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The Alistair Gush Thread: *Squee*


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#8426
Briiel

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tuppence95 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

At Castle Cousland before I started Elea completely over...

Alistair: Your desire is my command
Elea: Uhhh...no, no it's fine, ummm...it can wait. Really.
*snip


I hate it when Alistair's face gets stuck like that!  I've got a small collection of these faces.

Image IPB


Are you feeding dear Alistair lemons?? He has such a "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" look..

Umm well atleast its a Alistair pic:whistle: not my intention tho >.>. Will do better at a screenie with my new warrior noble.

Modifié par Briiel, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .


#8427
Addai

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Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

Not many people could take that hard a position.  I'm reminded of a story by George R. R. Martin called Doorways where a girl is jumping through portals a step ahead of her former slave masters who are pursuing her.  She meets random guy and after he sees the struggle she is maintaining to survive, asks her if it is all worth it just for one more hour.  I can't remember the exact scene but I think she looks at a sunrise and says that yes, it is worth it.

OTOH, now that I'm thinking of SF short stories, there is one by Orson Scott Card that haunts me called The Shepherd.  It shows that there really are worse things than death.  Because we don't know what the OGB will mean, and unless you're completely Chantry-steeped it could mean something good, there is enough uncertainty that taking the deal is not cheap in any way IMO.

#8428
Lady Jess

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:


*wants that in her game!*

#8429
Yankee23

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

[snip]


Wow Errant, these are great. How the heck do manage such great facial expressions in your pics?

#8430
nos_astra

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Siduri wrote...
EDIT: I do think it's dub-con for sure. Oddly, it's not the sexual-transgression nature of the thing that bothers me, it's the fate of the child. Alistair might go along with the thing in the heat of the moment, but personally, I can't imagine that it wouldn't destroy him in the long run to know that he sacrificed his own bastard child--probably his ONLY child--letting its soul be "changed" in a blood magic ritual, giving it up to the tender mercies of a witch he never liked or trusted--a mother who he knows neither understands nor believes in the concept of love-- uh, yeah. Given that this is Alistair and his family issues are so huge, I just don't see it as any kind of a happy ending. The best I can imagine for my HNF in the long run is a marriage slowly soured by festering bitterness, as Alistair comes to hate her for persuading him into such a (to him) vile deed.

Ouch. I would agree with you, the DR would eat away at him.

I can't say much about Morrigan. I appreciate her character and her snarkiness but ... I'm not sure her cold behaviour would make me interested in getting to know her better. She is not trustworthy, just like Alistair says. I may be wrong about her, maybe Flemeth is the real threat, maybe the DR will help stopping her. Who knows?

I have my one character who's friends with everyone but she's not my favourite and I really can't decide on what ending is best for her.

#8431
Sandtigress

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

My canon let Loghain die as the hero he once was, and told Morrigan to not let the door hit her on the way out.

I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.


Yeah, me personally agrees with you.  My canon does too and if it were simply a matter of her living or dying, she would jump for the chance and say "I'll take the final blow, that's fine" - which she does say.  Her stumbling block is in knowing that Alistair won't let her do it (you could call it meta-gaming but I see it as she sees it in his eyes - he won't let her die if he has a say about it).

Her dilemma then becomes "do I take Morrigan's offer or let the man I love die for me" and she opts to take the matter to Alistair, though she nearly walks out without mentioning it to him.  As I said earlier, she ends up feeling horrifically guilty because he's doing something against his principles to save her, and all she wants to do is save him.

I think I like complicated RPs....or I just spend way too much time thinking about this stuff for her.

#8432
errant_knight

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Lady Jess wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:


*wants that in her game!*


If I can figure out a graceful way to get them standing (which may not be doable from those positions and with the available animations), I might try doing it it down the road,

#8433
errant_knight

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Yankee23 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

[snip]


Wow Errant, these are great. How the heck do manage such great facial expressions in your pics?

