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[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He did, in the one harrowing he was part of, when the mage failed and became an abomination. He felt horribly sorry for her, though and said that he didn't have a desire to be a templar after that. He was very grateful to be rescued from it. Killing a maleficar, though? Noooooo problem.

No, that's not true.  He does have a problem killing maleficar, as evidenced by the fact that he tries to talk you out of it if you want to kill Jowan on the spot.

I also don't recall that he says that he personally killed the mage in the failed harrowing.  He was observing and not a full templar.

His exact words "This girl they tested… She had a demon put inside her, to see if she
could resist. And she couldn’t. We had to… end it quickly."

So, yeah, I think he did take an active part in it and that was a bit of a turning point, scales from eyes and all that.  On the other stuff, he's contradictory...

No doubt purposefully, to make for more open gameplay.
Whoops, top of page. I'll take care of that when I get home from work.
As to whether he took part, I think when he said 'we' he meant 'we', myself, but I guess that's another thing that's open to interpretation.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 octobre 2010 - 06:42 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

His exact words "This girl they tested… She had a demon put inside her, to see if she
could resist. And she couldn’t. We had to… end it quickly."

So, yeah, I think he did take an active part in it and that was a bit of a turning point, scales from eyes and all that. On the other stuff, he's contradictory...

I think by 'we' he means 'the templars on duty there.' How many templars did it take to kill her, anyway?

I interpret it as a guilty "we."  Cullen says he was the one picked to strike the killing blow if the Warden's harrowing goes pear-shaped.  Singular, not plural.  Though it would probably be the case of the other templars holding her down.

Okay... more puppies and sunshine...

[errant_knight]

DahliaLynn wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Briiel wrote...

@DahliaLynn: I voted, I love them !! If you don't use all of them for the wedding you should make a package or something that people could use *whistles*

There will be a package included in the mod download site, so people will be able to choose regardless.
Still for those less mod savvy I have to make a default choice.

Edit: I believe it only fair to probably choose one of the vanilla dress recolors. (the middle pic) This would explain that it is directly from the game and not any personal special design of the artists.

DL, it won't be the last time someone says this, but thank you so much for your work on this.  You are amazing.  Really, the dedication you put into every detail shows in the final product of your scenes.  (Edit:  You and tmp get raves on my YouTube videos, for instance.)

The squee when you release this is going to be epic.  EPIC I say. 

QFT!

Thank you I'm really doing my best...and am trying hard to make the wedding I so wanted to see, as good as I could possibly make it.
Though we aren't the majority of Dragon Age fans..most Alistarians being being female and all, .there are many really good reasons why we all love Alistair so much, so I am trying to help out in satisfying our game desires, all the while gaining a ton of experience in projects I never fathomed I would ever be working on. 

Can't wait to see the results of all your hard work!

[FFZero]

Well taking the mage origin as an exmaple it's seems there's at least 4 templars during a mage's harrowing. Whether that's the norm or not we don't know but if I remember right I believe Cullen said that one of the templars present is chosen to strike the killing blow, in the wardens case it was Cullen so maybe Alistair was in a sitation like that, not liking the idea of striking down a mage but having little to no choice in the matter.

Edit: bugger ninja'd

Modifié par FFZero, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He did, in the one harrowing he was part of, when the mage failed and became an abomination. He felt horribly sorry for her, though and said that he didn't have a desire to be a templar after that. He was very grateful to be rescued from it. Killing a maleficar, though? Noooooo problem.

No, that's not true.  He does have a problem killing maleficar, as evidenced by the fact that he tries to talk you out of it if you want to kill Jowan on the spot.

I also don't recall that he says that he personally killed the mage in the failed harrowing.  He was observing and not a full templar.

I have to disagree with you, but it's a matter of interpretation. To me, his tone and expression while debating what to do with the maleficar in the tower with Leliana indicate that he thinks she should be killed. His feelings about Jowan may be more mixed, but I don't see that with the maleficar. He also sees the Jowan situation as unusual.

Yeah, Alistair joking about killing a mage, just don't see that.  And the dialogue about Jowan is pretty unambiguous.  "We can't just kill him!"  Don't see how that can be interpreted that he's for killing maleficar just for being maleficar.  With Jowan, he wants him held rather than released, but Jowan actually poisoned someone by his own admission.

