39010 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

If he abandoned the Wardens at the Landsmeet, why should he remain one? Hardened Alistair outright says he is no longer a Warden. Since his naive idea was shattered, he can no longer think of himself as a warden. And since he has no home and no family, and is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid, he becomes a drunk. Perfeclty in character.

[Zeleen]

I think the outburst is in character... but I believe he would come to his senses and be in the battle, and go with the wardens if he survives...

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think he would (and he wasn't). His belief was shattered, he believes that his loved one were betrayed (when he is betraying them), and he believes that he's been betrayed because everything has to be personal with him. And so I don't think he would come to his senses any time soon. It was a pretty big outburst, one that he can't get over in a few days.

[Yankee23]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If he abandoned the Wardens at the Landsmeet, why should he remain one? Hardened Alistair outright says he is no longer a Warden. Since his naive idea was shattered, he can no longer think of himself as a warden. And since he has no home and no family, and is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid, he becomes a drunk. Perfeclty in character.

I shouldn't do this from work since I may not be able to follow along but...

I do not believe Alistair goes off to become a drunk because he "is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid" he ends up a drunk because he feels he has been betrayed and, once again, has lost everything that he cares about. All he has ever wanted was to belong and everytime he thinks he finds it, it is somehow torn away and it finally breaks him.  I do however think the regret will come later.

Modifié par Yankee23, 20 octobre 2010 - 02:38 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Zeleen wrote...

I think the outburst is in character... but I believe he would come to his senses and be in the battle, and go with the wardens if he survives...

I think he also take issue with Eamon and Teagan not taking offense either.
He is the only one who disagrees with it, thats plain to see.

The Wardens (PC and Riordian)
The Party (the other two people there)
The Whole Landsmeet (including his whole family)

Those groups dont object to Loghain being spared, so he sees everyone as betraying his sense of duty and justice.

I dont like it, and view it as immature, selfish, and utterly pathetic the way he abandons his entire country and the people he once swore to protect. I understand why he does it though, and let him go because he wants to go.

[tuppence95]

I rarely spare Loghain, but I don't think he is evil.  I think he is maybe the most flawed character in the game. I know ... I know ... I've said this before.    

He may have been a great general once, and I'm sure he believed he had good reason for his actions in Ostagar.  But his decision was one of the most incredibly misguided things anyone did in DA.  He was responsible for almost all of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden dying.  And if he had been successful in his attempts to kill the PC and Alistair, that would have been the end of Ferelden that he believed he was saving.

So I think he's insane with paranoia, but not evil.  But I think it's worth it to spare him at least once and listen to his dialog.  He's a fascinating guy.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
 I understand why he does it though, and let him go because he wants to go.

I would have too, if I wasn't worried about allowing Alistair to desert in front of the Landsmeet when I am seeking to become their king consort. I would have looked pretty weak if I allowed that.
Still I wish we could have imprisonned him. I would have tried to reason with him more, even if I had to beat in him. I would allow him to fight under Riordan if he wants to stay away from me. If he continues to refuse, well I simply can't let him go like that. But that's just me. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Yankee23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If he abandoned the Wardens at the Landsmeet, why should he remain one? Hardened Alistair outright says he is no longer a Warden. Since his naive idea was shattered, he can no longer think of himself as a warden. And since he has no home and no family, and is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid, he becomes a drunk. Perfeclty in character.

I shouldn't do this from work since I may not be able to follow along but...

I do not believe Alistair goes off to become a drunk because he "is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid" he ends up a drunk because he feels he has been betrayed and, once again, has lost everything that he cares about. All he has ever wanted was to belong and everytime he thinks he finds it, it is somehow torn away and it finally breaks him.  I do however think the regret will come later.

That is what Gaider said:
Alistair would LATER feel regret about not being there, and helping to stop the blight.
Notice the LATER part.

[Zeleen]

I know how the writers wrote it.... I'm just stating that I would have written it differently

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
 I understand why he does it though, and let him go because he wants to go.

I would have too, if I wasn't worried about allowing Alistair to desert in front of the Landsmeet when I am seeking to become their king consort. I would have looked pretty weak if I allowed that.
Still I wish we could have imprisonned him. I would have tried to reason with him more, even if I had to beat in him. I would allow him to fight under Riordan if he wants to stay away from me. If he continues to refuse, well I simply can't let him go like that. But that's just me. 