Thanks! I use a combination of animations and spoken lines (which have their own facial animation), combining them and changing weights until I get what I want.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .


#8434
Maria13

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errant_knight wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."


Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.


Not saying I believe it, but it's arguable... And, yes, you make a good point, the PC is somewhat morally responsible as well...

This goes way too far, I think. Alistair consents freely, of his own will, and is perfectly capable of saying no, which he can do. Knowing all the information, he will agree, and without coercion. He would prefer that he didn't have to, but he's willing to do it to save the warden or Riordan.


Consent is a tricky issue, the above may go too far but his consent is not free, it is vitiated or impaired as you yourself say: "He would prefer that he didn't have to..." if it were up to Alistair alone I think he would tell Morrigan where to go... but if he says no his love may die. Not free, then.

#8435
tuppence95

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

*snip


I love this!  :wub:

#8436
Yankee23

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:


*wants that in her game!*


If I can figure out a graceful way to get them standing (which may not be doable from those positions and with the available animations), I might try doing it it down the road,


Fade out and fade in are wonderful things. Although depending on when the dialogue would start it may be a little odd.

#8437
Giggles_Manically

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Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

Not many people could take that hard a position.  I'm reminded of a story by George R. R. Martin called Doorways where a girl is jumping through portals a step ahead of her former slave masters who are pursuing her.  She meets random guy and after he sees the struggle she is maintaining to survive, asks her if it is all worth it just for one more hour.  I can't remember the exact scene but I think she looks at a sunrise and says that yes, it is worth it.

OTOH, now that I'm thinking of SF short stories, there is one by Orson Scott Card that haunts me called The Shepherd.  It shows that there really are worse things than death.  Because we don't know what the OGB will mean, and unless you're completely Chantry-steeped it could mean something good, there is enough uncertainty that taking the deal is not cheap in any way IMO.

Why do people keep reverting to calling me a" chantry sheep" whenever I dont agree on the DR?

I think its a terrible risk to let something with that amount of power loose, especially into someones hands who wont tell me why, and who has an evil monster for a mother. I am sorry but if I have to die to end a blight, or to stop the OGB from getting loose than I would.

Maybe thats just my upbringing though, If I were to join the military I would be fifth generation.

#8438
Maria13

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Damn! I wish I'd discovered earlier that the Theirin shield has two red dogs rampant (presumably Mabaris)... The fun I would have had with that... Still, it's never too late...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:52 .


#8439
Giggles_Manically

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Sandtigress wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My canon let Loghain die as the hero he once was, and told Morrigan to not let the door hit her on the way out.

I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.


Yeah, me personally agrees with you.  My canon does too and if it were simply a matter of her living or dying, she would jump for the chance and say "I'll take the final blow, that's fine" - which she does say.  Her stumbling block is in knowing that Alistair won't let her do it (you could call it meta-gaming but I see it as she sees it in his eyes - he won't let her die if he has a say about it).

Her dilemma then becomes "do I take Morrigan's offer or let the man I love die for me" and she opts to take the matter to Alistair, though she nearly walks out without mentioning it to him.  As I said earlier, she ends up feeling horrifically guilty because he's doing something against his principles to save her, and all she wants to do is save him.

I think I like complicated RPs....or I just spend way too much time thinking about this stuff for her.

I cant play unless I have a deep RP going on.
Some of my wardens take the offer like my City Elf who could not live without Alistair, or my Human Noble who trusted Morrigan.  Some dont like my Dalish who thought "yes I want to bring the god back of the people who saw mine enslaved" or my DC who would have at one time but had been changed enough to care for people and saw his duty as a warden to end the blight.

#8440
Siduri

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

Image IPB


Image IPB


I *love* this. Thank you so much for fixing these up! Protective!Alistair is so... yeah. I'll be in my bunk. :wub:

#8441
Maria13

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She said you were Chantry steeped giggles...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .


