39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Jess]

Poor Alistair is feeling left out and confused....

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

Not many people could take that hard a position.  I'm reminded of a story by George R. R. Martin called Doorways where a girl is jumping through portals a step ahead of her former slave masters who are pursuing her.  She meets random guy and after he sees the struggle she is maintaining to survive, asks her if it is all worth it just for one more hour.  I can't remember the exact scene but I think she looks at a sunrise and says that yes, it is worth it.

OTOH, now that I'm thinking of SF short stories, there is one by Orson Scott Card that haunts me called The Shepherd.  It shows that there really are worse things than death.  Because we don't know what the OGB will mean, and unless you're completely Chantry-steeped it could mean something good, there is enough uncertainty that taking the deal is not cheap in any way IMO.

Why do people keep reverting to calling me a" chantry sheep" whenever I dont agree on the DR?

I think its a terrible risk to let something with that amount of power loose, especially into someones hands who wont tell me why, and who has an evil monster for a mother. I am sorry but if I have to die to end a blight, or to stop the OGB from getting loose than I would.

Maybe thats just my upbringing though, If I were to join the military I would be fifth generation.

I don't think that was talking about you specifically. The OGB, obviously, has the soul of one of the old gods who was reputed to be an enemy of the Maker. It is entirely possible at this point that the OGB could be something good...but if someone was deeply indoctrinated by Chantry teachings then it doesn't matter if the OGB grew up to be the biggest saint in the world and single-handedly wiped out all darkspawn because it's an enemy of the Maker and darkspawn are the Maker's divine punishment.

[errant_knight]

Yankee23 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady D. wanted to see some pics from Fort Drakon that were more illustrative of a relationship between the PC and Alistair than the in-game scene. Here they are (unless photobucket takes exception to them. I can see them thinking 'this can't be good....') Waiting for the PC to wake:

*wants that in her game!*

If I can figure out a graceful way to get them standing (which may not be doable from those positions and with the available animations), I might try doing it it down the road,

Fade out and fade in are wonderful things. Although depending on when the dialogue would start it may be a little odd.

I can't see that working here--too short a time frame. I'll have to play around with it at some point.

Thanks, Tuppence, Siduri (extra points to you for the Firefly reference. )

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Lady Jess]

Painful Derp!

[nos_astra]

errant_knight wrote...
I can't see that working here--too short a time frame. I'll have to play around with it at some point.

Thanks, Tuppence, Siduri (extra points to you for the Firefly reference. )

They could stand up while the camera is showing something else? The guard walking towards the cell?

Modifié par klarabella, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[errant_knight]

klarabella wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I can't see that working here--too short a time frame. I'll have to play around with it at some point.

Thanks, Tuppence, Siduri (extra points to you for the Firefly reference. )

They could stand up while the camera is showing something else? The guard walking towards the cell?

That would be a good idea! Even if he isn't approaching, yet, which I would have to check the exact lines relating to the escape plan, he could be shown in the distance. There could be a noise, then cut to it. Or I could have the guy in the next cell approach the bars, or something.... Yes, a cut-away would work. Thanks, Klarabella! I'll get on that as soon as part one of my story is up. *has been procrastinating on the last two chapters*

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[Sialater]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Tactically speaking, there's no guarantee you or Alistair are reaching the Archdemon alive. There's actually a dialogue choice that hints at this, IIRC, when you're talking to him. You mission is to end the Blight by any means necessary. Old Gods and the Chantry are not within the Grey Warden's mission statement.

However, if you count the choice to high for your characters, that's entirely plausible. My Wardens chose the DR for Ferelden and Thedas. Ending the immediate threat was more important to them. Living life afterward with Alistair is just icing.


ETA:  And I don't agree Morrigan knew the details.  She did get two of her mother's books in your journeys after all.

Add to that, that there, at the time of the DR are only THREE Wardens in the entire country. There are still going to be straggler darkspawn to contend with, Orlesian GW may be ticked off about being turned away. Why should they come to Ferelden at all once the blight stops.  Having as many of the three alive at the end as possible, in order to rebuild the Ferelden order, and clean up the aftermath of the blight, and...in peace, stand vigilant, is, to me, worth the price. And if Alistair is made king, that leaves just my warden.

