39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

rak72 wrote...

But to save Ferelden, you need to get rid of the AD, so its the same thing.  But regardless, She needs a new GW - therefore the veterans from Orlais wouldn't have been any good.  If she had said something sooner, we could have conscripted the Templar by Lake Calenhad who was hitting on her, and have him do the ritual (and he would have been very happy to do so).  The Developers can go back and say what a great gal she is after the game is over and done, and try to make you feel like a jerk for not liking her, but like I said before - that compassion does not show in the game - at least not the way I played it. 

According to the Revelation comic, she only makes the final decision to approach the Warden and Alistair when she realizes there is no chance the Orlesians will make it.  There's nothing to tell us that only veterans were among the Orlesian Wardens.  They had more than Ferelden had, and had surely also been recruiting at the same time Duncan was.

There are so many bads in the end game due to the fact that it was rushed and "streamlined", and Morrigan's DR scene is one of those.  I have heard that there was supposed to be a different scene for those at Friendly/ romanced and that it got cut.  So what we all got was the neutral/ hostile scene!  It's fine to still resent or mistrust Morrigan, the game is set up so that you have to decide to either take a leap of faith and trust her or not.  It is also set up with enough ambiguity and Morrigan weakness that you can viably decide either way.

Full disclosure, I heart Morri and hope she ends up saving the world.  She is probably my favorite character after Alistair.

Too adorable to be a derp, but will have to fill in.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:16 .

[Maria13]

Derp day... Ooops...

[Briiel]

The way I see it for the DR is that maybe she holds this information from the GW's is because shes not into revealing personal stuff. Maybe she thinks that the GW's already know during there long journey together that one of them is gonna die. She see's their love blossom and as she cares for the GW she then says to herself " hey I should offer them up this solution and I can fill my mothers wishes and help out a friend".



It's not her fault we were clueless to what was in store for us. We weren't prepared for what was in store. We did the ritual at Ostagar thinking Duncan would be there to provide answers for us about who,and what we are.



but I guess that's my take on it since I try to see the good in people over saying "This person sucks". In the end with Lohgain ,He truly felt he was doing what was right for Fereldan. I personally think he just kind of snapped or maybe he had his own agenda with wanting his daughter to be queen .(take a page from Anne Bowlin(sp),King Henry 8th's 2nd wife, her father wanted his family in power and used his daughter to get it)



In any case its a person's perception on how we perceive things. We will always see things differently. In the human race ,dalish ,dwarf, etc we are all different and unique . We are all with flaws,and characteristics.

Something else to chew on . I once hated a woman because of who she was. Hate being a strong word for me. When a mutual friend pointed out how similar we were in personalities. It was a eye opener. So maybe in some cases we all have a little Morrigan in us that rubs us the wrong way.

[Maria13]

Sorry, today I don't do moral relativism. There's right and there's wrong, using other people for your own ends without them agreeing is wrong. Taking advantage of another's misfortune for your own benefit is wrong... Betraying trust and thus harming other people is wrong.

[Yankee23]

My final thought on the whole Morrigan topic. She really is a great character. Depending on how you play it she can be a conniving b**** or your best friend/love who may end up saving the world or somewhere in between and it can all be supported in game. They did an excellent job making her so versatile.

[Maria13]

Yankee23 wrote...

My final thought on the whole Morrigan topic. She really is a great character. Depending on how you play it she can be a conniving b**** or your best friend/love who may end up saving the world or somewhere in between and it can all be supported in game. They did an excellent job making her so versatile.

This I agree with. The fact that almost one year after the game was released we are still arguing about the rights and wrongs of different characters' behaviours says A LOT about the quality of the plot, dialogue and characterization....

[Lady Jess]

Yankee23 wrote...

I can't speak for anyone else, but in the case of my hnf, it's not the dr that upsets her. Yes, it is a way to save their lives and they take it - always. It's the fact that Morrigan does not share her knowledge until that last possible second. If you have a friend who knew something that important and kept it from you it's not unreasonanble for there to be some hurt and doubt as to whether your friend trusted you as much as you thought or if she really returns the same level of friendship. By the end of the game after talking to Morrigan they do remain friends. There are alot a of reasons based on Morrigan's upbringing that may explain why she didn't say anything earlier but the warden doesn't always have to be the bigger person and forgive immediately.

My mage on the other hand does not get along with Morrigan, suspected there was another reason why Flemeth sent her along and is not surprised or particularly angry at Morrigan for it.

Derp Day!