#8442
Sarah1281

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You have a point, but Morrigan does say it very clearly before the final battle: "This was what my mother intended when she sent me with you". That line, in my interpretation, shows that even if she was genuinely surprised to be sent away after Ostagar, she knew it was because of the DR.

I agree that she knew when she was sent that her mother wanted her to do the DR. When you ask why her mother sent her then and risked her getting killed instead of having her sent along right before the final battle, she says she doesn’t know and I don’t think that’s unbelievable. Maybe Flemeth thought that the Warden and Alistair would be more likely to do it if they knew Morrigan better or that the pair were going to get themselves killed early on if it weren’t for Morrigan and it would be worth risking losing her next body so as to avoid the Blight devouring the land. Morrigan’s not really the kind of person to make the connection ‘They’ll be more likely to do this because of the personal element’ as even when she tries to manipulate you with that in the DR scene she does really strange ones like ‘Oh, think about the glory!’



Morrie does not really show any compassion at all. She sees Sten and Jowan as top of the evolutionary tree predators and she wants to restore them to that position. As I said when in Cariden's forge you propose she be the first victim she does an immediate about turn...

Branka isn’t proposing that they go off and force anybody to become a golem. Yes, it’s likely that the Anvil will be abused and that will end up happening (and does with Harrowmont w/ Anvil) but there is no point in forcing anyone until people stop volunteering. Morrigan thinks that golems would be useful against the Blight (which they will be) and essential for the dwarves who keep losing ground and haven’t reclaimed any territory from the darkspawn in generations (which is also will be). You can shut her down by threatening to force her into becoming one but she’s hardly suggesting that that be done to anybody.



Also, since Sten and Jowan have managed to be captured and brought down they are clearly no longer showing themselves as the most fit. That she wants to help them anyway because she sees them as strong and can identify with them IS compassion. Also, at the Circle you can talk her down from her ‘the mages let the templars enslave them so why shouldn’t we let them kill them?’ position by pointing out that if it weren’t for Flemeth she’d be in the same position and she’ll agree and stop talking about killing them.



Who says she can't save your life without the OGB? Morrigan doesn't exactly share does she? Fact is, she has knowledge essential to your future and she uses it for her own ends. I think my analogy that she's an opportunistic collaborator and throughly inmoral stands...

Let’s think about this for a moment. Why does killing the Archdemon kill you? Because when the Archdemon dies it’s soul goes into the nearest darkspawn or Grey Warden. It possesses the darkspawn and is reborn and it kills the GW – supposedly destroying their soul in the process – because the GW has a soul and the two can’t coexist. Why does the DR save you? Because the DR pulls the soul of the Archdemon from you and into the zygote. How, aside from the DR, could she possibly save you? The soul has to go somewhere and that can’t be stopped. All Morrigan can do is change where it goes and focus it into her child through the ritual.



Saying ‘Oh, I can help you without getting anything in return but I’m going to force you to give me something in return anyway or else I’ll leave you to die’ is a HORRIBLE analogy for Morrigan’s ‘Oh, I can help you live but the only way to do that is by impregnating me and having the Archdemon’s soul go into that zygote.’



So getting you to do the dirty with Flementh and still not telling you about the fact that you will die when taking down the Archdemon is justified because she's protecting herself... Oh, what about we're all in this together? If you knew she would use you thusly would you take her with you? Again, how do we even know she's protecting herself? Perhaps she's just using you to knock off a rival...

You realize that I’m not even claiming that killing Flemeth is self-defense because we really don’t know for sure (but I believe that it is)? I’m saying that if she knows that you let Flemeth live after Flemeth knows that Morrigan sent you to kill her then it’s not an unreasonable assumption to make that Flemeth will come after Morrigan. Hell, Flemeth herself mentions that very thing before she leaves.