I actually pick that hinting dialog option and never have to use a persuade check on Alistair.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

Not many people could take that hard a position.  I'm reminded of a story by George R. R. Martin called Doorways where a girl is jumping through portals a step ahead of her former slave masters who are pursuing her.  She meets random guy and after he sees the struggle she is maintaining to survive, asks her if it is all worth it just for one more hour.  I can't remember the exact scene but I think she looks at a sunrise and says that yes, it is worth it.

OTOH, now that I'm thinking of SF short stories, there is one by Orson Scott Card that haunts me called The Shepherd.  It shows that there really are worse things than death.  Because we don't know what the OGB will mean, and unless you're completely Chantry-steeped it could mean something good, there is enough uncertainty that taking the deal is not cheap in any way IMO.

Why do people keep reverting to calling me a" chantry sheep" whenever I dont agree on the DR?

I think its a terrible risk to let something with that amount of power loose, especially into someones hands who wont tell me why, and who has an evil monster for a mother. I am sorry but if I have to die to end a blight, or to stop the OGB from getting loose than I would.

Maybe thats just my upbringing though, If I were to join the military I would be fifth generation.

LOL  A little sensitive, are we?  Sarah already covered it I think, I said that because it is the Chantry that assumes the old gods are evil.  Maybe the Maker is evil and we need the old gods around to kick his ass in the final showdown, how are you to know?  Of course, you could also see the old gods as responsible for the Blights and decide they are evil independent of the Chantry.

For my elven Wardens, however, Morri's statement "there are things in this world worth preserving" zings them pretty good.  "Just kill it dead" works fine as a failsafe philosophy.  But you could also decide that you'd rather see what an untainted old god is like before deciding it should not have a chance to exist.

Then again, I don't think Morrigan is an "evil monster."  That is the bottom line.  You have to decide if you trust Morrigan or not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Then again, I don't think Morrigan is an "evil monster."  That is the bottom line.  You have to decide if you trust Morrigan or not.

I think he was referring to Flemeth when he said "evil monster".

[Maria13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrie does not really show any compassion at all. She sees Sten and Jowan as top of the evolutionary tree predators and she wants to restore them to that position. As I said when in Cariden's forge you propose she be the first victim she does an immediate about turn...

Branka isn’t proposing that they go off and force anybody to become a golem. Yes, it’s likely that the Anvil will be abused and that will end up happening (and does with Harrowmont w/ Anvil) but there is no point in forcing anyone until people stop volunteering. Morrigan thinks that golems would be useful against the Blight (which they will be) and essential for the dwarves who keep losing ground and haven’t reclaimed any territory from the darkspawn in generations (which is also will be). You can shut her down by threatening to force her into becoming one but she’s hardly suggesting that that be done to anybody.

Also, since Sten and Jowan have managed to be captured and brought down they are clearly no longer showing themselves as the most fit. That she wants to help them anyway because she sees them as strong and can identify with them IS compassion. Also, at the Circle you can talk her down from her ‘the mages let the templars enslave them so why shouldn’t we let them kill them?’ position by pointing out that if it weren’t for Flemeth she’d be in the same position and she’ll agree and stop talking about killing them.

Who says she can't save your life without the OGB? Morrigan doesn't exactly share does she? Fact is, she has knowledge essential to your future and she uses it for her own ends. I think my analogy that she's an opportunistic collaborator and throughly inmoral stands...

Let’s think about this for a moment. Why does killing the Archdemon kill you? Because when the Archdemon dies it’s soul goes into the nearest darkspawn or Grey Warden. It possesses the darkspawn and is reborn and it kills the GW – supposedly destroying their soul in the process – because the GW has a soul and the two can’t coexist. Why does the DR save you? Because the DR pulls the soul of the Archdemon from you and into the zygote. How, aside from the DR, could she possibly save you? The soul has to go somewhere and that can’t be stopped. All Morrigan can do is change where it goes and focus it into her child through the ritual.

Saying ‘Oh, I can help you without getting anything in return but I’m going to force you to give me something in return anyway or else I’ll leave you to die’ is a HORRIBLE analogy for Morrigan’s ‘Oh, I can help you live but the only way to do that is by impregnating me and having the Archdemon’s soul go into that zygote.’

