39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well whether we could see this from the tower or not is not that important now, as this, imo, pretty much shows that Loghain could not have flanked them. Anyways thank you!

Ohhh damn, I have to say you're right. CRAP I hate when that happens! Grumbles, He still dies for most of my wardens, but it's becoming less and less about Ostagar.

Its almost always the slavery issue that does it for me, the others I can somewhat stand for.
Slavery NO.
Proud member of the Twin Lamps since 2004.

Had it on a T shirt but lost it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cmessaz wrote...
 I'm only gonna say this....if it wasn't for the fact that Loghain didn't even TRY....I'd be on his bandwagon.

@ LadyJess.
Well of course there are plenty of reasosn to want him dead other than Ostagar.
But many refer to that as the main reason, hence me attempting to refute it or at the very least cast doubt.

[cmessaz]

Yes it was a risk...but he couldn't have tried then retreated? I just think he made a huge mistake...ntm it was his plan to begin with...and he wouldn't accept help from the Orlesian wardens. YES wardens. In light of recent developments, things are a bit different, and it seems Ostagar was just a pile of FAIL. But...to me Loghain deserves to die for his crimes. Not just at Ostagar.

I understand people's points of view on him, of course. But....I don't share them *shrugs*

Modifié par cmessaz, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Aeowyn]

I don't think it would be easy to try and retreat considering the mass of darkspawn that came. They would probably be surrounded within minutes.

[cmessaz]

I personally just can't see not even trying. Not to mention his lack of regard for the corpse of Cailen...I have a hard time feeling for him. Just me, like I said, others are entitled to their opinion.

I need something clarified...I'm not 100 percent sure. Now..in modern times, if say, a countries army was about to join battle against another army that is say, 10 times it's size, would it be acceptable for a member of said undersized army to leave the area, saying they didn't stand a chance? I really am curious if this would be a viable excuse, of course you would have some say that he did the right thing (especially if the battle was lost), but when you come down to it, wouldn't he/she be charged with desertion?

Modifié par cmessaz, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Lady Jess]

cmessaz wrote...

Yes it was a risk...but he couldn't have tried then retreated? I just think he made a huge mistake...ntm it was his plan to begin with...and he wouldn't accept help from the Orlesian wardens. YES wardens. In light of recent developments, things are a bit different, and it seems Ostagar was just a pile of FAIL. But...to me Loghain deserves to die for his crimes. Not just at Ostagar.

I understand people's points of view on him, of course. But....I don't share them *shrugs*

I was just talking to my husband about this, and no, you really can't. Not realistically. Once you commit to a fight it is 10x harder to get out and regroup. The safest tactic for your men is to retreat when you see your plan is not feasible, regroup, then go at it from another strategy. That's why soldiers are given pretty high awards for actions during ambushes in war zones, because once in enemy contact, getting everyone out alive, and without letting the enemy get away is difficult as hell. (Brag of the day: he was awarded a bronze star with valor for this exact thing /endbrag)

I pretty much kill Loghain for
A: supporting Howe as a HN
B: Slavery as Dalish/City Elf
C: Torturing innocents (except Vaughn) on everyone else.
D: Putting a bounty on my head...grrrr

[KnightofPhoenix]

cmessaz wrote...

I personally just can't see not even trying.

It doesn't work like that. You can't just "try" when you think a battle is lost. The fate of an entire country is on your shoulders.

Yes it was his plan, but he did not anticipate such huge numbers.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I personally just can't see not even trying.

It doesn't work like that. You can't just "try" when you think a battle is lost. The fate of an entire country is on your shoulders.

Yes it was his plan, but he did not anticipate such huge numbers.

You cant disengage an army when its in combat easily.
In history the vast majority of losses came during a retreat so it would be even worse to try it.

Its not like dipping a toe in the water to see if its hot, its like doing a cannon ball.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I personally just can't see not even trying.

It doesn't work like that. You can't just "try" when you think a battle is lost. The fate of an entire country is on your shoulders.

Yes it was his plan, but he did not anticipate such huge numbers.

Well you can, if you're the type of commander that sees his troops as nothing but numbers, god knows THEY exist. But a GOOD commander, that sees his troops as human lives, no, you weigh the risk alot more heavily.

[Aeowyn]

Just out of curiosity Lady J, what would your husband do if he was in Loggy's place?

[sylvanaerie]

Wonders why the thread has turned to Loghain yet again...is this some law of Dragon Age inevitability that the man takes over every thread? *points to Mods* do we really want them shutting this one down for OT'ness?

Here, have an Ali being derpy pic...(when is derp day btw?) Okay so its Rolistair...*headdesk* what do you people want from me? I lurves my Rolistair...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You cant disengage an army when its in combat easily.
In history the vast majority of losses came during a retreat so it would be even worse to try it.

Its not like dipping a toe in the water to see if its hot, its like doing a cannon ball.

Which is why I think Loghain is smart. He planned this so that if he has to retreat, he can do it safely.
Planing escape routes ahead of time is the mark of a true general.  Not just charging and hope you win.

[cmessaz]

Sorry, I just don't see what he did as heroic. Maybe he was right, whatever. But I just don't get how it was a good thing at all, especially his complete disregard for the body of a king. Now, I have and do spare him, as sometimes men deserve a chance to redeem themselves. However, I will never see him a hero.

@Lady J- Yeah supporting Howe is a big thing for my noble females
too..even my male who marries Anora and spares Loghain has a really hard
time with that.

I would just like to add....there is little point to arguing. Everyone will see things their way. Now, back to the Alistair squee!

Modifié par cmessaz, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Lady Jess]

cmessaz wrote...

Sorry, I just don't see what he did as heroic. Maybe he was right, whatever. But I just don't get how it was a good thing at all, especially his complete disregard for the body of a king. Now, I have and do spare him, as sometimes men deserve a chance to redeem themselves. However, I will never see him a hero.

Well I'll never see him as a hero...past the River Dane battle which he earned.  I always end up seeing him as a hero that's fallen from grace. And sometimes even use THAT as reason for killing him, I'm not sure he COULD live with himself long term.

[cmessaz]

Lady Jess wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Sorry, I just don't see what he did as heroic. Maybe he was right, whatever. But I just don't get how it was a good thing at all, especially his complete disregard for the body of a king. Now, I have and do spare him, as sometimes men deserve a chance to redeem themselves. However, I will never see him a hero.

Well I'll never see him as a hero...past the River Dane battle which he earned.  I always end up seeing him as a hero that's fallen from grace. And sometimes even use THAT as reason for killing him, I'm not sure he COULD live with himself long term.

Yes, and I think this is how I am. What I mean is, people hail him a hero for Ostagar. Yes he had earned his place before.

[LadyDamodred]

Having read the other post about what happened during the battle and whatnot, this is my take on it:

It is entirely possible, and I have said this before, that Loghain had no choice but to retreat from the Battle at Ostagar.  My issues are that there didn't appear to be a back-up plan, besides retreat (maybe there was no other possible plan, but I find it hard to believe that of Ferelden's greatest general), that Loghain for all his ruthlessness, did nothing to psychically stop Cailan, and then what happened after the battle.

After the battle, he blamed the loss and Cailan's death on the Grey Wardens, taking absolutely no responsibility for what was his plan.  Maybe there was nothing else he could have done, but, goddamnit, own up to it, man!  Blaming your failures on others and trying to silence them is the mark of a poor leader.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled Alistair.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
 that Loghain for all his ruthlessness, did nothing to psychically stop Cailan

I agree, he should have killed Cailan or incapacitated him long before Ostagar.

[sylvanaerie]

Yes, remember this guy, the one this thread is ACTUALLY about?

[cmessaz]

Well, no matter what our view...I think we can agree on this:

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
 that Loghain for all his ruthlessness, did nothing to psychically stop Cailan

I agree, he should have killed Cailan or incapacitated him long before Ostagar.

No, not killed.  One does not commit regicide of your best friend's son just because you disagree with him.  Quite frankly, he shoulda cold-clocked Cailan before the battle and gotten him the hell out.  Would Cailan have been pissed?  Sure.  But Loghain can weather that.

[tuppence95]

cmessaz wrote...

Sorry, I just don't see what he did as heroic. Maybe he was right, whatever. But I just don't get how it was a good thing at all, especially his complete disregard for the body of a king. Now, I have and do spare him, as sometimes men deserve a chance to redeem themselves. However, I will never see him a hero.

I would just like to add....there is little point to arguing. Everyone will see things their way. Now, back to the Alistair squee!

I don't think you can call it heroic.  He was pretty much already insane with paranoia by this point.  Even Cauthrien eventually at LM admits that he was no longer in his right mind.  On that night in Ostagar, he came so close to destroying Ferelden.  I know it wasn't absolute knowledge that only the Grey Wardens could save them from the blight and no one knew the specific reasons, but he had heard that this was the case.  And if you look at the view of his army retreating, it wasn't like they were so impossibly outnumbered.

I just think it's pointless to argue whether he was "smart" or "right."  If it wasn't for Alistair and our warden managing to survive, Loghain's retreat WOULD have detroyed Ferelden, and there's nothing so smart about that.

*edit - an OT picture

Modifié par tuppence95, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:00 .

[cmessaz]

Good point LD and Tuppence.

[Siduri]

I know this is off topic, but I'd buy Loghain as a superb military commander making the hard choices a lot more easily if he seemed to have any grasp of the concept of "walls." Hint: they go BETWEEN you and the enemy, not behind you so that the darkspawn have something to crush you against.



Of course he's hardly alone in this as nobody on the entire battlefield seems to consider actually USING the fortifications at Ostagar for anything other than a scenic backdrop to gory death.



Even on my first playthrough I was doing my best to find anybody sane and scream at them "LISTEN TO YOUR SCOUTS! LISTEN TO THEM!!" Sadly the closest you can come is "Is it possible these men have important information?" and even THEN you can't say it to anybody who matters.



Also, Loghain's choices weren't limited to a full retreat or a full commitment. He could have sent a wedge of his force into the fray to retrieve Cailan and then pull back...BEHIND THE WALLS. Granted that it was Cailan's own stupidity that put him in that position, but Loghain probably did have the ability to save him.

[Lady Jess]

Aeowyn wrote...

Just out of curiosity Lady J, what would your husband do if he was in Loggy's place?

Haha  you just made my husband RP for the first time ever. Congrats!

His answer:

First, you don't allow personal (even if they ARE deserved) prejudices get in the way of your duty as a military leader. Which at this point is defending Ferelden from the Darkspawn. He would have waited for the Orlesians. But since Loghain didn't we go on to the plan...

He WOULD have retreated upon seeing how badly outnumbered they were, that the beacon was too late,  and that flanking them was not possible, and would result in being surrounded and outnumbered with no retreat available.  LIve to figh another day. Retreat, regroup.

HOWEVER. Whereas Loghain put his energy into politics, grasping for the throne, inciting a civil war, and blocking the Wardens at every path. He would have been preparing the country to defend itself, and united the land himself.  Instead of bickering with nobles, he would be fighting the real threat, the darkspawn.

In other words, he'd have retreated THEN but still have been preparing to fight the blight. That's where Loghain commited his crime, he neglected his DUTY as a military leader to deal in politics.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...

I know this is off topic, but I'd buy Loghain as a superb military commander making the hard choices a lot more easily if he seemed to have any grasp of the concept of "walls." Hint: they go BETWEEN you and the enemy, not behind you so that the darkspawn have something to crush you against.

No, as there is a pass "beneath" Ostsgar that the darkspawn can use to compeltely bypass the fortifcations:



There was no walls behind Cailan's army.

Anyways, this is the last place I want to discuss Loghain in, so I'll retire