If I knew Morrigan would ask me to kill Flemeth would I take her with me? Of course I would. She’s useful and you only get to the point of being asked to kill Flemeth if you accede to another request she makes to look for the Black Grimoire. If you say no you lose approval but she won’t leave. If you say yes but don’t really look or if you stumble across it you don’t tell her or give it to her then she won’t leave. I think the fact that she only asks you to kill Flemeth once she reads the Grimoire means that she’s found something in there that freaks her out even if she’s lying about what. And I have no problem ‘killing’ Flemeth as even Morrigan tells you she’ll be back and given that Flemeth might decide to take vengeance on you for that lying about that is not really in Morrigan’s best interest.



So using you sexually to conceive a child is OK? I don't agree.

Being a sperm donor is not okay in your world? Okay then. Keep in mind that she’s not raping you. She’s asking you to be her sperm donor which will save your life and you decide whether to do it or not.



Why wouldn't she if she wants the OGB so badly? It's simply retribution in kind, she's taking full advantage of your predicament to use and humiliate you... Do the same back...

Why would you make her beg if you want to live so badly? How in the world is she taking advantage of your predicament and humiliating you? She’s not asking YOU to beg her to save your life, after all.


#8443
Sarah1281

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rak72 wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

My final thought on the whole Morrigan topic. She really is a great character. Depending on how you play it she can be a conniving b**** or your best friend/love who may end up saving the world or somewhere in between and it can all be supported in game. They did an excellent job making her so versatile.

I concur
 Edit: except to say that the writing  DID suck in that later on the Devs are telling us  "no no Morigan is really good, you're suppose to like her, just forget that she was a **** in the game."

Well, Good Is Not Nice.

#8444
AnniLau

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Lady Jess wrote...

Watch out for Pigeons Alistair!!

Image IPB


It's a bad idea to look up when anticipating low-flying pigeons.

Oh, yukidama, look what I found... :whistle:

Image IPB

#8445
Sialater

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Tactically speaking, there's no guarantee you or Alistair are reaching the Archdemon alive. There's actually a dialogue choice that hints at this, IIRC, when you're talking to him. You mission is to end the Blight by any means necessary. Old Gods and the Chantry are not within the Grey Warden's mission statement.

However, if you count the choice to high for your characters, that's entirely plausible. My Wardens chose the DR for Ferelden and Thedas. Ending the immediate threat was more important to them. Living life afterward with Alistair is just icing.


ETA:  And I don't agree Morrigan knew the details.  She did get two of her mother's books in your journeys after all.

Modifié par Sialater, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .


#8446
Maria13

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Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."


Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.

EDIT: I do think it's dub-con for sure. Oddly, it's not the sexual-transgression nature of the thing that bothers me, it's the fate of the child. Alistair might go along with the thing in the heat of the moment, but personally, I can't imagine that it wouldn't destroy him in the long run to know that he sacrificed his own bastard child--probably his ONLY child--letting its soul be "changed" in a blood magic ritual, giving it up to the tender mercies of a witch he never liked or trusted--a mother who he knows neither understands nor believes in the concept of love-- uh, yeah. Given that this is Alistair and his family issues are so huge, I just don't see it as any kind of a happy ending. The best I can imagine for my HNF in the long run is a marriage slowly soured by festering bitterness, as Alistair comes to hate her for persuading him into such a (to him) vile deed.


Re your edit, don't think this is "odd" I think it's a serious ethical consideration...  And I agree that that is what it would do to the relationship potentially...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:05 .


#8447
errant_knight

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Maria13 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."


Don't buy it for a second myself, but if you believe that Alistair was raped, then your warden is also guilty as Alistair won't do the DR without pressure from the PC.


Not saying I believe it, but it's arguable... And, yes, you make a good point, the PC is somewhat morally responsible as well...

This goes way too far, I think. Alistair consents freely, of his own will, and is perfectly capable of saying no, which he can do. Knowing all the information, he will agree, and without coercion. He would prefer that he didn't have to, but he's willing to do it to save the warden or Riordan.


