39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yankee23 wrote...
I really don't want to go here because I'm still not 100% sure how you mean this...but nobody's honor is lost by the brutal acts of others, except the ones carrying out the the acts. I think she gains honor if she knowingly accepts what may happen to her on the chance it saves her child. I do understand that your pc would feel like he lost some of his honor because he feels he should have done more, but it does not slur Eleanor's in the least.

Her virtue. Whatever you want to call it.
And I am not implying those who have suffered this have no honor and all that bs. That's not how I mean it.
It's that it's taken from them and that is a fate equally bad as death.

So it's my PC thinking that his mother not only died for him, but suffered things equal to or worse than death for him and he couldnt' live with himself if he felt he didn't try hard enough.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Briiel]

But it has to be a pretty one !!



lalala ALI !!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Again, I feel that Eleanor was a strong (both physically and mentally) woman.  She knew what she was doing.  She was not some Orlesian wallflower who needed protecting.  She made a decision and she expected her child to do his/her duty and let her do hers.  She knew what she was risking.  I don't believe it was right to take that choice away from her.

My PC saw it as his duty to protect his mother and an act of cowardice if he didn't.

And to be honest, in that situation I couldnt' care less what is "right" and "wrong". All I would be caring about is getting my mother out alive.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Siduri]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If she is raped, then her honor, her son's and her family's would have been slurred beyond repair.

I recognize that this is a cultural difference, but I think it's wrong to say that a woman's honor is tarnished when she is raped. It is the rapist who is dishonored by the act, not the woman who was brutalized. She had no choice in the matter. She was *wronged*, she did not act dishonorably.

[Riona45]

Siduri wrote...


I recognize that this is a cultural difference, but I think it's wrong to say that a woman's honor is tarnished when she is raped. It is the rapist who is dishonored by the act, not the woman who was brutalized. She had no choice in the matter. She was *wronged*, she did not act dishonorably.

I agree with this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If she is raped, then her honor, her son's and her family's would have been slurred beyond repair.

I recognize that this is a cultural difference, but I think it's wrong to say that a woman's honor is tarnished when she is raped. It is the rapist who is dishonored by the act, not the woman who was brutalized. She had no choice in the matter. She was *wronged*, she did not act dishonorably.

I certainly did not mean it this way, I apologise. No of course not, she is not to blame. And yes, it's the scum who did this who would be honorless. 

But it's an attack on her honor. I don't know how to phrase it. But it's someone attacking her honor. Would she lose it? No. But it's still attacked and I can't even imagine how extremily unpleasant it would feel.

What I was arguing is that my PC would feel that he had no honor because he potentially allowed this to happen to his mother while he might have prevented it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Couslands took their duty very seriously. I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty.

If you both live and she wakes up somewhere safe and away from the castle then how did you put your feelings above your duty? Your duty was to get out of there alive and, in the future, bring down Howe. You are out of there alive and having her around should help bring Howe down.

And what about SHE considers HER duty as a WIFE? Do those not matter? You've now put YOUR feelings above what she considers HER duty. If I were in her shoes, and my adult children had a chance to escape, and live, and my husband did not, heaven help ANYONE who came between me and his side. And you're also talking about her duty as a mother. I would gladly do what Eleanor did to assure my child's safety, and I would NOT leave my dying husband alone either.

I took "I think if our warden had tried knocking Eleanor out to save her, she would've been very disappointed in them and their putting their feelings above their duty" to mean we were talking about the Warden. What is or is not Eleanor's duty has nothing to do with the Warden's duty. I was talking about whether Eleanor, had she been rescued against her will, would be disappointed in the Warden for putting their feelings about their duty given that they survived and can still do that duty that they weren't supposed to rescue her in order to be able to fulfill.

That was a bit dizzying but still...

But, my point is yes she would be. That warden,  would also be putting THEIR feelings above what she considers HER duty. So, yes, in fact I think she would be disappointed, even if the warden fulfills THEIR duty, Disappointed that her child let their feelings prevent her from doing what she felt was her duty, to stay with her husband, as she put it, through death and beyond.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
 Disappointed that her child let their feelings prevent her from doing what she felt was her duty, to stay with her husband, as she put it, through death and beyond.

Why can't the child be dissapointed that she is letting her feelings towards her husband prevent him from doing what he felt was his duty to protect his mother no matter what?

[Skyl4rk]

Briiel wrote...

*does a random*
Have you ever licked a Llammpost in Winter ??

*continues random* Soo...Briiel...Scottish/Irish stock eh? My bf's family are the same - Irish father and Scottish mother. Fun times at the dinner table that's for sure  Oh! and here's Ali!

