon was trying to do alright by Alistair and just failed, then failed really spectacularly when Isolde came on the scene.  Probably what we are seeing is the "lost generation" from the rebellion where these men had either lost parents (Loghain, Maric) or never had them around (Eamon, Teagan) and it shows in their own parenting.

It's not even the chantry thing that bothers me so much about Eamon & Isolde.  I think he was so badly damaged during that time.  What other purpose did they have in telling him he was Maric's bastard than to cripple his spirit, having him live in the stables and making him feel he was disposed of.  It was an efficient way of making sure he never had the self-confidence to go after the throne.  

ToP again  

Modifié par tuppence95, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[pudi0072000]

tuppence95 wrote...
It's not even the chantry thing that bothers me so much about Eamon & Isolde.  I think he was so badly damaged during that time.  What other purpose did they have in telling him he was Maric's bastard than to cripple his spirit, having him live in the stables and making him feel he was disposed of.  It was an efficient way of making sure he never had the self-confidence to go after the throne.  

And sleeping with the mabari whenever he stayed at the Denerim estate. There's no excuse for any of that.

[tuppence95]

pudi0072000 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

I know that Loghain knew that Alistair was Maric's bastard, but did he know who the mother was?  Or was part of the "son of a servant girl" story party to keep Loghain from knowing that Maric had a child with an Orlesian and a mage?  I know, in the book, Maric had to wait until Loghain was away before he could sneak Duncan and Fiona into the castle.

[pudi0072000]

tuppence95 wrote...

pudi0072000 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

I know that Loghain knew that Alistair was Maric's bastard, but did he know who the mother was?  Or was part of the "son of a servant girl" story party to keep Loghain from knowing that Maric had a child with an Orlesian and a mage?  I know, in the book, Maric had to wait until Loghain was away before he could sneak Duncan and Fiona into the castle.

I don't think it's ever stated if Loghain knew who the mother was. I think knowing that Fiona is the mother of Maric's bastard would be a bit too much for Loghain to handle. Orleasions are evil, mages can't be trusted, and elves are second class citizens - definitely not the sort of person he'd want as the king's babby-momma.

[Lady Jess]

tuppence95 wrote...

pudi0072000 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I still have questions about what the hell happened to Maric?  I'm still going on the assumption that the baby was Alistair.  This ... "Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to have his own destiny. But to have the boy believe he was never wanted, to have him never know his true mother? The ache in his heart threatened to make it explode."  ... doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just dump the baby in someone's lap and then not care what happened to him.  Did he decide it would be better to cut all ties, so he didn't want to know what happened to the child and he completely trusted Eamon to look out for him?  Or did something else happen that drew Maric's focus until he died?

I know, after Fiona's experiences in slavery, she must have assumed that wherever the baby ended up, he'd be better off than being labeled an elf.  But Maric?  I feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.  But whatever Maric's problem, I have no respect for Eamon.  He knew what was going on.  I feel like Isolde pushed him into neatly getting rid of the boy, and he went along with it.  

I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

I know that Loghain knew that Alistair was Maric's bastard, but did he know who the mother was?  Or was part of the "son of a servant girl" story party to keep Loghain from knowing that Maric had a child with an Orlesian and a mage?  I know, in the book, Maric had to wait until Loghain was away before he could sneak Duncan and Fiona into the castle.

that just triggered a conspiracy theory in my head. Loghain's orlesian paranoia isn't new. It was there and building since the war ended. In a way, he had a severe case of PTSD really.  Huh...that actually changed my view on him slightly, but he'll still die for crimes. Anyway, back on track. You have Loghain, all paranoid about Orlesians...what if he somehow found out about Fiona and Maric? How many times does he call the GW Orlesians? Including Alistair. He insists we're from/fighting FOR Orlais pretty much the entire time. Regardless of the fact that you may be a Cousland, A Dwarf, Duncan was from Highever (actually Rivain) etc. (Funny how he doesn't point out Leliana really...). If he somehow found out that not only did Maric fall in love with an Orlesian, but produced a child...to him, that would be the Ultimate betrayal by his closest friend.

Then you have Flemeth's prediction, that Loghain would betray Maric, each time worse than the last. Death is an ultimate betrayal...

[tuppence95]

pudi0072000 wrote...

I don't think it's ever stated if Loghain knew who the mother was. I think knowing that Fiona is the mother of Maric's bastard would be a bit too much for Loghain to handle. Orleasions are evil, mages can't be trusted, and elves are second class citizens - definitely not the sort of person he'd want as the king's babby-momma.

I wonder if there is any dialog that Loghain has where he mentions how he feels about Anora's Erlina?

[Monica21]

pudi0072000 wrote...
I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

Loghain says that Maric nearly did acknowledge him, and the only reason he didn't was out of respect for Rowan's memory. I don't think there's any mention of him needing to be talked out of it.