Could be that I read John Stuart Mill's on Liberty at least three times so I dont mess with people's choices that they want to take.
Unless it hurts them, or other people.

But then again my Canon is the chancellor to a hardened Alistair who demoted Loghain the old fashioned way, that still suprises me that he did that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Could be that I read John Stuart Mill's on Liberty at least three times so I dont mess with people's choices that they want to take.
Unless it hurts them, or other people.

I have read it 2-3 timesd as well and nothing there seems to suggest that John Stuart Mill is perfectly fine with desertion.
What he did does hurt someone. Myself and my image as commander and that can hurt the war effort as a whole. On that basis alone, I can prevent him from going.

[Tigress M]

I believe Alistair's reaction to sparing Loghain is completely in character. As Yankee said, he feels he the Warden's actions are a betrayal. The last in a lifelong string of them. And although it plays the same whether or not he's in love with the Warden, I imagine that betrayal seems even greater when it comes from one he's given his heart to.

I also think regret will come to him, in time. But, forgiveness... probably never. And I picture him forever alone, never risking losing his heart to yet another person who will abandon him.

It's a sad, sad end, and quite wasteful of a man so full of promise and potential. But, it's a very realistic end, and I for one, could see myself reacting just as he did, were I in his position, feeling as if the very ground beneath my feet had suddenly crumbled away to dust.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Could be that I read John Stuart Mill's on Liberty at least three times so I dont mess with people's choices that they want to take.
Unless it hurts them, or other people.

I have read it 2-3 timesd as well and nothing there seems to suggest that John Stuart Mill is perfectly fine with desertion.
What he did does hurt someone. Myself and my image as commander and that can hurt the war effort as a whole. On that basis alone, I can prevent him from going.

Still I doubt he would advocate for his execution though.
He more refers to physical pain, that is obvious to be seen, not to mental damage or other types since those are hard to pin down. 

Honestly I think that murdering any rivals can be just as harmful to an image as well. Sparing someone and showing mercy does not show weakness, but strength and humanity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Honestly I think that murdering any rivals can be just as harmful to an image as well. Sparing someone and showing mercy does not show weakness, but strength and humanity.

To those who yield, yes. Alistair didn't. So I don't feel obligated and I think letting him leave is a sign of weakness.  I never thought he was a rival, I don't think that well of him for me to think he can be a rival. 
Like I said, I would have preferred emprisonning him and only executing him after trying really hard to convince him.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think he would (and he wasn't). His belief was shattered, he believes that his loved one were betrayed (when he is betraying them), and he believes that he's been betrayed because everything has to be personal with him. And so I don't think he would come to his senses any time soon. It was a pretty big outburst, one that he can't get over in a few days.

But his loved ones such as they are, you have to bear in mind this is a very lonely young man, no family no girlfriend unless the warden befriends him, Duncan and the other wardens, have been betrayed and died as a direct result of Loghan's actions. This is personal, why is he blamed for being personal and having feelings and not being a cold, calculating hijo de puta like Logain? Later on Logain blames the Grey Wardens for the Ostagar debacle and hunts them down... Logain is so mature he can't even shoulder the responsibility of his own actions...

That is why in all my games Logain always gets it.  I have no interest in his snivelling ex post factum excuses.

Modifié par Maria13, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:02 .

[AnniLau]

Yankee23 wrote...

I do not believe Alistair goes off to become a drunk because he "is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid" he ends up a drunk because he feels he has been betrayed and, once again, has lost everything that he cares about. All he has ever wanted was to belong and everytime he thinks he finds it, it is somehow torn away and it finally breaks him.  I do however think the regret will come later.

Except it isn't 'torn away' in that ending...he throws it away by being unwilling to even discuss  it with the person he claims to love and then running away. It somehow never occurs to him that all she wants is one more body between the Fereldan and the Archdemon - hell, between HIM and the Archdemon - and he never gives her the chance to explain.

If he's broken by the experience, he really only has one person to blame...himself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
This is personal, why is he blamed for being personal and having feelings and not being a cold, calculating hijo de puta like Logain?

Because it's the fate of an entire nation we are talking about that is more important than his feelings.
So yes, I would have preferred him being a cold calculating "hijo de puta" like me.

I am not going to talk about Loghain here, there is a thread for him.

[Giggles_Manically]

AnniLau wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

I do not believe Alistair goes off to become a drunk because he "is filled with regret because he knows what he did was stupid" he ends up a drunk because he feels he has been betrayed and, once again, has lost everything that he cares about. All he has ever wanted was to belong and everytime he thinks he finds it, it is somehow torn away and it finally breaks him.  I do however think the regret will come later.