So getting you to do the dirty with Flementh and still not telling you about the fact that you will die when taking down the Archdemon is justified because she's protecting herself... Oh, what about we're all in this together? If you knew she would use you thusly would you take her with you? Again, how do we even know she's protecting herself? Perhaps she's just using you to knock off a rival...

You realize that I’m not even claiming that killing Flemeth is self-defense because we really don’t know for sure (but I believe that it is)? I’m saying that if she knows that you let Flemeth live after Flemeth knows that Morrigan sent you to kill her then it’s not an unreasonable assumption to make that Flemeth will come after Morrigan. Hell, Flemeth herself mentions that very thing before she leaves.

If I knew Morrigan would ask me to kill Flemeth would I take her with me? Of course I would. She’s useful and you only get to the point of being asked to kill Flemeth if you accede to another request she makes to look for the Black Grimoire. If you say no you lose approval but she won’t leave. If you say yes but don’t really look or if you stumble across it you don’t tell her or give it to her then she won’t leave. I think the fact that she only asks you to kill Flemeth once she reads the Grimoire means that she’s found something in there that freaks her out even if she’s lying about what. And I have no problem ‘killing’ Flemeth as even Morrigan tells you she’ll be back and given that Flemeth might decide to take vengeance on you for that lying about that is not really in Morrigan’s best interest.

So using you sexually to conceive a child is OK? I don't agree.

Being a sperm donor is not okay in your world? Okay then. Keep in mind that she’s not raping you. She’s asking you to be her sperm donor which will save your life and you decide whether to do it or not.

Why wouldn't she if she wants the OGB so badly? It's simply retribution in kind, she's taking full advantage of your predicament to use and humiliate you... Do the same back...

Why would you make her beg if you want to live so badly? How in the world is she taking advantage of your predicament and humiliating you? She’s not asking YOU to beg her to save your life, after all.

It's good to see that even Morrigan recognises the limits of her darwinism.

I do know what the mechanics of the DR are, what I am saying that it is not certain that Morrigan does not have another way of saving her teammates' lives, and if she did, would she give it to them? Certainly not, because what she wants is her own selfish end, not to do good or benefit others. This is not HORRIBLE it's a fact she wants to gain at your expense.

On Flemeth, she's just getting you to do her dirty work, using you again.

We are not arguing about "My world", whatever that may be. We're discussing a game called DA:O.

Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will.  In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is still coercing him.

As to the rape point, see above. As to the Warden pursuading Alistair, yes, they too are morally responsible.

If Alistair and the PC weren't threatened with death if they achieve their aim of slaying the AD they would not consent to the DR. That is taking advantage of someone's predicament for your own ends...

She is humiliating her teammates because she is coercing them in to doing something that they would not otherwise consent to do, having sex with her, which can be seen as humiliating...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm just not comfortable with it, and I am not willing to do it to just save my life or a friends. Life ends whether it is tommorow or 30 years down the road it ends. I dont feel right taking such a risk to extend my life at all.

Not many people could take that hard a position.  I'm reminded of a story by George R. R. Martin called Doorways where a girl is jumping through portals a step ahead of her former slave masters who are pursuing her.  She meets random guy and after he sees the struggle she is maintaining to survive, asks her if it is all worth it just for one more hour.  I can't remember the exact scene but I think she looks at a sunrise and says that yes, it is worth it.

OTOH, now that I'm thinking of SF short stories, there is one by Orson Scott Card that haunts me called The Shepherd.  It shows that there really are worse things than death.  Because we don't know what the OGB will mean, and unless you're completely Chantry-steeped it could mean something good, there is enough uncertainty that taking the deal is not cheap in any way IMO.

Why do people keep reverting to calling me a" chantry sheep" whenever I dont agree on the DR?

I think its a terrible risk to let something with that amount of power loose, especially into someones hands who wont tell me why, and who has an evil monster for a mother. I am sorry but if I have to die to end a blight, or to stop the OGB from getting loose than I would.

Maybe thats just my upbringing though, If I were to join the military I would be fifth generation.

LOL  A little sensitive, are we?  Sarah already covered it I think, I said that because it is the Chantry that assumes the old gods are evil.  Maybe the Maker is evil and we need the old gods around to kick his ass in the final showdown, how are you to know?  Of course, you could also see the old gods as responsible for the Blights and decide they are evil independent of the Chantry.

