39010 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Great picture, Lady Jess. Uh oh.... ToP.... *fires up the toolkit*

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[mellifera]

All I have to say is that it is laughable to take such a moral high ground when you're just as implicit in the whole situation as she is. And to bring up rape is just offensive as hell. If you don't do the DR, fine, keep on with the righteous indignation. But the PC who takes the offer has no one to blame but themselves. But whatever. Alistair, yes?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
1. To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

Arguably she is using pressure and/or intimidation.

When did Morrigan ever intimidate or threaten you?
She is warning your PC of the possibility of her or Alistair drying because of the taint she had nothing to do with. Your PC decides how much she values her life and Alistair's, she isn't threatening her to do anything.

You might argue that she is using pressure by warning to leave. But she said she was going to leave anyways, regardless of what your PC decides, so that pressure is moot.
And that definiton is severily lacking. The use of force is not mentioned and that's generally what coercion is. To use force to get what you want. Morrigan never did that.

[Merilsell]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will.  In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is coercing him in any event.

...What?
When did Morrigan ever coerce you or Alistair? If the DR is done and Alistair accepts, you only have yourself to blame.

Coercion is when you force someone to do something against their will. When did Morrigan force you or Alsitair to do the ritual?  She may have asked something of Alistair that he wouldn't like to do, but at the end of the day, you persuade Alistair to do it. There is no coercion involved.

Check your definitions, Morrigan is most certainly not coercing anyone to do anything. 

I agree here with KoP. It's your choice, as simple it is. You choose to speak with Alistair and he choose to do it (or not) after your talk with him. Of course he wouldn't do that in a normal situation, for Alistair hates Morrigan as we all know. And the act itself is probably all but pleasant for him, because he has to sleep with a woman he hates. But this is a live or death situation and he is doing this that no one of you has to die, and maybe even can save the life of the woman he loves.

Will he feel bad about it afterwards? Hell sure he will, maybe even regret it for the time being. But I think after the AD is slain and both of you are still alive and he still has the woman he loves on his side, a part of him will be grateful as well. No matter how much he wishs for a huge package of brainbleach to forget about the icky icky- part.

[errant_knight]

Jesus H., folks! Let it go. We've clearly arrived ath the fightin' words part of the program.

[Sarah1281]

Siduri wrote...

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

You wanted to hear him say 'No, my dear, my love for you is so pure and true that I would rather one of us DIE than ever lower myself to sleep with another woman for the sole purpose of saving one of our lives'?

[Aeowyn]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Maria13]

Sarah1281 wrote...


 We are not arguing about "My world", whatever that may be. We're discussing a game called DA:O.

Morrigan is not asking Alistair to be a sperm donor she's asking him to have intercourse with her, something he would not do of his own free will. In any event even if she were asking him to be a sperm donor and he would not normally consent to it of his own free will, she is coercing him in any event.


...And just how do you think sperm donors worked before modern technology? If you wanted a baby but the father wasn't going to be a part of the child's life then they were a veritable sperm donor.

Alistiar DOES choose to have sex with her of his own free will. He only does this to save everyone's life but Morrigan, who also does it of her own free will, only does it for the ritual. If Alistair came up to her and said 'Hey, let's ****' then she would normally say no. It's because of this that they're doing this and Morrigan doesn't even speak to him so how does she coerce him? YOU coerce him.

As to the rape point, see above.

I did and I think it's highly insulting.

If Alistair and the PC weren't threatened with death if they achieve their aim of slaying the AD they would not consent to the DR. That is taking advantage of someone's predicament for your own ends...

They're not being threatened by death by MORRIGAN. It's what their order does. If they can't suck it up and do what the other four GWs who ended a Blight did then that's not Morrigan's fault. All of my Wardens do the ritual so I'm hardly judging those that do. You and Alistiar have something that you want: the ability to kill the Archdemon without dying. Morrigan has something that she wants: an OGB. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement and not her taking advantage of you.

She is humiliating her teammates because she is coercing them in to doing something that they would not otherwise consent to do, having sex with her, which can be seen as humiliating...

So you think it's humiliating to have sex with her? Maybe it is. Is it better than dying? If so, deal with it. If not, don't do the ritual.

Thanks.  I do know what happened before sperm donors...

It's disturbing that you can't engage in an argument without insulting your opponent.

I do not agree with your free and easy definition of "free will", it's simply too loose.

It's not a "mutually beneficial arrangement" if if you were truly free you would not consent to it.

Doesn't matter that Morrie isn't the one applying the external pressure, she is still taking advantage of her teammates for her own end.