And I would bring up the fact that he never comments on a Warden being a blood mage, but the game goes entirely silent on that subject so it's not really a point for or against.

[Yankee23]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

His exact words "This girl they tested… She had a demon put inside her, to see if she
could resist. And she couldn’t. We had to… end it quickly."

So, yeah, I think he did take an active part in it and that was a bit of a turning point, scales from eyes and all that. On the other stuff, he's contradictory...

I think by 'we' he means 'the templars on duty there.' How many templars did it take to kill her, anyway?

I interpret it as a guilty "we."  Cullen says he was the one picked to strike the killing blow if the Warden's harrowing goes pear-shaped.  Singular, not plural.  Though it would probably be the case of the other templars holding her down.

Okay... more puppies and sunshine...

I know we are talking about abominations and all that... but she wouldn't look like one and the thought of Alistair being put in that situation makes me queasy. Not something he would ever find easy to live with, I think.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He did, in the one harrowing he was part of, when the mage failed and became an abomination. He felt horribly sorry for her, though and said that he didn't have a desire to be a templar after that. He was very grateful to be rescued from it. Killing a maleficar, though? Noooooo problem.

No, that's not true.  He does have a problem killing maleficar, as evidenced by the fact that he tries to talk you out of it if you want to kill Jowan on the spot.

I also don't recall that he says that he personally killed the mage in the failed harrowing.  He was observing and not a full templar.

I have to disagree with you, but it's a matter of interpretation. To me, his tone and expression while debating what to do with the maleficar in the tower with Leliana indicate that he thinks she should be killed. His feelings about Jowan may be more mixed, but I don't see that with the maleficar. He also sees the Jowan situation as unusual.

Yeah, Alistair joking about killing a mage, just don't see that.  And the dialogue about Jowan is pretty unambiguous.  "We can't just kill him!"  Don't see how that can be interpreted that he's for killing maleficar just for being maleficar.  With Jowan, he wants him held rather than released, but Jowan actually poisoned someone by his own admission.

And I would bring up the fact that he never comments on a Warden being a blood mage, but the game goes entirely silent on that subject so it's not really a point for or against.

I don't think he's joking. Sarcastic, yes. Joking, no. And I think he sees reasons to Keep Jowan alive. He may also be moved by his remorse. Alistair isn't unmerciful, in most situations. Still, I do think that this is interpretive, so you can't really say I'm wrong, just that you disagree. You might not see it, but that doesn't make one interpretation more right than the other.

The fact that he doesn't comment about the warden if a blood mage, well, I think that's gameplay, just like making Wynne or Anders a blood mage, and is at least partly based on making sure there's no schism before landsmeet, so I don't think it adds weight. But I'll leave it there, because last time I went down this road, I got in deep doodoo.

[Lady Jess]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He did, in the one harrowing he was part of, when the mage failed and became an abomination. He felt horribly sorry for her, though and said that he didn't have a desire to be a templar after that. He was very grateful to be rescued from it. Killing a maleficar, though? Noooooo problem.

No, that's not true.  He does have a problem killing maleficar, as evidenced by the fact that he tries to talk you out of it if you want to kill Jowan on the spot.

I also don't recall that he says that he personally killed the mage in the failed harrowing.  He was observing and not a full templar.

I have to disagree with you, but it's a matter of interpretation. To me, his tone and expression while debating what to do with the maleficar in the tower with Leliana indicate that he thinks she should be killed. His feelings about Jowan may be more mixed, but I don't see that with the maleficar. He also sees the Jowan situation as unusual.

His only objection to the blood mage in the tower is in response to her saying she'll go to the chantry, all he really says is they won't accept her. He says absolutely NOTHING else, nothing that says to kill her, and no objection to telling her to go join the other mages downstairs and fight the darkspawn.

[Phedra]

I am at the part of the game just before the Landsmeet and I have spoken with Queen Anora about marrying Alistair. I am just curious if "Hardened Alistair" actually states he would rather marry my HNF instead of Queen Anora.

