39010 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I think she would be pissed off if you did that. She may survive the battle but it would probably cause a rift between the Cousland and Eleanor. It'd be pretty easy for her to blame Cousland for her having to leave Bryce, no matter how much she loved her child.

She is reasonable and as Teyrna, she has her own duties to fullfill other than dying with her husband. I don't think she will permanently hold a grudge.

And if she does, I'll accept it as the price to pay for saving her life.

Also, talk about treating her like a child and not a strong Fereldan woman.  *shrugs*  We feel differently about this, obviously, but to me ignoring her choices and rendering her incapable and dragging her away in defiance of her wishes is apalling to me.

Me taking advantage of my mother covering my escape, risking herself to horrible acts that would injure our collective honor and my honor personally beyond repair, while I run away with my skin sounds appaling to me.

When my mother's life is in danger when the need isn't apparent, I couldn't care less about abstractions or her feeling that I am taking away her independence. My main priority would be to get her out alive. If she is so unreasonable as to hate me for it, so be it.

I think you are far more hung up on honor that almost everyone else in the game is.  What she's doing is not a matter of honor, it's a matter of duty and as others said, doing what she feels a moher should.  And what does honor matter if by doing what you suggest, you all die?  And if we're to talk about honor, what about her honor?  It's less important than yours?

Obviously.  We're on our way to a party or something. 

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[tuppence95]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely.  The way Eleanor says it, your duty is to go on and live, join the Grey Wardens, fight the Blight, carry on the family name, and let Fegus know of the betrayal.  Her duty is to give you that chance.  Putting your duty in jeopardy to prevent her from doing hers, I think, would be a disappointment to her.

[Sarah1281]

tuppence95 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely.  The way Eleanor says it, your duty is to go on and live, join the Grey Wardens, fight the Blight, carry on the family name, and let Fegus know of the betrayal.  Her duty is to give you that chance.  Putting your duty in jeopardy to prevent her from doing hers, I think, would be a disappointment to her.

If Eleanor wakes up and can be disappointed in you then it's a fait accompli.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I think you are far more hung up on honor that almost everyone else in the game is.  What she's doing is not a matter of honor, it's a matter of duty and as others said, doing what she feels a moher should.  And what does honor matter if by doing what you suggest, you all die?  And if we're to talk about honor, what about her honor?  It's less important than yours?

A son has a duty to his parents, namely protection when they become of age.

Again, you make it sound like we will all die for sure. If that was obvious, I wouldn't think about doing this. It isn't obvious and I felt that there was a chance to save her, even if the chances would be lowered.
If I took my playthrough too seriously, my PC would have felt his life meaning nothing, and that he was nothing but a cowardly scum who let his own mother cover his back while he ran off (that's what my PC would think, not saying any of your PCs are like this).

And no, it isn't. But I am not going to watch her sacrifice everything on my behalf, including her honor and mine and our family's. She might choose to do this for me, and I would refuse what she is offering me and I will try to save her regardless. 

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would have tried much harder to convince her that she doesn't need to die and that the 3 of us can do better than only 2. If she refuses, I'd knock her out. We might be caught and Ducan might prove useless. Would have been worth it regardless. 

Would it?  So your Cousland character died in Highever.  Probably got Duncan killed to.  So that leaves ... Alistair alone to fight the Blight.  Would it really have been worth it?

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely.  The way Eleanor says it, your duty is to go on and live, join the Grey Wardens, fight the Blight, carry on the family name, and let Fegus know of the betrayal.  Her duty is to give you that chance.  Putting your duty in jeopardy to prevent her from doing hers, I think, would be a disappointment to her.

If Eleanor wakes up and can be disappointed in you then it's a fait accompli.

I think tuppence meant it more in the vein of "So-and-so would be rolling in their graves right now if they saw you."

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely. 

Were they? The conversation dragged on for minutes.

[Briiel]

Ok for me this is a touchy subject . I am a single mom and I have a strong family . I would lay my life down to save my family and my son.

Alot of this is because I come from strong Scots/Irish stock. I have such a big family that "If you mess with the bull you get the horns".

In all consciousness I could NOT leave my parents to die in a cellar. But at the same time as a mother I understand what Eleanor is doing. In my family it's ok to harrass each other and joke around. If someone comes in and makes a threat at us . Think Monty Python and "merely a flesh wound" Our family would be up in arms til there was nothing left of us.