[Sarah1281]

I could accept it if Eleanor felt she needed to die to save her child but if that weren't the issue and she just wanted to die to stay with someone who, even if Howe's men never went into the larder, wouldn't make it to morning just seems like a waste and I don't consider that her duty. You've stated you feel differently and maybe even Eleanor feels differently if she would have stayed even if it hadn't been an issue of escaping (which seems likely as she was willing to go if Bryce could leave and he would have been dead weight). I guess it's a case of values dissonance.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
 Disappointed that her child let their feelings prevent her from doing what she felt was her duty, to stay with her husband, as she put it, through death and beyond.

Why can't the child be dissapointed that she is letting her feelings towards her husband prevent him from doing what he felt was his duty to protect his mother no matter what?

So ... this is about your pc's feelings instead of Eleanors?  And it's not just her feelings about her husband.  It's also her love for her child.  She chose to sacrifice herself.  She chose to give up her life to save her child and to stay with her husband.  She told her child that she did not need his/her protection.  Taking that choice away from her is a little demeaning to her, I think. 

[Ace22]

I look like this dude in Real Life only I'm much fatter & Balder. But other than that I'm a dead ringer for Alistar!

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
 Disappointed that her child let their feelings prevent her from doing what she felt was her duty, to stay with her husband, as she put it, through death and beyond.

Why can't the child be dissapointed that she is letting her feelings towards her husband prevent him from doing what he felt was his duty to protect his mother no matter what?

He can be, but he shouldn't take the choice away from her. Noone should take that choice away from someone they love. Everything you've said makes sense. And I don't think anyone is arguing the validity of those feelings. But what we (as women especially) hate, is the idea of a perfectly valid choice being taken away from her, by force possibly.  To me, my duty as a wife is JUST AS if not more important as my duty as a mother. If my grown children have a chance to be safe, and my dying husband does not...HE needs me more, THEY need to respect that choice, they can be disappointed, they can be angry, but they should not take that decision out of my hands if they love me.

[Zjarcal]

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...
Can you clarify for me how doing what she thinks is nessesary to save her child sacrifices anyone's honor?

Putting it at risk, not sacrificing it, I didn't mean it like that.

If she is raped, then her honor, her son's and her family's would have been slurred beyond repair. And I am no saying this to say that I would have tried to save my mother with only this in mind, obviously not. More like what I would have thought after I let her die so that I can escape. I would feel honorless and a coward.

I really don't want to go here because I'm still not 100% sure how you mean this...but nobody's honor is lost by the brutal acts of others, except the ones carrying out the the acts. I think she gains honor if she knowingly accepts what may happen to her on the chance it saves her child. I do understand that your pc would feel like he lost some of his honor because he feels he should have done more, but it does not slur Eleanor's in the least.

This. I'm sorry KoP, but I fail to see how being raped tarnishes your honor. It's a horrible thing to be a victim of, but why on earth would one's honor be tarnished by it?

EDIT: Heh, I was late and you had already clarified.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Briiel]

@Sky : Indeed!!! We're like dwarfs only taller and less hairy !! If we were so inclined we could drink people under the table and still be standing !

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I could accept it if Eleanor felt she needed to die to save her child but if that weren't the issue and she just wanted to die to stay with someone who, even if Howe's men never went into the larder, wouldn't make it to morning just seems like a waste and I don't consider that her duty. You've stated you feel differently and maybe even Eleanor feels differently if she would have stayed even if it hadn't been an issue of escaping (which seems likely as she was willing to go if Bryce could leave and he would have been dead weight). I guess it's a case of values dissonance.

Wedding vows Sarah, it doesn't say "until you're dead weight with no chance of surviving" it says "until death do we part"...lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
So ... this is about your pc's feelings instead of Eleanors?  And it's not just her feelings about her husband.  It's also her love for her child.  She chose to sacrifice herself.  She chose to give up her life to save her child and to stay with her husband.  She told her child that she did not need his/her protection.  Taking that choice away from her is a little demeaning to her, I think. 

It is at heart a selfish choice, this I did not deny.
I didn't ask of her to do this for me. And I don't want it. I realise she doesn't want my protection either. And I find it petty to try to morally judge any of them, or try to claim the moral high ground here (not saying you are doing this, but it's somewhat close).

But if I was faced with that situation, I would not have given her the choice, while I felt I could have gotten her out alive. Demeaning, disrespectful, selfish. All those would have meant absolutely nothing to me in that situation. All that would have mattered is getting my mother alive because I didn't see the need for her to die. 

[Skyl4rk]

Lady Jess wrote...

He can be, but he shouldn't take the choice away from her. Noone should take that choice away from someone they love. Everything you've said makes sense. And I don't think anyone is arguing the validity of those feelings. But what we (as women especially) hate, is the idea of a perfectly valid choice being taken away from her, by force possibly.  To me, my duty as a wife is JUST AS if not more important as my duty as a mother. If my grown children have a chance to be safe, and my dying husband does not...HE needs me more, THEY need to respect that choice, they can be disappointed, they can be angry, but they should not take that decision out of my hands if they love me.