Thats my one little moment of "damn you woman WTF??" with her. But after it's done, and we're at the gates...And you have that last moment to talk to her, I usually thank her, and her response at friend level usually helps.

[rak72]

Yankee23 wrote...

My final thought on the whole Morrigan topic. She really is a great character. Depending on how you play it she can be a conniving b**** or your best friend/love who may end up saving the world or somewhere in between and it can all be supported in game. They did an excellent job making her so versatile.

I concur
 Edit: except to say that the writing  DID suck in that later on the Devs are telling us  "no no Morigan is really good, you're suppose to like her, just forget that she was a **** in the game."

Modifié par rak72, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

But to save Ferelden, you need to get rid of the AD, so its the same thing.  But regardless, She needs a new GW - therefore the veterans from Orlais wouldn't have been any good.  If she had said something sooner, we could have conscripted the Templar by Lake Calenhad who was hitting on her, and have him do the ritual (and he would have been very happy to do so).  The Developers can go back and say what a great gal she is after the game is over and done, and try to make you feel like a jerk for not liking her, but like I said before - that compassion does not show in the game - at least not the way I played it. 

According to the Revelation comic, she only makes the final decision to approach the Warden and Alistair when she realizes there is no chance the Orlesians will make it.  There's nothing to tell us that only veterans were among the Orlesian Wardens.  They had more than Ferelden had, and had surely also been recruiting at the same time Duncan was.

There are so many bads in the end game due to the fact that it was rushed and "streamlined", and Morrigan's DR scene is one of those.  I have heard that there was supposed to be a different scene for those at Friendly/ romanced and that it got cut.  So what we all got was the neutral/ hostile scene!  It's fine to still resent or mistrust Morrigan, the game is set up so that you have to decide to either take a leap of faith and trust her or not.  It is also set up with enough ambiguity and Morrigan weakness that you can viably decide either way.

Full disclosure, I heart Morri and hope she ends up saving the world.  She is probably my favorite character after Alistair.

Heh- I agree Addai.

Its impossible to pull quotes now that DA central is dead, but Gaider and the writers have sadi many times that Morrigan only sort of gives the Warden the hard sell so close to the battle because she wasn't expecting it to come so soon. Most likely she was sent with the Warden long in advance simply so she could not only become more powerful for Flemeth's body snatching sake, but also simply so she would be near a Warden if she couldn't have a wide array of choices for the DR. She seemingly was planning that the Orlesian Wardens would arrive sooner- and that there would be many of them, such that she only need seduce one young one to do the DR. I mean, I sort of doubt it would be Morrigan's number one option to do the DR with Alistair or Loghain....

And yes, as a self avowed Morrigan fan, I'll say that the DR scene totally sucks for countless reasons.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[Siduri]

I liked Morrigan a lot -- the same way I like snakes and sharks. Beautiful, streamlined things, so good at what they do! Am I going to talk my husband into having sex with a rock viper? No.

I liked Morrigan but never trusted her. I have never killed Flemeth or done the DR in any of my games. The plan with my current playthrough is to go through with the DR so that I'll have at least one save where Alistair and his warden both survive, but the thing really makes me so ill that I don't know I'll be able to do it.

That said, I have some sympathy with those who are pointing out that Morrigan doesn't rape anybody. I'd think that a Warden who hates Morrigan for the DR must hate herself too, for being selfish enough to go along with it...

Modifié par Siduri, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Lady Jess]

At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...



Alistair: Your desire is my command

Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.

[Yankee23]

Lady Jess wrote...

At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...

Alistair: Your desire is my command
Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.
[snip]

What the heck is up with the face??

[Giggles_Manically]

Yankee23 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...

Alistair: Your desire is my command
Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.
[snip]

What the heck is up with the face??

He is either constipated, or someone set him up the bomb I guess

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Lady Jess]

Watch out for Pigeons Alistair!!

[Maria13]

Siduri wrote...

I liked Morrigan a lot -- the same way I like snakes and sharks. Beautiful, streamlined things, so good at what they do! Am I going to talk my husband into having sex with a rock viper? No.

I liked Morrigan but never trusted her. I have never killed Flemeth or done the DR in any of my games. The plan with my current playthrough is to go through with the DR so that I'll have at least one save where Alistair and his warden both survive, but the thing really makes me so ill that I don't know I'll be able to do it.

That said, I have some sympathy with those who are pointing out that Morrigan doesn't rape anybody. I'd think that a Warden who hates Morrigan for the DR must hate herself too, for being selfish enough to go along with it...

Not so sure about this.