For my elven Wardens, however, Morri's statement "there are things in this world worth preserving" zings them pretty good.  "Just kill it dead" works fine as a failsafe philosophy.  But you could also decide that you'd rather see what an untainted old god is like before deciding it should not have a chance to exist.

Then again, I don't think Morrigan is an "evil monster."  That is the bottom line.  You have to decide if you trust Morrigan or not.

I'm not sensitive, just tired of people calling me brainwashed for not seeing the obvious truth they see.
I dont see Morrigan as evil, I see Flemeth as evil and the power that can be unleashed far to great.

People can juggle semantics all they want at the end of the day the blight is ended, and there is nothing running around that I let out. I dont care if Morrigan desires it, I dont want it out I tell her that and its over. Do I wish to seek my death, not really. Will I take a risk just to extend my life? The answer is again no. 

Morrigan can claim whatever she wants, Flemeth can sing a jaunty tune, people can proclaim the DR off the mountain tops, the fact of the matter is I dont agree with it, and I have problems with it.
At this point it is only speculation and what ifs, I can say the OG can be bad, you can say it will be good. 

Neither of us knows, and both of us take a risk, its that simple.

[errant_knight]

This is where the 'agree to disagree' thing works. It avoids a descent into fightin' words.
Repost of Alistair in Amaranthine:

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will.  In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is coercing him in any event.

...What?
When did Morrigan ever coerce you or Alistair? If the DR is done and Alistair accepts, you only have yourself to blame.

Coercion is when you force someone to do something against their will. When did Morrigan force you or Alsitair to do the ritual?  She may have asked something of Alistair that he wouldn't like to do, but at the end of the day, you persuade Alistair to do it. There is no coercion involved.

Check your definitions, Morrigan is most certainly not coercing anyone to do anything. 

[Lady Jess]

Sialater wrote...

I actually pick that hinting dialog option and never have to use a persuade check on Alistair.

I've never used the persuade on Alistair. He agrees easily enough without it if you're friends or romanced. I start with either "You know I love you" or "we friends right?". Though some call that emotional blackmail, I see it as reassurance that my PC wouldn't even dream of asking without reassuring him right from the start.

[Yankee23]

errant_knight wrote...

This is where the 'agree to disagree' thing works. It avoids a descent into fightin' words.

This. I know I have been participating too, but I think we are flirting with dangerously off topic.

[Lady Jess]

Brady bunch moment...



Alistair says "Morrigan Morrigan Morrigan!!! what about me???"

[Sarah1281]

I do know what the mechanics of the DR are, what I am saying that it is not certain that Morrigan does not have another way of saving her teammates' lives, and if she did, would she give it to them? Certainly not, because what she wants is her own selfish end, not to do good or benefit others. This is not HORRIBLE it's a fact she wants to gain at your expense.

So you're pissed at her because you suspect that she might have a non-OGB way to save you? Why not hate on Wynne, Irving, Lanaya and all the other mages you know who MIGHT be keeping something like this from you. Why in the world would there be another way to save you? The soul must go SOMEWHERE and no one else has ever lived through ending the Blight so we're already lucky that this worked.

On Flemeth, she's just getting you to do her dirty work, using you again.

Yeah, she asks you to save her from someone she claims (and who might be) interested in stealing her body. You can say no. If you freely agree you're doing her a favor and not being manipulated into doing someone else's dirty work.

We are not arguing about "My world", whatever that may be. We're discussing a game called DA:O.



Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will. In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is coercing him in any event.

...And just how do you think sperm donors worked before modern technology? If you wanted a baby but the father wasn't going to be a part of the child's life then they were a veritable sperm donor.



Alistiar DOES choose to have sex with her of his own free will. He only does this to save everyone's life but Morrigan, who also does it of her own free will, only does it for the ritual. If Alistair came up to her and said 'Hey, let's ****' then she would normally say no. It's because of this that they're doing this and Morrigan doesn't even speak to him so how does she coerce him? YOU coerce him.

As to the rape point, see above.

I did and I think it's highly insulting.

If Alistair and the PC weren't threatened with death if they achieve their aim of slaying the AD they would not consent to the DR. That is taking advantage of someone's predicament for your own ends...