Consent is a tricky issue, the above may go too far but his consent is not free, it is vitiated or impaired as you yourself say: "He would prefer that he didn't have to..." if it were up to Alistair alone I think he would tell Morrigan where to go... but if he says no his love may die. Not free, then.

Personally, I think it is. He can, and does, say no. There is a whole bunch of dialogue with numerous ways in which he says no. One can pick choices where he doesn't, but it has to be that way because if the programmers could create a fully functioning A.I., they'd be working for NASA or someone like that, not Bioware. The line choices mechanism is as close as a game can come, but that doesn't negate the fact that he will say no unless he decides he wants to do it. My PC didn't want to leave her parents, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't her choice to go. She did it because she was asked, just as Alistair does the DR when asked if the circumstances are correct, not because she was coerced.

#8448
Yankee23

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errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

[snip]

Image IPB


Ha, it just occured to me that if something like this ever makes it it game I'll REALLY need to rember to adjust NBAIO before doing rescue the queen. Image IPB

#8449
Sarah1281

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Maria13 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

I liked Morrigan a lot -- the same way I like snakes and sharks. Beautiful, streamlined things, so good at what they do! Am I going to talk my husband into having sex with a rock viper? No.

I liked Morrigan but never trusted her. I have never killed Flemeth or done the DR in any of my games. The plan with my current playthrough is to go through with the DR so that I'll have at least one save where Alistair and his warden both survive, but the thing really makes me so ill that I don't know I'll be able to do it.

That said, I have some sympathy with those who are pointing out that Morrigan doesn't rape anybody. I'd think that a Warden who hates Morrigan for the DR must hate herself too, for being selfish enough to go along with it...


Not so sure about this.

In any allegation of rape, the absence of consent to sexual intercourse on the part of the victim is critical. Consent need not be expressed, and may be implied from the context and from the relationship of the parties, but the absence of objection does not of itself constitute consent. Duress, in which the victim may be subject to or threatened by overwhelming force or violence, and which may result in absence of objection to intercourse, leads to the presumption of lack of consent. Duress may be actual or threatened force or violence against the victim or somebody else close to the victim. Even blackmail may constitute duress.

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in its landmark 1998 judgment used a definition of rape which did not
use the word 'consent': "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive."

 You have GOT to be ****ing kidding me. She is not threatening you. She is not blackmailing you. She is not in any way responsible for your problems. Riordan said 'Hey, guess what! One of us is going to die. I'll try to make it me but no promises.' Morrigan says 'Yeah, dying would suck. Would you like to not die? If you have a child with me then you won't die.'

If you're going by coercive circumstances then what about female Wardens who use the love card to convince Alistair to do it? Morrigan isn't raping Alistair by any stretch of the imagination. She doesn't even talk to him about it. If you really think that rape is involved because of coercion then guess who's doing the coercing? 

#8450
Lady Jess

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Sialater wrote...

Tactically speaking, there's no guarantee you or Alistair are reaching the Archdemon alive. There's actually a dialogue choice that hints at this, IIRC, when you're talking to him. You mission is to end the Blight by any means necessary. Old Gods and the Chantry are not within the Grey Warden's mission statement.

However, if you count the choice to high for your characters, that's entirely plausible. My Wardens chose the DR for Ferelden and Thedas. Ending the immediate threat was more important to them. Living life afterward with Alistair is just icing.


ETA:  And I don't agree Morrigan knew the details.  She did get two of her mother's books in your journeys after all.


Add to that, that there, at the time of the DR are only THREE Wardens in the entire country. There are still going to be straggler darkspawn to contend with, Orlesian GW may be ticked off about being turned away. Why should they come to Ferelden at all once the blight stops.  Having as many of the three alive at the end as possible, in order to rebuild the Ferelden order, and clean up the aftermath of the blight, and...in peace, stand vigilant, is, to me, worth the price. And if Alistair is made king, that leaves just my warden.