[tuppence95]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely.  The way Eleanor says it, your duty is to go on and live, join the Grey Wardens, fight the Blight, carry on the family name, and let Fegus know of the betrayal.  Her duty is to give you that chance.  Putting your duty in jeopardy to prevent her from doing hers, I think, would be a disappointment to her.

If Eleanor wakes up and can be disappointed in you then it's a fait accompli.

*sigh*

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
If Howe's men are at that moment breaking down the door, and the two of you are having to deal with dragging dead weight around, that's not very likely. 

Were they? The conversation dragged on for minutes.

Eleanor says right before Duncan pulls you away that they are breaking down the door.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would have tried much harder to convince her that she doesn't need to die and that the 3 of us can do better than only 2. If she refuses, I'd knock her out. We might be caught and Ducan might prove useless. Would have been worth it regardless. 

Would it?  So your Cousland character died in Highever.  Probably got Duncan killed to.  So that leaves ... Alistair alone to fight the Blight.  Would it really have been worth it?

I am in a dark room, where my father is lying dead, most of my family slaughered and my mother throwing her life away for me when I don't want it.

Do you really think I am going to sit and think about Alistair, a man I don't even know, and how he would fare against the blight?  Seriously?
These are things I wouldn't think about in that moment.

[Yankee23]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
I think you are far more hung up on honor that almost everyone else in the game is.  What she's doing is not a matter of honor, it's a matter of duty and as others said, doing what she feels a moher should.  And what does honor matter if by doing what you suggest, you all die?  And if we're to talk about honor, what about her honor?  It's less important than yours?

A son has a duty to his parents, namely protection when they become of age.

Again, you make it sound like we will all die for sure. If that was obvious, I wouldn't think about doing this. It isn't obvious and I felt that there was a chance to save her, even if the chances would be lowered.
If I took my playthrough too seriously, my PC would have felt his life meaning nothing, and that he was nothing but a cowardly scum who let his own mother cover his back while he ran off (that's what my PC would think, not saying any of your PCs are like this).

And no, it isn't. But I am not going to watch her sacrifice everything on my behalf, including her honor and mine and our family's. She might choose to do this for me, and I would refuse what she is offering me and I will try to save her regardless. 

Can you clarify for me how doing what she thinks is nessesary to save her child sacrifices anyone's honor?

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Eleanor says right before Duncan pulls you away that they are breaking down the door.

Then at best, she would have given us a few seconds.

Not close enough for me not to try.

[mellifera]

I'll have to say I agree with leaving Eleanor to make her choice. She may be my mother, but far be it from me to take away her agency. It's what she decided, and while it would make me sad and pissed off that she chose to die, I would understand her choice and be grateful that she did that out of love for me and so that I may live.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would have tried much harder to convince her that she doesn't need to die and that the 3 of us can do better than only 2. If she refuses, I'd knock her out. We might be caught and Ducan might prove useless. Would have been worth it regardless. 

Would it?  So your Cousland character died in Highever.  Probably got Duncan killed to.  So that leaves ... Alistair alone to fight the Blight.  Would it really have been worth it?

I am in a dark room, where my father is lying dead, most of my family slaughered and my mother throwing her life away for me when I don't want it.

Do you really think I am going to sit and think about Alistair, a man I don't even know, and how he would fare against the blight?  Seriously?
These are things I wouldn't think about in that moment.

Of course not.  You've never even heard of Alistair.  Why would you be sitting in that dark room thinking about him?  But you sounded like you were saying, looking back on the event ... "It would have been worth it."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yankee23 wrote...
Can you clarify for me how doing what she thinks is nessesary to save her child sacrifices anyone's honor?

Putting it at risk, not sacrificing it, I didn't mean it like that.

If she is raped, then her honor, her son's and her family's would have been slurred beyond repair. And I am no saying this to say that I would have tried to save my mother with only this in mind, obviously not. More like what I would have thought after I let her die so that I can escape. I would feel honorless and a coward.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

And what about SHE considers HER duty as a WIFE? Do those not matter? You've now put YOUR feelings above what she considers HER duty. If I were in her shoes, and my adult children had a chance to escape, and live, and my husband did not, heaven help ANYONE who came between me and his side. And you're also talking about her duty as a mother. I would gladly do what Eleanor did to assure my child's safety, and I would NOT leave my dying husband alone either.

[Briiel]

We need more Ali love in this thread.!!!! He has a sad!!


And Men in Boxers !!! Who doesn't love that !!