[fhtagn]

CalJones wrote...

javapadawan wrote...
http://community.liv...bad/928621.html

That's a really nice piece of writing and characterisation. Thanks for posting.

I agree, and happy to share.

(Just to note, I don't *think* I gave the wrong impression in my post, but I want to make sure it's clear that it's not my work, just a piece I admired.)

[Monica21]

pudi0072000 wrote...
I don't think it's ever stated if Loghain knew who the mother was. I think knowing that Fiona is the mother of Maric's bastard would be a bit too much for Loghain to handle. Orleasions are evil, mages can't be trusted, and elves are second class citizens - definitely not the sort of person he'd want as the king's babby-momma.

Except that he certainly doesn't treat an elf or a mage with any sort of disdain when you meet him at Ostagar. Loghain is much more aware of the political implications of an elven mother (even he knew that the nobles wouldn't stand for an elven queen in TST), and if he did know, I think he would have used it against Alistair at the Landsmeet.

[Addai]

Lady Jess wrote...

I'm hoping KoP was right, he said he thought he saw that we'd find out what happened to Maric in DA2.

That was in one of the PAX podcasts, I believe.  Gaider said we would find out what happened to Fiona and Maric.  Now, it could be that "find out what happened to them" roughly equals "all your questions about Morrigan will be answered"...

[Addai]

pudi0072000 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
It's not even the chantry thing that bothers me so much about Eamon & Isolde.  I think he was so badly damaged during that time.  What other purpose did they have in telling him he was Maric's bastard than to cripple his spirit, having him live in the stables and making him feel he was disposed of.  It was an efficient way of making sure he never had the self-confidence to go after the throne.  

And sleeping with the mabari whenever he stayed at the Denerim estate. There's no excuse for any of that.

Alistair was obviously treated as one of the squires or servants' children, with duties in the stables and caring for the mabari.  Since mabari are treated like royalty, the latter was probably more comfortable than the former.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[pudi0072000]

Monica21 wrote...

pudi0072000 wrote...
I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

Loghain says that Maric nearly did acknowledge him, and the only reason he didn't was out of respect for Rowan's memory. I don't think there's any mention of him needing to be talked out of it.

It's been a while since I've spared Loghain, so I couldn't remember the exact details of the conversation. The part about Rowan sounds familiar, so I'm sure you're right!

@ Lady Jess:   I love that theory! That would be an amazing fic! 

[Lady Jess]

Addai67 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

I'm hoping KoP was right, he said he thought he saw that we'd find out what happened to Maric in DA2.

That was in one of the PAX podcasts, I believe.  Gaider said we would find out what happened to Fiona and Maric.  Now, it could be that "find out what happened to them" roughly equals "all your questions about Morrigan will be answered"...

I swore after WH I was finished but...since they are ixing it (should be a patch coming Monday) I might change my tune. And actually buy DA2.

[Merilsell]

*raises hand* Me too *sigh*

I hope for more Dalish lore and actual explanation of WTH is going on, actually. Somehow I know that they won't deliver that, so I hope at least to meet Ariane and her tribe again. She was an awesome companion in WH, after all.

[OfficerDonNZ]

Lady Jess wrote...

We conscript Anders, and Nathaniel without a blight. I think Duncan mentions he tries to ONLY use it during a blight because of the repercussions (human noble origin). Without a blight he doesn't push the issue (City elf origin) so it may just be his personal preferance.

Actually you have the rements of a blight there are still darkspawn running about that are not going to ground like they should. Also you've just lost the 12 or so Orlaisin wardens that were assgined to Fereldon. So there's only one living warden (two if you count Alistair) in all the land. You need wardens and fast. As the Warden-Commader the PC is in a very tough spot. The rite of conscription gets you out of it. And oh look Anders, and Nathaniel are right there when you need them

[Lady Jess]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

We conscript Anders, and Nathaniel without a blight. I think Duncan mentions he tries to ONLY use it during a blight because of the repercussions (human noble origin). Without a blight he doesn't push the issue (City elf origin) so it may just be his personal preferance.

Actually you have the rements of a blight there are still darkspawn running about that are not going to ground like they should. Also you've just lost the 12 or so Orlaisin wardens that were assgined to Fereldon. So there's only one living warden (two if you count Alistair) in all the land. You need wardens and fast. As the Warden-Commader the PC is in a very tough spot. The rite of conscription gets you out of it. And oh look Anders, and Nathaniel are right there when you need them

Still, the blight itself is over when the Archdemon dies. Your dealing with the vestiges yes, but at that point, no bloght. So if conscription was only useable during a blight you couldn't use it. Second, Duncan himself was conscripted, no blight then either. It's DUNCAN who prefers to not use it unless there is a blight. In the CE origin heb tells you he COULD have conscripted your mother, but there was no blight so he didn't even try.