[Sarah1281]

Phedra wrote...

I am at the part of the game just before the Landsmeet and I have spoken with Queen Anora about marrying Alistair. I am just curious if "Hardened Alistair" actually states he would rather marry my HNF instead of Queen Anora.

No he does not. He's only even aware what origin and gender you are in specific circumstances and talking to him about marrying Anora is not one of them. He does not mention marriage to the Warden (HNF or otherwise) unless you bring it up at the Landsmeet itself.

[Yankee23]

Phedra wrote...

I am at the part of the game just before the Landsmeet and I have spoken with Queen Anora about marrying Alistair. I am just curious if "Hardened Alistair" actually states he would rather marry my HNF instead of Queen Anora.

Nope, the best you get from him is unhardened he tells her she is more important to him than the throne.

[errant_knight]

Lady Jess wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He did, in the one harrowing he was part of, when the mage failed and became an abomination. He felt horribly sorry for her, though and said that he didn't have a desire to be a templar after that. He was very grateful to be rescued from it. Killing a maleficar, though? Noooooo problem.

No, that's not true.  He does have a problem killing maleficar, as evidenced by the fact that he tries to talk you out of it if you want to kill Jowan on the spot.

I also don't recall that he says that he personally killed the mage in the failed harrowing.  He was observing and not a full templar.

I have to disagree with you, but it's a matter of interpretation. To me, his tone and expression while debating what to do with the maleficar in the tower with Leliana indicate that he thinks she should be killed. His feelings about Jowan may be more mixed, but I don't see that with the maleficar. He also sees the Jowan situation as unusual.

His only objection to the blood mage in the tower is in response to her saying she'll go to the chantry, all he really says is they won't accept her. He says absolutely NOTHING else, nothing that says to kill her, and no objection to telling her to go join the other mages downstairs and fight the darkspawn.

As I said, I was interpreting his tone and expression as well as his words. Everyone else is free to interpret it differently, as they wish. That's my interpretation, however.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Maria13]

Yankee23 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

His exact words "This girl they tested… She had a demon put inside her, to see if she
could resist. And she couldn’t. We had to… end it quickly."

So, yeah, I think he did take an active part in it and that was a bit of a turning point, scales from eyes and all that. On the other stuff, he's contradictory...

I think by 'we' he means 'the templars on duty there.' How many templars did it take to kill her, anyway?

I interpret it as a guilty "we."  Cullen says he was the one picked to strike the killing blow if the Warden's harrowing goes pear-shaped.  Singular, not plural.  Though it would probably be the case of the other templars holding her down.

Okay... more puppies and sunshine...

I know we are talking about abominations and all that... but she wouldn't look like one and the thought of Alistair being put in that situation makes me queasy. Not something he would ever find easy to live with, I think.

It makes me quesy too, and I very much think it does him...  Sure, he could have been one of the ones holding her down but would that make him feel less guilty? I don't think so. 

I actually think he sounds guiltier for being complicit in putting her through that ordeal in the first place rather than for ending it... (I mean what right did they have to put a demon in the girl in the first place? How many people would be able to resist that?) Because it seems obvious that he thinks at that time SHE was suffering and there was no way back...

No grounds in game for my assertion that this was a turning point, the point where he started asking why am I doing this? why is the Chantry doing this... but it certainly seems like one.

Modifié par Maria13, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Zjarcal]

Briiel wrote...

Ok going back on the Alistair ,Landsmeet thing!!
For me it's simply this ... I am loyal in and out of game to my friends,family and loved ones. I could NEVER betray Alistair like that. For a few reasons. 
What would the rest of my group think if I betrayed him then I could do it to one of them???
These were the people who had my back 
These were the people who saw me in my weak moments and my great moments
These were the people who stood by me when the rest condemed me
These were the people who became in a sense my family

I couldn't make Lohgain a Grey Warden, I would never trust him simple as that.
Hero or not . 
Where was he when I was gathering forces to fight darkspawn?? In Denerim condeming me and blaming me for the outcome of Ostagar.
Where was he when needed help ?? In Denerim plotting my demise
Where was he when wrongs needed to be right?? He was letting Arl Howe do nasty things to people
Where was he when I was playing Robin Hood and helping the needy ?? He was in Denerim causing a civil war

I believe that Lohgain wasn't in his right mind thru alot of this. That doesn't mean I should pat him on the back and say Welcome Friend!