So you find international law on rape "highly insulting"?

It is humiliating to have sex with somebody you would not otherwise have sex with if you were not under some form of pressure.  I'm surprised you don't appreciate this point.

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As to the rape point, see above.

I did and I think it's highly insulting. 

Let's tone it down, yes?  I've even seen fan art of the DR that refers to it as rape.  I agree it's a little strong, but Morrigan does present the DR in rather manipulative fashion.  Maybe she's doing it for your own good or because it must be done, but even she recognizes that it is "something terrible" (quoting the Revelation comic now).

To her credit, she doesn't use any kind of magic on you and is taking a chance on her people skills and your faith in her, which is a pretty big chance.  But the way the scenes are written, it is perfectly viable to see the whole thing as a grand set-up and hence a manipulation.  The dialogue choices are there for you to accuse her of this (for example, "got what you wanted, did you?").

Modifié par Addai67, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[beggargirl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

You wanted to hear him say 'No, my dear, my love for you is so pure and true that I would rather one of us DIE than ever lower myself to sleep with another woman for the sole purpose of saving one of our lives'?

Nope.  But I've let him talk me out of it before and it has always ended with him thanking the Maker with a sigh of relief.  This was my first playthrough with Hardened Alistair.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
1. To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

Arguably she is using pressure and/or intimidation.

When did Morrigan ever intimidate or threaten you?
She is warning your PC of the possibility of her or Alistair drying because of the taint she had nothing to do with. Your PC decides how much she values her life and Alistair's, she isn't threatening her to do anything.

You might argue that she is using pressure by warning to leave. But she said she was going to leave anyways, regardless of what your PC decides, so that pressure is moot.
And that definiton is severily lacking. The use of force is not mentioned and that's generally what coercion is. To use force to get what you want. Morrigan never did that.

So you challenged me to find a definition, I did and now you are not happy with it... My argument is that Morrie is putting pressure on Wardens to do the DR.  The pressure of impending death if you slay the AD. Not that she is the source of that pressure...

[beggargirl]

Edit : Double post.

Modifié par beggargirl, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

You wanted to hear him say 'No, my dear, my love for you is so pure and true that I would rather one of us DIE than ever lower myself to sleep with another woman for the sole purpose of saving one of our lives'?

You have such a skill at putting words right into peoples' mouths...it's...uncanny. And slightly disturbing really.

[Lady Jess]

Alistair doesn't have a keyboard to bang his head on, so he found a cooperative ogre instead.

[Merilsell]

Woaw I think its time to repost said comic once again for relevance.

The revelation. Drawn by Aimo, written by David Gaider

And now we all calm down a bit, yes?

Modifié par Merilsell, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
So you challenged me to find a definition, I did and now you are not happy with it... My argument is that Morrie is putting pressure on Wardens to do the DR.  The pressure of impending death if you slay the AD. Not that she is the source of that pressure...

Ok, you say that she isn't the source of the pressure and still say she is pressuring you with it? How does that make sense?

She is confronting you with the reality that the Wardens imposed on you. One that you just discovered a while ago. So how can you logically come to the conclusion that Morrigan is pressuring you with it?  It's the PC who decides the value of her life or of Alistair's. Morrigan is simply telling you that one of them is going to die. It's a fact. And she has a solution. You want it? Do it. You dont? Then don't.

She isn't pressuring. She is bluntly stating the facts.
If Morrigan was the one who made you drink darkspawn blood, then you might have an argument.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Lady Jess]

It is Derp monday yes?

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
So you challenged me to find a definition, I did and now you are not happy with it... My argument is that Morrie is putting pressure on Wardens to do the DR.  The pressure of impending death if you slay the AD. Not that she is the source of that pressure...

Ok, you say that she isn't the source of the pressure and still say she is pressuring you with it? How does that make sense?

She is confronting you with the reality that the Wardens imposed on you. One that you just discovered a while ago. So how can you logically come to the conclusion that Morrigan is pressuring you with it?  It's the PC who decides the value of her life or of Alistair's. Morrigan is simply telling you that one of them is going to die. It's a fact. And she has a solution. You want it? Do it. You dont? Then don't.

She isn't pressuring. She is bluntly stating the facts.
If Morrigan was the one who made you drink darkspawn blood, then you might have an argument.

Perfect sense: "If you don't have sex with me I'll turn you over to the lynch mob outside" kind of sense... When I'm not part of the lynch mob and I don't even agree with them but I'd like to have sex with you so let's take advantage.

Modifié par Maria13, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[rak72]

[tuppence95]

Whoa!  Remember that mod warned us just recently about going OT.