(Image was taken from pretty in pink)

And .......


:wub::wub:

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Of course not.  You've never even heard of Alistair.  Why would you be sitting in that dark room thinking about him?  But you sounded like you were saying, looking back on the event ... "It would have been worth it."

Of course in out-game perspective, it would not be worth it at all, since Alistair alone would have been...well not succesful and if we did die, it would have been the wrong choice (not ethically, just practically).
But these are things I can't think about in that situation. If I was in this situaton and we were caught because I tried my best to save my mother, I wouldn't have regretted it.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

And what about SHE considers HER duty as a WIFE? Do those not matter? You've now put YOUR feelings above what she considers HER duty. If I were in her shoes, and my adult children had a chance to escape, and live, and my husband did not, heaven help ANYONE who came between me and his side. And you're also talking about her duty as a mother. I would gladly do what Eleanor did to assure my child's safety, and I would NOT leave my dying husband alone either.

I took "I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty" to mean we were talking about the Warden. What is or is not Eleanor's duty has nothing to do with the Warden's duty. I was talking about whether Eleanor, had she been rescued against her will, would be disappointed in the Warden for putting their feelings about their duty given that they survived and can still do that duty that they weren't supposed to rescue her in order to be able to fulfill.

[Briiel]

*does a random*

Have you ever licked a Llammpost in Winter ??

[Yankee23]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...
Can you clarify for me how doing what she thinks is nessesary to save her child sacrifices anyone's honor?

Putting it at risk, not sacrificing it, I didn't mean it like that.

If she is raped, then her honor, her son's and her family's would have been slurred beyond repair. And I am no saying this to say that I would have tried to save my mother with only this in mind, obviously not. More like what I would have thought after I let her die so that I can escape. I would feel honorless and a coward.

I really don't want to go here because I'm still not 100% sure how you mean this...but nobody's honor is lost by the brutal acts of others, except the ones carrying out the the acts. I think she gains honor if she knowingly accepts what may happen to her on the chance it saves her child. I do understand that your pc would feel like he lost some of his honor because he feels he should have done more, but it does not slur Eleanor's in the least.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
Of course not.  You've never even heard of Alistair.  Why would you be sitting in that dark room thinking about him?  But you sounded like you were saying, looking back on the event ... "It would have been worth it."

Of course in out-game perspective, it would not be worth it at all, since Alistair alone would have been...well not succesful and if we did die, it would have been the wrong choice (not ethically, just practically).
But these are things I can't think about in that situation. If I was in this situaton and we were caught because I tried my best to save my mother, I wouldn't have regretted it.

Again, I feel that Eleanor was a strong (both physically and mentally) woman.  She knew what she was doing.  She was not some Orlesian wallflower who needed protecting.  She made a decision and she expected her child to do his/her duty and let her do hers.  She knew what she was risking.  I don't believe it was right to take that choice away from her.
 
That said ... it's late.  I don't want to help derail the topic anymore, but I'm too sleepy to find another Alistair picture to post.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
And what about SHE considers HER duty as a WIFE? Do those not matter?

What about a son's duty towards his mother? Doesn't that exist?
In this situation, both are motivated by feelings and not only duty.

I am not portraying this as an obvious situation where one's duty overrides the other. Nor did I ever say that I didn't admire Eleanor for her choice. But I would not have let her do it.

Because I can't live with myself knowing that I sacrificed my mother (or took advantage of it) just so I can live.
It's a selfish concern of a son who loves his mother and doesn't want her to die or worse be tortured and raped for him.

[Yankee23]

tuppence95 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
Of course not.  You've never even heard of Alistair.  Why would you be sitting in that dark room thinking about him?  But you sounded like you were saying, looking back on the event ... "It would have been worth it."

Of course in out-game perspective, it would not be worth it at all, since Alistair alone would have been...well not succesful and if we did die, it would have been the wrong choice (not ethically, just practically).
But these are things I can't think about in that situation. If I was in this situaton and we were caught because I tried my best to save my mother, I wouldn't have regretted it.

Again, I feel that Eleanor was a strong (both physically and mentally) woman.  She knew what she was doing.  She was not some Orlesian wallflower who needed protecting.  She made a decision and she expected her child to do his/her duty and let her do hers.  She knew what she was risking.  I don't believe it was right to take that choice away from her.
 
That said ... it's late.  I don't want to help derail the topic anymore, but I'm too sleepy to find another Alistair picture to post.

Me too, we can share.