Except it isn't 'torn away' in that ending...he throws it away by being unwilling to even discuss  it with the person he claims to love and then running away. It somehow never occurs to him that all she wants is one more body between the Fereldan and the Archdemon - hell, between HIM and the Archdemon - and he never gives her the chance to explain.

If he's broken by the experience, he really only has one person to blame...himself.

True enough.

Alistair made his choice to leave, and no one forced him out the door but himself. Sparing Loghain only opened that door, his tantrum and refusal to see past his own desires is what kicked him out the door.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
This is personal, why is he blamed for being personal and having feelings and not being a cold, calculating hijo de puta like Logain?

Because it's the fate of an entire nation we are talking about that is more important than his feelings.
So yes, I would have preferred him being a cold calculating "hijo de puta" like me.

I am not going to talk about Loghain here, there is a thread for him.

Well there you have it.  That's probably why Alistair's thread will always be more popular than poor old Loghain's...  A cold calculating hijo de puta does not a terribly interesting game character make.  Since this is actually a gush thread I wonder why you are here in the first place?

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
This is personal, why is he blamed for being personal and having feelings and not being a cold, calculating hijo de puta like Logain?

Because it's the fate of an entire nation we are talking about that is more important than his feelings.
So yes, I would have preferred him being a cold calculating "hijo de puta" like me.

I am not going to talk about Loghain here, there is a thread for him.

I wish Loghain had cared more about the fate of the entire nation before putting his feelings about the Orlesians before what was really important.  If he hadn't killed off the rest of the wardens, Alistair's departure wouldn't have been so important.

[tuppence95]

Maria13 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
This is personal, why is he blamed for being personal and having feelings and not being a cold, calculating hijo de puta like Logain?

Because it's the fate of an entire nation we are talking about that is more important than his feelings.
So yes, I would have preferred him being a cold calculating "hijo de puta" like me.

I am not going to talk about Loghain here, there is a thread for him.

Well there you have it.  That's probably why Alistair's thread will always be more popular than poor old Loghain's...  A cold calculating hijo de puta does not a terribly interesting game character make.  Since this is actually a gush thread I wonder why you are here in the first place?

Aw, don't make KoP feel like he doesn't have a place here.  He has a fondness for Alistair gushers, even if he doesn't care for the gushee.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
I wish Loghain had cared more about the fate of the entire nation before putting his feelings about the Orlesians before what was really important.  If he hadn't killed off the rest of the wardens, Alistair's departure wouldn't have been so important.

This has already been discussed to death. He did what he did because he thought, for very valid and rational reasons, that the Orlesians were a threat to Ferelden. He didn't do it because of his feelings. 
Whether he was mistaken or not, Loghain did NOT abandon his people and his nation.

You are arguing in hindesight. There was no way for Loghain to know for sure that the Wardens are necessary and that they are not working with the Orlesians.

Anyways, I am not going to discuss it here. This is the last place I want to discuss Loghain in.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Tigress M]

Maria13 wrote...
 Since this is actually a gush thread I wonder why you are here in the first place?

Because he likes the gushers!  I, personally, love the fact that KoP is willing to hang out with us despite the fact he's not crazy about Alistair.  Besides... he makes things... interesting (in a good way of course).

[tuppence95]

Well, Loghain even agrees in hindsight that he was wrong and that everything that happened was his fault. Whether it was his feelings or his paranoia or whatever ... he did abandon his people and he killed off the wardens and almost brought about the downfall of his entire country. He did specifically say that it was all his fault. Even Cauthrien finally agrees that he is deluded. Yes I am sure he believed that he was not abandoning his nation, but you can't argue that that is what the result of his actions.

*edit to include Alistair

Modifié par tuppence95, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To those who yield, yes. Alistair didn't. So I don't feel obligated and I think letting him leave is a sign of weakness.  I never thought he was a rival, I don't think that well of him for me to think he can be a rival. 
Like I said, I would have preferred emprisonning him and only executing him after trying really hard to convince him.

But statements like the one above do not endear him to this particular gushee. 

• He doesn't value Alistair
• He would imprison him and execute him,
• From another of his recent comments, Alistair damages his reputation as a commander, oh dear, his poor reputation...

Why is he here?  I'm pretty certain the morriganites and loganites would not be so tolerant...