[inclemency]

Monica21 wrote...

pudi0072000 wrote...
I can see Maric wanting to know as little as possible to make things easier. Doesn't Loghain say that Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, but was talked out of it? Would Loghain be referring to the discussion with Fiona about raising Alistair at the palace, or to some other time, I wonder? Either way, maybe he thought he'd be less tempted to steal his kid back if he didn't hear about him all the time.

Loghain says that Maric nearly did acknowledge him, and the only reason he didn't was out of respect for Rowan's memory. I don't think there's any mention of him needing to be talked out of it.

I think Loghein says some things about why Alistair wasn't acknowledged in quite harsh terms, if I can recall that far back (to the one lone time he lived in my games).  He mentioned Rowan, but my impression is he says something about Rowan being cast off if Maric acknowledged Alistair, or something along those lines .   Someone tell me I didn't dream that.  It made no sense to me at the time, so I just shrugged it off. 

[OfficerDonNZ]

Lady Jess wrote...

Still, the blight itself is over when the Archdemon dies. Your dealing with the vestiges yes, but at that point, no bloght. So if conscription was only useable during a blight you couldn't use it. Second, Duncan himself was conscripted, no blight then either. It's DUNCAN who prefers to not use it unless there is a blight. In the CE origin heb tells you he COULD have conscripted your mother, but there was no blight so he didn't even try.

As you say Duncan prefers not to use the rite of conscrption. Though the rite is a nessaery evil when you think about it. Wardens don't live that long and can't let their numbers drop too low. Gaining willing recuits will only go so far. In DA:O you could even try and conscrip the bandits outside of Lothering

[inclemency]

I actually still had my dwarf save in which Loghein lived, this is the conversation I sort of remembered:


PC: Why didn't he (Maric) acknowledge Alistair?

Loghein: He nearly did. Maric was never one to avoid his duty, and given his preference he would have acknowledged his son no matter the circumstance. But he had more than his honor to think of. It would have ruined Rowan, after all. She'd be reduced to a concubine in the eyes of our neighbors, and put Cailan's status as heir in question. So Maric made the hard choice. Eamon offered to raise the boy, and that was that.

PC: That's it? Honor and politics, and no concern for Alistair?

Loghein: What do you think would have become of Alistair, if Maric had claimed him? He would have been the bastard prince, and a continual reminder to Rowan of Maric's infidelity. At least with Eamon, Alistair had a childhood.

~~
Some childhood, and why would Rowan be 'reduced to a concubine' in people's eyes?

Modifié par inclemency, 11 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Yah Eamon definently never got a "Father of the Year" mug from anyone.

Than again compared to alot of other people at the time he probably did have a better childhood than many. Isolde most likely ruined his childhood though, I can see Eamon as a nice person, but well its Isolde here folks.

[Monica21]

inclemency wrote...

I actually still had my dwarf save in which Loghein lived, this is the conversation I sort of remembered:


PC: Why didn't he (Maric) acknowledge Alistair?

Loghein: He nearly did. Maric was never one to avoid his duty, and given his preference he would have acknowledged his son no matter the circumstance. But he had more than his honor to think of. It would have ruined Rowan, after all. She'd be reduced to a concubine in the eyes of our neighbors, and put Cailan's status as heir in question. So Maric made the hard choice. Eamon offered to raise the boy, and that was that.

PC: That's it? Honor and politics, and no concern for Alistair?

Loghein: What do you think would have become of Alistair, if Maric had claimed him? He would have been the bastard prince, and a continual reminder to Rowan of Maric's infidelity. At least with Eamon, Alistair had a childhood.

~~
Some childhood!

And again, the timeline is off. Alistair was born some time after Rowan's death, so Loghain's answer makes no sense. She can't be reminded of it if she's dead. I do think there is something to protecting Rowan's memory however.

[Merilsell]

Yay ,sleeping in stablesor mabari kennels FTW D:

Go shove it Eamon.

Edit: I rather think this is all due to the prior plans to make Alistair a lot older. This convo's could be a remaining part of that, because then the timeline with Rowan would have made sense, actually.

Modifié par Merilsell, 11 septembre 2010 - 08:58 .

[Addai]

Eh, I put very little stock in what Loghain has to say about Alistair. Maric wasn't really in a confiding mood on this subject, certainly not to Loghain- "hey Loggy, I had a bastard with an Orlesian mage Grey Warden" would not have been high on their fireside chat list. So IMO it's all a lot of supposition on Loghain's part.

[Avilia]

Could that chat be a remnant of 'original Alistair'? Or was he changed so early in the game development that it couldn't be?



Just seems only to make sense if Alistair is older than Cailan. Well to me anyway.

[Lady Jess]

No matter what I do, I never get a good front view of Alistair in this scene. It's always Sten or someone. I'm thinking Lyra might have actually ran shrieking into his chest after Archie came flying up out of there.





They've also reached a compromise on her lack of abdominal (and arm, and leg, and chest...) protection





And finished Orzammar!