Yuki, I love the body tattoos on your elf!

Derp Day!

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Siduri wrote...

beggargirl wrote...

Ugh. My last game Alistair convinced my warden that he shouldn't be talked into doing the DR, so my warden apologized for asking, and then he YELLED at me and said I must have been stupid for ever thinking he would consider going through with such a thing.

*cries* ... I wasn't expecting that.

I'm actually glad to hear it! I always have him at 100 (Love) by that stage in the game and it...bothers me how ready he seems to accept the DR. I only brought it up because I wanted to hear him dismiss it out of hand!

You wanted to hear him say 'No, my dear, my love for you is so pure and true that I would rather one of us DIE than ever lower myself to sleep with another woman for the sole purpose of saving one of our lives'?

You have such a skill at putting words right into peoples' mouths...it's...uncanny. And slightly disturbing really.

I'm not trying to put words into other people's mouths. When I saw that someone brought it up hoping that he'd immediately shoot it down, I thought that was strange. If they didn't want to do it, why bring it up? If Alistair immediately says no way and doesn't even think about trying to save his life and that of his LI then I know that that would bother me a lot and I certainly wouldn't appreciate him trying to remain and die pure for me. I was actually asking if that was how they meant it or something else.

I do not agree with your free and easy definition of "free will", it's simply too loose.

Then we have a different definition of free will. I think the fact that if you're not convincing enough Alistair refuses to do it means that he has plenty of free will.

It's not a "mutually beneficial arrangement" if if you were truly free you would not consent to it.

See, by 'mutually beneficial arrangement' I meant that both sides (mutual) got something out of the deal (beneficial arrangement). You live. Morrigan gets her child. Please explain why this isn't the case and how you really don't get anything at all out of the DR? 

Doesn't matter that Morrie isn't the one applying the external pressure, she is still taking advantage of her teammates for her own end.

And you're agreeing to it. Would you prefer that she not even offer the ritual and just watch you die knowing she could save you? Would that make her a better person? 

So you find international law on rape "highly insulting"? 

No. I find the fact that you are comparing Alistair agreeing to have sex with Morrigan to rape as highly insulting.

It is humiliating to have sex with somebody you would not otherwise have sex with if you were not under some form of pressure.  I'm surprised you don't appreciate this point.

You realize that Morrigan would never have sex with Alistair unless it was for the DR, right? So that's just as humilating for her. I feel that they have to decide if sparing themselves that humilation is worth dying for or not getting her OGB. In many cases, he decides it isn't and she always decides that it isn't. If you think that the humiliation of having an ulterior motive for sleeping with someone makes it automatically rape then it would have to be mutual.

[Lady Jess]

OMG seriously enough with the rape crap, it's a seriously traumatizing REAL LIFE crime, committed with violence and force and causing permanent emotional and physical scarring for LIFE and has NO place in a conversation over whether or not to do the DR with a bunch of friggin PIXELS. Rape victims get NO CHOICE your PC and Alistair DO get a choice. YOU choose whether to approach him with it or tell her to shove it, YOU choose whether to use a persuade check or not, and HE chooses to do or not do what YOU chose to ask him. Now can we seriously get back on topic before the thread gets locked again???

[Siduri]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You wanted to hear him say 'No, my dear, my love for you is so pure and true that I would rather one of us DIE than ever lower myself to sleep with another woman for the sole purpose of saving one of our lives'?

Like I said above, it's not the sleeping with another woman aspect that really bothers me. It's the sacrificing his child aspect. Yes, I wanted to hear him say he would never do that.

Modifié par Siduri, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Sialater]

rak72 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I actually pick that hinting dialog option and never have to use a persuade check on Alistair.

I've never used the persuade on Alistair. He agrees easily enough without it if you're friends or romanced. I start with either "You know I love you" or "we friends right?". Though some call that emotional blackmail, I see it as reassurance that my PC wouldn't even dream of asking without reassuring him right from the start.

I agree with you about that line.  If you don't  use it, he sees you as just someone else using him to get what they want.  Paraphrased "you don't want to die tomorrow, fine, I'll take the killing blow".  But if you tell him I love/friend you, he sees you are not asking him because you see him as a useful idiot, but rather that you are asking because you care about him.

Hardened or not, I've never had a problem convincing him to take it.  I've never not hardened him, so I don't know what non-hardened Alistair will say at that point, but Hardened Al agrees quite readily with no persuade checks. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
Perfect sense: "If you don't have sex with me I'll turn you over to the lynch mob outside" kind of sense...

...again, what?

When did Morrigan threaten to turn you or Alistair over to anyone?