39010 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

But, in game, you don't know that. In the place of the Wardens, all you know are the events of the game. So Alistair's "biggest objection" to Loghain, the Battle of Ostagar and the death of Cailan and the Wardens, ignoring the fact that he's been trying to kill you for a year and blamed Ostagar on you, is actually a pretty massive objection from his viewpoint.

I'm not trying to trivialize Alistair's objection. I was just saying that Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar and so thus I don't think bringing up Loghain's other actions would be very relevant as they were less personal to him. I'm not sure what I said that I couldn't know in-game. I don't know, for instance, that Loghain would have lost or that his victory would be meaningless but it's what I believed based on what I saw in-game from a non-meta POV so I don't see why any Wardens I have couldn't believe the same.

I don't think it's a LITERAL comparison of deeds, just a comparison of feelings. Many times people having a debate will say well "how would you feel if..." and it's really just a means to get them to see your feelings more than compare the actual factual event behind them. I suck at explaining, I know.

I know it wasn't supposed to be literal. I just don't like the comparison because I think that the HN has more legitimate cause to be upset at Howe actively seeking to kill the Couslands than Alistair in Loghain actively failing to save the Wardens. And Cailan. Many people disagree, I know.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I do fully acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the situation, I've never liked the Howe comparison. Howe personally has the Couslands killed for no other reason that we are told but to take Highever. If Howe had not given the order to attack, then we pretty much KNOW that while Bryce may have died at Ostagar, the others would have lived.

Loghain failed to charge and merely did not rescue them from the darkspawn they were already fighting. I believe that they would have died anyway and Loghain probably would have lost but even had he won he would have gotten a pyrrhic victory and been ill-equipped to face the Archdemon later (which admittedly he didn't really believe in at that time).

I really can't compare failing to save troops in a battle to slaughtering innocents in their home and Alistair's biggest objection to sparing Loghain and making him a Warden seem to spring from his actions at Ostagar.

I actually agree that it's not a fair comparison. The Cousland massacre is much more personal and an undeniable crime (Loghain's actions can be debated, Howe's not so much).

But for the purposes of comparing how the Warden and Alistair feel (since Alistair does take it very personal), it serves it's purpose.

LadyDamodred wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

My HNs would call it a betrayal.  Absolutely.  It is, in fact, a situation I've used in the past to illustrate how it feels to Alistair.  Now, you may be forgiving enough that you don't see it as that, but I am not.  And neither are my HNs.

But...that's the great thing.  The same situation and two very different views on it.

I understand what you mean.

It's not like my HN would be happy about it (she would likely ignore Alistair, pull out a dagger of her own and attempt to kill Howe anyway, whatever the consequences would be). But  as pissed as she would be, she still wouldn't call it a betrayal.

But you're right, to each their own.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Yankee23]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But, in game, you don't know that. In the place of the Wardens, all you know are the events of the game. So Alistair's "biggest objection" to Loghain, the Battle of Ostagar and the death of Cailan and the Wardens, ignoring the fact that he's been trying to kill you for a year and blamed Ostagar on you, is actually a pretty massive objection from his viewpoint.

I'm not trying to trivialize Alistair's objection. I was just saying that Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar and so thus I don't think bringing up Loghain's other actions would be very relevant as they were less personal to him. I'm not sure what I said that I couldn't know in-game. I don't know, for instance, that Loghain would have lost or that his victory would be meaningless but it's what I believed based on what I saw in-game from a non-meta POV so I don't see why any Wardens I have couldn't believe the same.

I don't think it's a LITERAL comparison of deeds, just a comparison of feelings. Many times people having a debate will say well "how would you feel if..." and it's really just a means to get them to see your feelings more than compare the actual factual event behind them. I suck at explaining, I know.

I know it wasn't supposed to be literal. I just don't like the comparison because I think that the HN has more legitimate cause to be upset at Howe actively seeking to kill the Couslands than Alistair in Loghain actively failing to save the Wardens. And Cailan. Many people disagree, I know.

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I know it wasn't supposed to be literal. I just don't like the comparison because I think that the HN has more legitimate cause to be upset at Howe actively seeking to kill the Couslands than Alistair in Loghain actively failing to save the Wardens. And Cailan. Many people disagree, I know.

Actually I don't disagree. When I first started Kasha and Alistair was all upset with Duncan dying and all that, and RAWR LOGHAIN I was sitting here going "DUDE?? Hi? Remember me? WHOLE FAMILY SLAUGHTERED? DIRECTLY by Howe's hand? Yeah I GET IT!!"

But then I realized Duncan/Grey Wardens = Alistair's Highever and I softened up a bit, because LACK of action resulting in the death of your family, is almost WORSE than the action being direct, if not being at least as bad.

But the part I don't get is "failed to save" the wardens. Noone asked him to SAVE them, just do what HE said he would do in the plan HE drew up. HE said he'd charge when the beacon was lit, then HE retreated. Noone wanted him to ride in on his white horse and save the day like a mideivil mighty mouse, they just expected him to follow the battle plan he layed out.

Edited to agree with Yankee's post above.

