39010 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Siduri wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I don't disagree, but you've made the point I was trying to make.  It's not the Grey Wardens in particular that he wants. It's family.  As long as the Wardens provide that, he's dedicated to them.  But if they can't and he thinks he can find it somewhere or with someone else, then he's willing to leave the Wardens to get what he wants.

He is devoted to the Wardens, but that's incidental to what he's really looking for.

Yeah, it sounds like we basically agree. When I say that being a Grey Warden is at the core of Alistair's identity, I mean that it's what he's latched on to to provide the thing he most wants in life (family). It's actually a poor approximation of a family, but it's the best he has, and he clings to it. I guess the one place I'd disagree with you is in the suggestion that he can leave the Wardens and be okay afterwards. Leaving the Wardens destroys him. When you make him King, he's still a Warden, after all. Or am I wrong in thinking that the one ending where he actually leaves the Wardens is the wandering-drunk ending?

I don't think it's leaving the Grey Wardens that destroys him, but what he sees as betrayal by a fellow warden, and the fact that making Loghain a warden taints something he'd believed in so much, so utterly. And because of his reaction to that, he fails to live up to his concept of duty, which is really sacred to him. His trust is broken, not just in the Grey wardens, and in the warden specifically, but in himself. He's consumed by anger and disappointment, not just at the warden and Loghain, but at himself.

Recycled story illustration, because it fits:

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:33 .

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Siduri wrote...
I think it is in his mind, though it may be a noble thing for the PC to do. Being a Grey Warden is the most important thing in his life. It's the core of his identity, really the one thing he's proud of -- and battling the archdemon is what Grey Wardens are for. If you leave him at the gates you're denying him the chance to fulfill what he sees as his true destiny.

I really really REALLY want to throw my usual objection and question how being a Warden is supposedly the most important thing in his life that he would put above all else.
 
But...I am not going to.
Lest I really fit Addai's metaphor about me being a mabari with an Alistair chew toy

LOL I thought you might like that and then you didn't even comment on it, I was disappointed.  You were too busy gnawing, I take it. 

You know that I kid, I kid.

I hope you don't miss the picture I did!

[Siduri]

Lady Jess wrote...

Leaving the wardens doesn't destroy him. Two things do that, sparing Loghain (if he's not married to Anora) turns him into a wandering drunk. Losing his love to the archdemon will make him leave the order if he's not king (or married to Anora) because it isn't the same anymore. 

Okay, now I have to see that epilogue slide, because it sounds really sweet.

Sandtigress, I can see how you would assume that the King isn't a Warden (and you're right about the chain of command being weird) but isn't there a line in one of the epilogue slides about having a Grey Warden as King ends up being good for the prestige of the order? Am I hallucinating that?

Anyway, I'm surprised to see how many people think that being a Grey Warden is incidental to Alistair's character. I guess he can be a lot of different things to different people. In my games the Grey Warden thing has always seemed to be crucial to his identity, and I do continue to see it that way.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Alright, just know that this is all in the spirit of good fun and that I am one of your minions!



EDIT: Fixed the middle O.

HA, excellent! Love it.
And yes kudos for the middle "O", it's very important to me lol

@ Addai
I know, I know

Awww, I'm so glad you like it! :wizard:

[errant_knight]

Siduri wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Leaving the wardens doesn't destroy him. Two things do that, sparing Loghain (if he's not married to Anora) turns him into a wandering drunk. Losing his love to the archdemon will make him leave the order if he's not king (or married to Anora) because it isn't the same anymore. 

Okay, now I have to see that epilogue slide, because it sounds really sweet.

Sandtigress, I can see how you would assume that the King isn't a Warden (and you're right about the chain of command being weird) but isn't there a line in one of the epilogue slides about having a Grey Warden as King ends up being good for the prestige of the order? Am I hallucinating that?

Anyway, I'm surprised to see how many people think that being a Grey Warden is incidental to Alistair's character. I guess he can be a lot of different things to different people. In my games the Grey Warden thing has always seemed to be crucial to his identity, and I do continue to see it that way.

I think Weisshaupt would be thrilled to have a warden on the throne of Ferelden. They essentially rule the Anderfels, so they don't seem to have a problem mixing rule with being wardens, and given the problems that the wardens have had in Ferelden, it's very good in guaranteeing that they will continue to be welcome in Ferelden and able to grow their numbers. Very positive from their point of view. The docterine says that you leave your old life and titles behind, cementing allegience to the wardens, but it doesn't say that if acquiring new ones is useful to the order they would have a problem with that. They certainly don't have a problem with a warden Arl.