The Landsmeet and the rest be damned if I am gonna betray friends who stood beside me and helped me in my darkest hours to help save our country. Which they were on the verge of destroying with Politics.

My Posse and I had to overcome hell to save Ferelden. 
Landsmeet didn't show me glowing support ,Hell even Eamon is in it for his own gain. 
My group stood by me through everything. 
Leave no soldier behind 
we fought hard to get to that point and because Lohgain says "I'm sorry " that should make it all Butterflies and rainbows. While he was tearing the country apart ,it was my little motley crew trying to piece it all together.Image is nothing ,preservance is everything. 

I fought to help our country survive. Lohgain fought with old fears and prejudices 

My two cents anyhoo!![smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

I'm sorry to bring the discussion back to this topic, but I just hate it when people say that the Warden betrays Alistair. Alistair may interpret it as a betrayal, but all you did was refuse to kill a man. If the Warden had plotted with Loghain behind Alistair's back and/or had switched to Loghain's side while the arguments were still being discussed in the Landsmeet, that would be a betrayal.

What happens in game is that you win a duel, refuse to execute the loser, and then give him a chance at redemption. At no point did my Warden say, "screw you Alistair, I'm recruiting Loghain to break your spirit!". Alistair may interpret it like that, but it sure wasn't a betrayal.

To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

For the record, I'm not really bothered by Alistair's reaction. Well, him abandoning everything instead of staying and fighting alongiside Eamon does bother me, but his refusal to fight alongside Loghain doesn't bother me. Talk of betrayal does.

[Addai]

Phedra wrote...

I am at the part of the game just before the Landsmeet and I have spoken with Queen Anora about marrying Alistair. I am just curious if "Hardened Alistair" actually states he would rather marry my HNF instead of Queen Anora.

Sorry, no hearts and flowers there.  It actually goes more romantically if he's unhardened.  Then he'll say "you're more important to me than anything" and "I don't want anyone else, even for pretend."

[errant_knight]

For part, I was speaking entirely from Alistair's point of view, and that's how I think he sees it. I think that was the basis for the discussion, not 'was he right.' It doesn't mean that one's warden's can't see it entirely differently, and probably does if he/she spares Loghain. Of course, one's warden can also agree with him entirely.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:38 .

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

No grounds in game for my assertion that this was a turning point, the point where he started asking why am I doing this? why is the Chantry doing this... but it certainly seems like one.

Definitely a key moment, he even sees that it was.  Not that he was ever happy to be in the Chantry, but it seems like that was the moment when he became desperate to get out.

Time for this again, I think!


link

Modifié par Addai67, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:40 .

[LadyDamodred]

Zjarcal wrote...
To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

My HNs would call it a betrayal.  Absolutely.  It is, in fact, a situation I've used in the past to illustrate how it feels to Alistair.  Now, you may be forgiving enough that you don't see it as that, but I am not.  And neither are my HNs.

But...that's the great thing.  The same situation and two very different views on it.

Addai:  That pic is my current desktop! 

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Lady Jess]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

My HNs would call it a betrayal.  Absolutely.  It is, in fact, a situation I've used in the past to illustrate how it feels to Alistair.  Now, you may be forgiving enough that you don't see it as that, but I am not.  And neither are my HNs.

But...that's the great thing.  The same situation and two very different views on it.

Addai:  That pic is my current desktop! 

I agree. I think my Kasha is just as likely to slit his throat in a blind rage if he did that, I kid you not.

[Sarah1281]

While I do fully acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the situation, I've never liked the Howe comparison. Howe personally has the Couslands killed for no other reason that we are told but to take Highever. If Howe had not given the order to attack, then we pretty much KNOW that while Bryce may have died at Ostagar, the others would have lived.

Loghain failed to charge and merely did not rescue them from the darkspawn they were already fighting. I believe that they would have died anyway and Loghain probably would have lost but even had he won he would have gotten a pyrrhic victory and been ill-equipped to face the Archdemon later (which admittedly he didn't really believe in at that time).