THIS! Thank you!  Now let's move on and get back On Topic.

And it's (sweet lovely lord!) 12:40 AM here, and its now Monday so I'm placing my derp pic.


Leliana: Maker! Marion, I told you not to eat the cheese last night!
Alistair: I know! That was my personal stock *sad*
Marion: ...so sorry...

Modifié par Skyl4rk, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
 but they should not take that decision out of my hands if they love me.

If I was your child, I would think you were taking the choice out of my hands too. You are forcing me to accept something I can't.

No one is being selfless here and all feelings are perfectly valid and natural. And though you might hate me for it, I would take that choice away from you. Selfish, I know. Because I just can't save my own skin at your expense, unless it was clear that you could never have made it.

That's why I don't feel as strongly about Bryce. He is a dead man and there is no saving him. This is not the case for Eleanor.

@ Zjarcal.
I sinsecirly apologise, I didn't mean it like this at all, I explained in another post.

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
So ... this is about your pc's feelings instead of Eleanors?  And it's not just her feelings about her husband.  It's also her love for her child.  She chose to sacrifice herself.  She chose to give up her life to save her child and to stay with her husband.  She told her child that she did not need his/her protection.  Taking that choice away from her is a little demeaning to her, I think. 

It is at heart a selfish choice, this I did not deny.
I didn't ask of her to do this for me. And I don't want it. I realise she doesn't want my protection either. And I find it petty to try to morally judge any of them, or try to claim the moral high ground here (not saying you are doing this, but it's somewhat close).

But if I was faced with that situation, I would not have given her the choice, while I felt I could have gotten her out alive. Demeaning, disrespectful, selfish. All those would have meant absolutely nothing to me in that situation. All that would have mattered is getting my mother alive because I didn't see the need for her to die. 

Not trying to take a moral high ground.  How to explain ...

For me, I was so overwhelmed by Eleanor's act.  The first time I played through that origin, it literally had me in tears.  To me, she was so strong and beautiful making her stand to allow her child to escape.  It was an act of bravery and love.  I know I keep repeating this, but I think it's very important that she knew what she was doing.  She had a very good idea what was facing her, and she stood up to it bravely because she knew that it would allow her child a chance to escape.  I was so proud of her and I really love her character.  She is what made me fall in love with the Couslands.

I just hate to see that taken away from her.

[Skyl4rk]

Briiel wrote...

@Sky : Indeed!!! We're like dwarfs only taller and less hairy !! If we were so inclined we could drink people under the table and still be standing !

Haha...so true.  You guys are crazy when it comes w/ drinking.  What I really love are his mom's Scottish slangs she uses when her husband or anyone gets cheeky w/ her.  "Up yer kilt w/ a wire brush!" is my favourite

[Zjarcal]

Lady Jess wrote...
To me, my duty as a wife is JUST AS if not more important as my duty as a mother.

This. I couldn't agree more.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Zjarcal.
I sinsecirly apologise, I didn't mean it like this at all, I explained in another post.

It's alright KoP, I posted that before reading the post where you clarified what you meant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Not trying to take a moral high ground.  How to explain ...

For me, I was so overwhelmed by Eleanor's act.  The first time I played through that origin, it literally had me in tears.  To me, she was so strong and beautiful making her stand to allow her child to escape.  It was an act of bravery and love.  I know I keep repeating this, but I think it's very important that she knew what she was doing.  She had a very good idea what was facing her, and she stood up to it bravely because she knew that it would allow her child a chance to escape.  I was so proud of her and I really love her character.  She is what made me fall in love with the Couslands.

I just hate to see that taken away from her.

No where did I deny that this was beautiful from her. I know. I greatly admire her for it. Even if I didn't feel it should have been done and that it wasn't the most rational thing to do, it would have helped more if she came along. 

But yes I was very moved by this and by her act of bravery and loyalty. But if I was her son, I can't let her do it because I think it would be admirable or that it would be a shame if I didn't let her do it. 

I am not trying here to say any feeling about this issue is wrong, or anything you might want to do is wrong (except well if you spit on your parents as you laughingly run off). Just like I admire Eleanor for her choice, I would equally admire a son doing whatever it takes to save his mother. 

The situation is so tragic that whatever you do, you are making a hard unpleasant choice (I don't even think I have the guts to knock my mother out). 

My main point is that we don't have any other choice but to accept it, without obvious reason to do so. I understand it for story and plot reasons. It's just if I take it too seriously, my PC would think he is scum.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:55 .

[tuppence95]

Wow, I just re-read what I wrote in my last post, and now I'm sounding like it's all about my feelings, and not Eleanor's.  

I think I'm not longer coherent.  Really do need sleep.  I've no idea why I'm still posting here.  This time for sure ... Good night!