I don't think you ever stop being a warden though, even if you leave, become disillusioned with the order, or whatever. It's like being a marine--once one, always one, and more so, because the physical change is always with you.

I think that being a warden is crucial to Alistair in that he needs to have a duty and a purpose--something good that he can believe in--but that if forced to do something else, either by distaste for what he sees the wardens as becoming, or by a duty to be king, he can be happy if he still has a similar purpose. Without purpose, well, we see what happens to him.

He can leave the order without being destroyed if his love dies and he isn't king, becoming a wanderer, which to me indicates that he finds a new duty to live for. Of couse, he also doesn't hate himself for failing. 

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Zjarcal]

@errant_knight:



Are you making some sort of drunken Alistair mod?

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

@errant_knight:

Are you making some sort of drunken Alistair mod?

No, I'm writing a story where Alistair excapes execution, eventually returning to Ferelden, and illustrating it with the toolset.
 When I'm done, I'll have a bunch of areas set up, though, so maybe I will at some point.

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Yankee23]

Siduri wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Leaving the wardens doesn't destroy him. Two things do that, sparing Loghain (if he's not married to Anora) turns him into a wandering drunk. Losing his love to the archdemon will make him leave the order if he's not king (or married to Anora) because it isn't the same anymore. 

Okay, now I have to see that epilogue slide, because it sounds really sweet.

Sandtigress, I can see how you would assume that the King isn't a Warden (and you're right about the chain of command being weird) but isn't there a line in one of the epilogue slides about having a Grey Warden as King ends up being good for the prestige of the order? Am I hallucinating that?

Anyway, I'm surprised to see how many people think that being a Grey Warden is incidental to Alistair's character. I guess he can be a lot of different things to different people. In my games the Grey Warden thing has always seemed to be crucial to his identity, and I do continue to see it that way.

I see it more that Alistair's character is what makes him proud of being a warden. The wardens didn't just shape his character in the six months he was with them. He thinks he finds a place that shares his values and sense of duty and feels that he belongs. But if they do not live up to those values he chooses to go elsewhere.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

Honestly, I don't think that being a Grey Warden is the core of his identity - it's the thing he latched on to in seeking his destiny.  Alistair can become very disillusioned with the Wardens, and I think he would have even become disappointed with Duncan had he continued to lead.  Alistair says that he knows that Grey Wardens make grey choices, but I don't think that the reality of that statement has really hit him in Ostagar - after all, he's only been part of the order for six months.

As long as the Grey Wardens continue to be heroic, Alistair is quite happy to stay there.  What he really wants is to be wanted and needed and to make a difference in the world and to someone.  If these opportunities don't manifest themselves in the Wardens he does leave the order.  And in the same vein, I thnk (hardened) Alistair can find all those things in being king and be quite satisfied in the role once he quits being afraid of it.

QFT  Sandi the wise woman speaks.

Where are you lately, anyway? 

[Yankee23]

Lady Jess wrote...

Siduri wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I don't disagree, but you've made the point I was trying to make.  It's not the Grey Wardens in particular that he wants. It's family.  As long as the Wardens provide that, he's dedicated to them.  But if they can't and he thinks he can find it somewhere or with someone else, then he's willing to leave the Wardens to get what he wants.

He is devoted to the Wardens, but that's incidental to what he's really looking for.

Yeah, it sounds like we basically agree. When I say that being a Grey Warden is at the core of Alistair's identity, I mean that it's what he's latched on to to provide the thing he most wants in life (family). It's actually a poor approximation of a family, but it's the best he has, and he clings to it. I guess the one place I'd disagree with you is in the suggestion that he can leave the Wardens and be okay afterwards. Leaving the Wardens destroys him. When you make him King, he's still a Warden, after all. Or am I wrong in thinking that the one ending where he actually leaves the Wardens is the wandering-drunk ending?

Leaving the wardens doesn't destroy him. Two things do that, sparing Loghain (if he's not married to Anora) turns him into a wandering drunk. Losing his love to the archdemon will make him leave the order if he's not king (or married to Anora) because it isn't the same anymore.  The only things that destroy him are related to your warden. Betrayal, or your death if he  doesn't have his duty as King to keep him.