I really can't compare failing to save troops in a battle to slaughtering innocents in their home and Alistair's biggest objection to sparing Loghain and making him a Warden seem to spring from his actions at Ostagar.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .

[LadyDamodred]

It really is a personal thing. If it were me in that situation, it would break things irrevokably between me and Alistair, and so the same thing would happen with my PCs. I would be so hurt and disgusted that I couldn't stay. It might seem childish, but hey, it's who I am.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I do fully acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the situation, I've never liked the Howe comparison. Howe personally has the Couslands killed for no other reason that we are told but to take Highever. If Howe had not given the order to attack, then we pretty much KNOW that while Bryce may have died at Ostagar, the others would have lived.

Loghain failed to charge and merely did not rescue them from the darkspawn they were already fighting. I believe that they would have died anyway and Loghain probably would have lost but even had he won he would have gotten a pyrrhic victory and been ill-equipped to face the Archdemon later (which admittedly he didn't really believe in at that time).

I really can't compare failing to save troops in a battle to slaughtering innocents in their home and Alistair's biggest objection to sparing Loghain and making him a Warden seem to spring from his actions at Ostagar.

But, in game, you don't know that.  In the place of the Wardens, all you know are the events of the game.  So Alistair's "biggest objection" to Loghain, the Battle of Ostagar and the death of Cailan and the Wardens, ignoring the fact that he's been trying to kill you for a year and blamed Ostagar on you, is actually a pretty massive objection from his viewpoint.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I do fully acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the situation, I've never liked the Howe comparison. Howe personally has the Couslands killed for no other reason that we are told but to take Highever. If Howe had not given the order to attack, then we pretty much KNOW that while Bryce may have died at Ostagar, the others would have lived.

Loghain failed to charge and merely did not rescue them from the darkspawn they were already fighting. I believe that they would have died anyway and Loghain probably would have lost but even had he won he would have gotten a pyrrhic victory and been ill-equipped to face the Archdemon later (which admittedly he didn't really believe in at that time).

I really can't compare failing to save troops in a battle to slaughtering innocents in their home and Alistair's biggest objection to sparing Loghain and making him a Warden seem to spring from his actions at Ostagar.

I don't think it's a LITERAL comparison of deeds, just a comparison of feelings. Many times people having a debate will say well "how would you feel if..." and it's really just a means to get them to see your feelings more than compare the actual factual event behind them. I suck at explaining, I know.

[Schratty]

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I do fully acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the situation, I've never liked the Howe comparison. Howe personally has the Couslands killed for no other reason that we are told but to take Highever. If Howe had not given the order to attack, then we pretty much KNOW that while Bryce may have died at Ostagar, the others would have lived.

Loghain failed to charge and merely did not rescue them from the darkspawn they were already fighting. I believe that they would have died anyway and Loghain probably would have lost but even had he won he would have gotten a pyrrhic victory and been ill-equipped to face the Archdemon later (which admittedly he didn't really believe in at that time).

I really can't compare failing to save troops in a battle to slaughtering innocents in their home and Alistair's biggest objection to sparing Loghain and making him a Warden seem to spring from his actions at Ostagar.

This is well-stated. Still, I've always sided with Alistair. It's silly, I know, but I do it because I have a larger emotional investment in his character than I do Loghain's. What can I say? He's got me wrapped around his little finger

[Yankee23]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

My HNs would call it a betrayal.  Absolutely.  It is, in fact, a situation I've used in the past to illustrate how it feels to Alistair.  Now, you may be forgiving enough that you don't see it as that, but I am not.  And neither are my HNs.

But...that's the great thing.  The same situation and two very different views on it.

Addai:  That pic is my current desktop! 

It's really all in how you view and rp things. I agree with Lady D, from the moment that my HN leaves Highever she has every intention of taking care of Howe. Just like after Ostagar the intention is to get rid of Loghain. I don't imagine that any of this was a secret within my party, ceratinly not between my HN and Alistair. So when the time comes, making a decision contrary to what you have been telling the other all along can be viewed as a betrayal. Again, this is how I rp it in my game.