They're not being threatened by death by MORRIGAN. It's what their order does. If they can't suck it up and do what the other four GWs who ended a Blight did then that's not Morrigan's fault. All of my Wardens do the ritual so I'm hardly judging those that do. You and Alistiar have something that you want: the ability to kill the Archdemon without dying. Morrigan has something that she wants: an OGB. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement and not her taking advantage of you.

She is humiliating her teammates because she is coercing them in to doing something that they would not otherwise consent to do, having sex with her, which can be seen as humiliating...

So you think it's humiliating to have sex with her? Maybe it is. Is it better than dying? If so, deal with it. If not, don't do the ritual.

[Yankee23]

NBA Derp!

Edit for Inappropriateness!!!

Modifié par Yankee23, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[rak72]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I actually pick that hinting dialog option and never have to use a persuade check on Alistair.

I've never used the persuade on Alistair. He agrees easily enough without it if you're friends or romanced. I start with either "You know I love you" or "we friends right?". Though some call that emotional blackmail, I see it as reassurance that my PC wouldn't even dream of asking without reassuring him right from the start.

I agree with you about that line.  If you don't  use it, he sees you as just someone else using him to get what they want.  Paraphrased "you don't want to die tomorrow, fine, I'll take the killing blow".  But if you tell him I love/friend you, he sees you are not asking him because you see him as a useful idiot, but rather that you are asking because you care about him.

[beggargirl]

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.



*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will.  In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is coercing him in any event.

...What?
When did Morrigan ever coerce you or Alistair? If the DR is done and Alistair accepts, you only have yourself to blame.

Coercion is when you force someone to do something against their will. When did Morrigan force you or Alsitair to do the ritual?  She may have asked something of Alistair that he wouldn't like to do, but at the end of the day, you persuade Alistair to do it. There is no coercion involved.

Check your definitions, Morrigan is most certainly not coercing anyone to do anything. 

Why are you mentioning "me", we are discussing a game. Let's depersonalize this.

I did

1. To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

Arguably she is using pressure and/or intimidation.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I'm not sensitive, just tired of people calling me brainwashed for not seeing the obvious truth they see.
I dont see Morrigan as evil, I see Flemeth as evil and the power that can be unleashed far to great.

People can juggle semantics all they want at the end of the day the blight is ended, and there is nothing running around that I let out. I dont care if Morrigan desires it, I dont want it out I tell her that and its over. Do I wish to seek my death, not really. Will I take a risk just to extend my life? The answer is again no. 

Morrigan can claim whatever she wants, Flemeth can sing a jaunty tune, people can proclaim the DR off the mountain tops, the fact of the matter is I dont agree with it, and I have problems with it.
At this point it is only speculation and what ifs, I can say the OG can be bad, you can say it will be good. 

Neither of us knows, and both of us take a risk, its that simple.

Ooookaaaay.  I, for one, never said that refusing the DR wasn't a viable game option.  Personally I find it a little dull.  "Hero dies, game over" is not nearly as much fun as "hero makes morally questionable choice to save life of a Grey Warden and has to live with consequences".

You are not just voting to extend your own life, BTW.  You're voting on whether one of your comrades gets to live or die.  I believe in your case, you let Loghain take the final blow, so you've decided you're going to sacrifice a life so that you can feel morally safe.  That is FINE.  From one perspective, it is a heroic thing to do.  From another, it is high-minded and wasteful and possibly callous.  If it weren't a real choice, the game would not be as good and we wouldn't have anything to talk about.  I'm perfectly willing to sign on the dot and say refusing the DR is a solid way to look at things.  Even if you do refuse it out of Chantry training, there's nothing that says that's not a valid RP perspective.

[Lady Jess]

Ok seriously, I'm usually the last person to complain about OTness, really, I'm guilty of derailment and participation. But keep in mind we HAVE been locked down before for not staying on topic and even though Alistair is part of the DR equation, what's really being discussed here is trusting Morrigan or not, and I'd really hate to come refresh my page after the excitement of mopping and dusting to find a big ol' lock on the door.

[Siduri]

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

[beggargirl]

Siduri wrote...

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

You don't understand.  I'm pretty sure I WAS at 100 love.  
 Edit: He was hardened for the first time in any of my game though...

Modifié par beggargirl, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:49 .