I was trying to post almost exactly this but people at work keep coming in my office for stuff.  Lady J said it perfectly.

[tuppence95]

Interesting warden discussion.  Work is too crazed to let me participate today, but I do agree with what Sandi & Yankee just posted.  

I obviously haven't been spending enough time with Alistair lately because I only have recycled screenshots for Thursday's smut.



Siduri, I like your new profile pic.

[Lady Jess]

tuppence95 wrote...

Interesting warden discussion.  Work is too crazed to let me participate today, but I do agree with what Sandi & Yankee just posted.  

I obviously haven't been spending enough time with Alistair lately because I only have recycled screenshots for Thursday's smut.



Siduri, I like your new profile pic.

Heyyy where'd that shot come from?

[Zjarcal]

Lady Jess wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Interesting warden discussion.  Work is too crazed to let me participate today, but I do agree with what Sandi & Yankee just posted.  

I obviously haven't been spending enough time with Alistair lately because I only have recycled screenshots for Thursday's smut.

Siduri, I like your new profile pic.

Heyyy where'd that shot come from?

From here:

http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1611

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Well, with no dog and chew toys. Your idea is still original

Then I'm firing up Gimp!

I hope you're amused and not offended by the outcome...

Amused, don't worry.
I am sure Addai will appreciate it lol

Alright, just know that this is all in the spirit of good fun and that I am one of your minions!

EDIT: Fixed the middle O.

LOL Good one!  And see, he's a happy mabari. 

[Siduri]

Siduri, I like your new profile pic.

Thank you! This was my first character and the one I still consider canon. I think she's amazingly beautiful. Unfortunately I don't have any screenshots of her with Alistair -- I think they were overwritten or something? I'm not very clear on how the auto-screenshot feature works.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

Well, I think he stops being a Warden when he actually becomes king too. (Remember that the coronation doesn't happen until the archdemon is defeated.)  He doesn't, for instance, join you at the Vigil when you're the only other Warden left in all of Ferelden fighting against a new breed of darkspawn.

I would suspect he's not longer really under the jurisdiction of the Wardens at that point in most things - otherwise you as Warden Commander would have an incredible amount of authority over the King of Ferelden when you're just an arl(essa).

True, there are a couple dialogues where it's clear that "jurisdictionally" he is not a Warden anymore.  For instance if he tries to recruit you to his court (in the post-LM discussion if he's not romanced), he says "if they can make an exception for me they can make one for you."  Also in some of his grumbling if you spare Loghain and marry him to Anora.

[SurelyForth]

If anyone has a few minutes for mindless frivolity, I wrote a short thing for the Anders thread that involves the Alistair with the most comic potential (namely solo King Alistair with a male PC who did the DR himself): Advice for the King



It's sorta applicable to Smut Thursday.

[tuppence95]

SurelyForth wrote...

If anyone has a few minutes for mindless frivolity, I wrote a short thing for the Anders thread that involves the Alistair with the most comic potential (namely solo King Alistair with a male PC who did the DR himself): Advice for the King

It's sorta applicable to Smut Thursday.

I just read it while I was supposed to be working.  It's hysterical!  

[Yankee23]

tuppence95 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If anyone has a few minutes for mindless frivolity, I wrote a short thing for the Anders thread that involves the Alistair with the most comic potential (namely solo King Alistair with a male PC who did the DR himself): Advice for the King

It's sorta applicable to Smut Thursday.

I just read it while I was supposed to be working.  It's hysterical!  

Me too and I agree.

[Merilsell]

Drive by-nekkid Alistair (well not really naked but...yeah)

[Aeowyn]

Me three and I giggled with delight

[Merilsell]

Lol, that was funny. I also have a fanfiction (no smut, only implicated things and innuendo) to offer. Not mine but I loved the piece:

Conversation with Alistair

[inclemency]

They both made me laugh, and I'm still laughing out loud, Merilsell. Thanks to both of you, just what was needed on an excessively rainy Thursday.

[Lady Jess]

Ok, before I go any further on either new warden, are there any more Alitaircentric mods I'm missing out on that have appeared since Early July, or updates to existing ones that I've missed?

[Maria13]

Merilsell wrote...

Lol, that was funny. I also have a fanfiction (no smut, only implicated things and innuendo) to offer. Not mine but I loved the piece:
Conversation with Alistair

That is ace... Favourited....