In any allegation of rape, the absence of consent to sexual intercourse on the part of the victim is critical. Consent need not be expressed, and may be implied from the context and from the relationship of the parties, but the absence of objection does not of itself constitute consent. Duress, in which the victim may be subject to or threatened by overwhelming force or violence, and which may result in absence of objection to intercourse, leads to the presumption of lack of consent. Duress may be actual or threatened force or violence against the victim or somebody else close to the victim. Even blackmail may constitute duress.

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not
use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[tuppence95]

Lady Jess wrote...

At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...

Alistair: Your desire is my command
Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.
*snip

I hate it when Alistair's face gets stuck like that!  I've got a small collection of these faces.

[Addai]

rak72 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

My final thought on the whole Morrigan topic. She really is a great character. Depending on how you play it she can be a conniving b**** or your best friend/love who may end up saving the world or somewhere in between and it can all be supported in game. They did an excellent job making her so versatile.

I concur
 Edit: except to say that the writing  DID suck in that later on the Devs are telling us  "no no Morigan is really good, you're suppose to like her, just forget that she was a **** in the game."

I dunno, I've always liked Morrigan even before the devs told me I had to.  LOL  (edit to clarify:  I don't think they are doing that.  You had enough information in the game to see that there was more to Morrigan, that's my view.)  But yes, you get limited information in the game, and this leads to head-cracking just as it does with Ostagar.  It is hard to maintain both story openness/ suspense and yet give you enough information to make a decision.  I am glad they published the comic to give us a deeper view.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Siduri]

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.

EDIT: I do think it's dub-con for sure. Oddly, it's not the sexual-transgression nature of the thing that bothers me, it's the fate of the child. Alistair might go along with the thing in the heat of the moment, but personally, I can't imagine that it wouldn't destroy him in the long run to know that he sacrificed his own bastard child--probably his ONLY child--letting its soul be "changed" in a blood magic ritual, giving it up to the tender mercies of a witch he never liked or trusted--a mother who he knows neither understands nor believes in the concept of love-- uh, yeah. Given that this is Alistair and his family issues are so huge, I just don't see it as any kind of a happy ending. The best I can imagine for my HNF in the long run is a marriage slowly soured by festering bitterness, as Alistair comes to hate her for persuading him into such a (to him) vile deed.

Modifié par Siduri, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[nos_astra]

Lady Jess wrote...
At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...

Alistair: Your desire is my command
Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.
<snip>

He can be really scary.

[Maria13]

Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.

Not saying I believe it, but it's arguable... And, yes, you make a good point, the PC is somewhat morally responsible as well...

[Sandtigress]

Maria13 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.

Not saying I believe it, but it's arguable... And, yes, you make a good point, the PC is somewhat morally responsible as well...

I haven't really explored the thought processes with all my Wardens yet, but my canon absolutely believes that anything that comes out of the Dark Ritual will be her responsibility.  She's the one who made the choice to even bring it up to Alistair, and he did it to save her, not himself.  So she is every bit as anguished about what migh tor might not happen as he is, even though she did, in fact, trust and like Morrigan.  She still didn't jump at the opportunity.

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.

Not saying I believe it, but it's arguable... And, yes, you make a good point, the PC is somewhat morally responsible as well...

This goes way too far, I think. Alistair consents freely, of his own will, and is perfectly capable of saying no, which he can do. Knowing all the information, he will agree, and without coercion. He would prefer that he didn't have to, but he's willing to do it to save the warden or Riordan.

[Giggles_Manically]

My canon let Loghain die as the hero he once was, and told Morrigan to not let the door hit her on the way out.



I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

[Addai]

Siduri wrote...

That said, I have some sympathy with those who are pointing out that Morrigan doesn't rape anybody. I'd think that a Warden who hates Morrigan for the DR must hate herself too, for being selfish enough to go along with it...

Yes, I always picture various degrees of regret and self-loathing in my Wardens and Alistair.  A very hard, pragmatic person might be able to say "I was just doing what I had to do to survive," but even Morrigan is struggling (if her emotions have been engaged by the Warden) and survival is her watchword.  So it is supposed to be hard.

Somewhere I read a dev saying that Bioware stories are about human weakness.  The DR is set up very well to push those buttons.  That's the beauty of fantasy settings, after all- you get characters into spots where the human sides can be explored.  Alistair actually takes it all pretty well, given his setup as a sensitive idealist.  I really like that he says not just "you might die" (to the Warden) but that he's doing it to possibly save Riordan.  He is trying to do something good even against his better judgment.

And I'm rambling now, so out...

[errant_knight]

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .