39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Alistair with a city elf is definently well done, plus compaing Ali to Vaughan, is very unfair.
Besides being human the two are not anything alike.

I played my City Elf as anti-human but Alistiar actually turned her around on the issue, mainly the rose, and ninja kiss did it, but he helped.

Yeah, I was hoping that the turnaround was possible. I'm very early into it so I'm still raw from the Vaughan incident. The problem is that *I* know that Alistair and Vaughan are completely different sorts of people, but Lyra (my CEF) does not. All she sees is another human male of somewhat similar appearance who also thinks he's a wit. And her experience with humans in general so far would not lead her to think the best of them anyway. I am trying to play this as much as possible as though I am seeing it through her eyes, i.e., without the sense of perspective that comes from having played it before.

Well for both my CE the Vaughan issue ended around about here:


However yes the CE origin is good at making your elf anti human.
For Vallana (first CE) she was not thriled about Alistair but she did like how goofy and well human he was.

Cyrus dosent care, to busy killing things, he is not anti-human just very, very, very Violent.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I think Alistair is probably different enough in his attitude towards the CE that he can avoid too many comparisons to most human men she might have came across. I've never not romanced Alistair because of the CE origin. ( also I never thought of vaughn as blond or Alistair as particularly aristocratic to be honest. I never gave that much thought) I would think Zev with his openess towards sexual things might be more freaky for the CE. There's a lot of RP potential as to how the CE might feel about it and get over her past or not. Meh, I don't know. Whatever I say will probably be jumped on and ripped apart by someone trying to disprove it anyway. ( not you, just what tends to happen) Have some nakedstair.

Aww. . .thanks.

Yeah, I seem to have a different idea than most people as to what constitutes "blond". All I know is that when I saw Vaughan I was reminded physically (but only physically) of Alistair, which made his (Vaughan's) behaviour all the more disturbing to me. I fully expect Alistair to change my CE's opinion of humans (or at least force her to admit that they're not all condescending oppressive swine).

I still can see my CE becoming closer with Zevran in this playthrough than my DC did. Hmm. . .

[sylvanaerie]

I've never been able to play a racist in the game. My characters are pretty open minded giving everyone they meet a sporting chance to prove they were decent people. So I never had any problems with anyone, dwarf, elf or human PC notwithstanding. My PCs DO dislike people for their actions (Loghain, Isolde, Branka, Howe) but not for being human/dwarf/elf.



Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

[errant_knight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair with a city elf is definently well done, plus compaing Ali to Vaughan, is very unfair.

Who said it was about fairness or logic? She had a horrible experience with a human man and so it is not at all unreasonable that her reaction COULD be to be reflexively anti-shem and that would be Vaughan's fault for, if nothing else, exacerbating things. Maybe in a year she'd get over it to romance Alistair and maybe not.

I guess it depends on whether her character is a person who tries to be fair. She may be a person who feels bad about knee-jerk reactions, or she may be a less reasoning sort of person. Both are plausible. I suspect she'd know before a year was out, though. They spend a great deal of time together.

[cmessaz]

Speaking of city elves, the city elf female/Alistair scene is done. Sadly the screenshots I got for it suck, but it's a really cute scene.

Modifié par cmessaz, 19 août 2010 - 01:56 .

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I've never been able to play a racist in the game. My characters are pretty open minded giving everyone they meet a sporting chance to prove they were decent people. So I never had any problems with anyone, dwarf, elf or human PC notwithstanding. My PCs DO dislike people for their actions (Loghain, Isolde, Branka, Howe) but not for being human/dwarf/elf.

Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

Yes, but if you start out as an imperfect character with flaws of innate and/or environmental type, and then allow your character's experiences to change her and hopefully make her a better person, that's way more interesting dramatically than just being perfect from the start and never changing. Ask any actor which characters they prefer playing and they'll tell you, they prefer an arc to a flat line.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

Exactly. I don't intend for my PC to keep this attitude forever, I was just wondering if anyone else had found that the CE's Origin story kills the idea of romantic involvement with Alistair outright, whether or not she decides to be friends.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

[Giggles_Manically]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

Well most of my PCs are out of their depth around the party they do get over it.
Besides the whole elven/human LI thing is pretty deep lore wise, but not in game.

My CE who romanced Alistair was not happy about being around human males for a while, but Alistair is a good ambassador as it were.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

Well I'm only in Ostagar (Round 1) at the moment. . .do I get a stay of execution?

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 19 août 2010 - 02:06 .

[sylvanaerie]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

Exactly. I don't intend for my PC to keep this attitude forever, I was just wondering if anyone else had found that the CE's Origin story kills the idea of romantic involvement with Alistair outright, whether or not she decides to be friends.

*Nod* exactly, the journey being one that changes her viewpoint.  Now THAT is interesting and believable Storytelling to me.

[Giggles_Manically]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

Well I'm only in Ostagar (Round 1) at the moment. . .do I get a stay of execution?

Ostagar is still early so no biggie, Alistair does change a good deal later on though, so it gets harder to hate on him later.
Besides dude needs a hug, seriously.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

You seem to be underestimating how long it takes people to get over things like that. Someone who has no good experiences with humans and plenty of horrible experiences may very well be racist. They're not going to be able to instantly meet Alistair, realize he's a swell guy, and poof! No more human issues. Even if she got to get to know and trust Alistair, Leliana, Wynne ect. it's not going to necessarily mean that her human issues are gone. It's incredibly unfair to call people who struggle against racist beliefs that have been ingrained into them for years (in this case because of intense oppression) stupid.

[cmessaz]

Zyanic wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Speaking of city elves, the city elf female/Alistair scene is done. Sadly the screenshots I got for it suck, but it's a really cute scene.

you're such a tease!  ( I love it!)

2 scenes to go. I really need help with the dwarves, since I have never even done the commonor origin. I need commonor and dwarf noble saves arriving in the frostback mountains, romance active, any approval. can anyone help? I also could use any ideas.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Hating Alistair for the actions of some **** in Denerim is as racist as some of the things people complain about Leliana saying when she talks about the non human PC. Worse in fact, because at least Leliana apologizes and tries to change her PoV afterward especially since its ingrained in her as 'norm' not as something due to her experiences with them.

It's not necessarily hatred just a reflexive dislike or wariness. Sure it's racist but who wants a perfect Mary Sue PC? Flaws add depth to characters and it doesn't have to be something she can't overcome.

"Reflexive dislike" or "wariness" implies it will be over once she gets to know him.  It isn't going to last the months it takes to get the game storyline accomplished.  If the PC is still "hating on him" by the time Landsmeet comes around thats racism, not a knee jerk reaction to his race.  That is what I am talking about, persistant hatred for his race simply because he is human, not because he did anything to the PC (or hating all "shems" for the actions of one stupid, stupid man-child).

IMO that makes the PC not only racist but stupid as well, unwilling to move beyond their skewed vision of the world.

You seem to be underestimating how long it takes people to get over things like that. Someone who has no good experiences with humans and plenty of horrible experiences may very well be racist. They're not going to be able to instantly meet Alistair, realize he's a swell guy, and poof! No more human issues. Even if she got to get to know and trust Alistair, Leliana, Wynne ect. it's not going to necessarily mean that her human issues are gone. It's incredibly unfair to call people who struggle against racist beliefs that have been ingrained into them for years (in this case because of intense oppression) stupid.

So do you believe reflexive dislike and wariness would last months?  Those words imply that she doesn't trust/know him.  I never said those wouldn't be a consideration.  What I was pointing out is getting to know someone beyond their race wouldn't be hard considering they travel together for months.  I don't expect the PC to get over her feelings in a day or immediately after meeting any of the companions.  I never said that.  If she chooses to cling to her past and ignore what she is seeing day after day on the road with this person (Leliana, Alistair, Sten WHOMEVER) then that is stupid. 

[errant_knight]

PCs can be stupid. I just don't want to play one who is.

[Sarah1281]

cmessaz wrote...

Zyanic wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Speaking of city elves, the city elf female/Alistair scene is done. Sadly the screenshots I got for it suck, but it's a really cute scene.

you're such a tease!  ( I love it!)

2 scenes to go. I really need help with the dwarves, since I have never even done the commonor origin. I need commonor and dwarf noble saves arriving in the frostback mountains, romance active, any approval. can anyone help? I also could use any ideas.

The DC origin is basically Dust Town, the Taverns to threaten/kill some guy, the carta, the Proving, prison in the carta, then caught in the commons and Duncan conscripts you. There is no way you could really have a romantic moment in Dust Town, I don't think. She could show him the Proving arena where she attracted Duncan's attention, I guess, or introduce him to Rica (I'm not sure if little Endrin is doable) at the Palace. The mother should definitely be absent.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 août 2010 - 02:19 .

[cmessaz]

@Sarah, I was considering a walk outside the city, in the frostback mountain area. Maybe browsing the markets there?

@zyanic- yeah thats exactly my problem here. I haven't even done the commonor origin. I have at least done the noble one though.

Modifié par cmessaz, 19 août 2010 - 02:31 .

[tmp7704]

sylvanaerie wrote...

So do you believe reflexive dislike and wariness would last months?

Depending on a person, these can last for years and generations -- not to point out the obvious but say, the slavers in southern US didn't get over their prejudice within months even though they lived next to the very people they despised and considered inferiors for years and years. Our minds can work as powerful filtering devices, making us ignore good things we see about people we "know" aren't good, and vice versa, we'll often willingly refuse to see bad in who we believe to be good. This can be viewed as stupid but i think it's more of result how we're built -- we rely very much on patterns and beliefs we establish in our minds, because that's the way we've shaped (and survived/excelled) as species.

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 août 2010 - 02:31 .

[cmessaz]

An introduction to her sister in the palace? Is that good?

[Yankee23]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

New subtopic of the overall supertopic of Alisquee. . .

So I just started my second playthrough of DA:O, this time as a City Elf (see new avatar). In my first playthrough I was a Dwarf Commoner and my character squeed on Alistair almost immediately and they had a very head-in-the-clouds sort of romance which resulted in the WC ending, which was very sad and somewhat annoying and, IMO, pretty much inevitable given the circumstances. I picked the City Elf with the full intention of her having a relationship with Alistair again but this time, of a less lofty and more down-to-earth nature, which would hopefully have a somewhat happier ending. The trouble is, after going through my Origin story I'm not too keen on human males right now. Particularly sarcastic blond aristocratic human males. Any other City Elf Alistair fanciers experience the same thing? Do you get over it or give the thing a miss and hang out with Zevran instead?

It sounds like your origin struck you in an unexpected way, I would say go with it and see where it leads you. If it turns out not to be Alistair, so be it. I love the Alistair romance and always do it for a happy ending but I started 2 "side" characters for specific reasons who have started taking on a life of their own, which surprised me. One is a HNF I started to try the gilmore mod. I planned to do the romance but most likely end up with Alistair, which is still probably happening, but her feelings about gilmore and why she makes certain choices kind of hit me out of left field as I started playing. The other character is an elf mage that I started with the intention of making "evil" to try out the opposite of my normal choices, but as I play I am finding she is anything but evil. Still not a good match for Alistair but perfect for Zevran.

EDIT: because I can't spell Zevran.

Modifié par Yankee23, 19 août 2010 - 02:52 .

[inclemency]

Yankee23 wrote...

t sounds like your origin struck you in an unexpected way, I would say go with it and see where it leads you. If it turns out not to be Alistair, so be it. I love the Alistair romance and always do it for a happy ending but I started 2 "side" characters for specific reasons who have started taking on a life of their own, which surprised me. One is a HNF I started to try the gilmore mod. I planned to do the romance but most likely end up with Alistair, which is still probably happening, but her feelings about gilmore and why she makes certain choices kind of hit me out of left field as I started playing. The other character is an elf mage that I started with the intention of making "evil" to try out the opposite of my normal choices, but as I play I am finding she is anything but evil. Still not a good match for Alistair but perfect for Zevran.

My current HNF was created to experience all the great new romance stuff out this week, but took on a life of her own.  So far she has Alistair at `Hostile``.   (sorry, keyboard switched to french canadian so punctuation is strange).   He pretty well hates her right now, and she`s not too thrilled about what she thinks is his naivety.  I can`t help thinking about how Anora described the difference between Loghein and Cailan, and that`s how my PC is seeing Alistair, as a sheltered idealist she is losing patience with.

Hopefully she`ll get hit in the head in a coming battle for a much needed attitude adjustment...

Modifié par inclemency, 19 août 2010 - 03:07 .