Modifié par Lady Jess, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

I know that Loghain also does that but that's not what Alistair's anger towards him is about (but it can fuel his resentment). In the same way, I highly doubt that many HNs would equate Howe's slaving, templar kidnapping, and noble torturing to the death of their family. If we are going to go the 'Alistair wants to make Howe a GW' route then the objection would likely stem from the 'that **** killed my family!'



Although I suppose there may be HNs who would be equally or more outraged at Howe's other crimes.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

I know that Loghain also does that but that's not what Alistair's anger towards him is about (but it can fuel his resentment). In the same way, I highly doubt that many HNs would equate Howe's slaving, templar kidnapping, and noble torturing to the death of their family. If we are going to go the 'Alistair wants to make Howe a GW' route then the objection would likely stem from the 'that **** killed my family!'

Although I suppose there may be HNs who would be equally or more outraged at Howe's other crimes.

Sure, because he's commiting these acts and carrying the title "Teyrn of Highever" so he's committing them and dragging your teyrnir through the mud while he's at it, which eventually may make it harder when you or Fergus take it back, you'd have a PR nightmare on your hands, and a crapton of distrust to smooth over.

[Sarah1281]

But the part I don't get is "failed to save" the wardens. Noone asked him to SAVE them, just do what HE said he would do in the plan HE drew up. HE said he'd charge when the beacon was lit, then HE retreated. Noone wanted him to ride in on his white horse and save the day like a mideivil mighty mouse, they just expected him to follow the battle plan he layed out.

I think that's just a wording issue. They were going to be killed by darkspawn. Had Loghain charged, they may not have been. Loghain might have been able to prevent their fate/save them from that fate. It was understood that he would charge which, regardless of what it would have meant for Loghain's army or Ferelden in general, stood a chance of preventing them from being killed by the darkspawn/saved them from the darkpsawn.

[tmp7704]

DahliaLynn wrote...

There will be a package included in the mod download site, so people will be able to choose regardless.
Still for those less mod savvy I have to make a default choice.

Just a thought, but a different way to go about it could be to have all dress variants added as outfits to the game, and then allow the player to pick the one they want in a small "wedding preparation" dialogue-based cutscene.

[Maria13]

Schratty wrote...

This is well-stated. Still, I've always sided with Alistair. It's silly, I know, but I do it because I have a larger emotional investment in his character than I do Loghain's. What can I say? He's got me wrapped around his little finger

... And you even style your hair like him...

[Aeowyn]

Well in grief you blame the person who is easiest to blame. In this case, Loghain.

Alistair never felt like belonged anywhere until he joined the Grey Wardens, and truly I would like to know more about his 6 months as a Grey Warden, but I believe that since he finally felt like belonged and he finally felt that he was home, he latched on to that. When they died, he blamed Loghain for it because he just happened to be the person who left the field (personally I understand why he did it, but that's another discussion).

Anyway, that anger towards Loghain, adding the fact that Loghain blames the Wardens for the death of the King, just gets more and more intense. So when he finally gets to meet him in the Landsmeet, and Loghain not only survives but get to join the Wardens, the only thing Alistair had that felt like a family, that anger just gets overloaded.

I can see why he sees it as a betrayal, I can also see why he leaves. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it.

[errant_knight]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

I know that Loghain also does that but that's not what Alistair's anger towards him is about (but it can fuel his resentment). In the same way, I highly doubt that many HNs would equate Howe's slaving, templar kidnapping, and noble torturing to the death of their family. If we are going to go the 'Alistair wants to make Howe a GW' route then the objection would likely stem from the 'that **** killed my family!'

Although I suppose there may be HNs who would be equally or more outraged at Howe's other crimes.

Sure, because he's commiting these acts and carrying the title "Teyrn of Highever" so he's committing them and dragging your teyrnir through the mud while he's at it, which eventually may make it harder when you or Fergus take it back, you'd have a PR nightmare on your hands, and a crapton of distrust to smooth over.

Well, not for my HN. That never occurred as a factor. She sees Howe as utterly illegitimate, and whatever he wants to call himself, or whatever power he has, he'll never be the true Teyrn of Highever. And he's certainly no Cousland. She doesn't believe that people will continue to believe any of that once Howe's crimes are exposed. It really has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that everything he's doing is so damned wrong in her eyes. His crimes cause outrage just because they're horrible crimes.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:32 .

[Schratty]

Maria13 wrote...

Schratty wrote...

This is well-stated. Still, I've always sided with Alistair. It's silly, I know, but I do it because I have a larger emotional investment in his character than I do Loghain's. What can I say? He's got me wrapped around his little finger

... And you even style your hair like him...

Well, My HMN does, anyway...Don't think that hairdo would be too flattering on me

[Lady Jess]

errant_knight wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

I know that Loghain also does that but that's not what Alistair's anger towards him is about (but it can fuel his resentment). In the same way, I highly doubt that many HNs would equate Howe's slaving, templar kidnapping, and noble torturing to the death of their family. If we are going to go the 'Alistair wants to make Howe a GW' route then the objection would likely stem from the 'that **** killed my family!'

Although I suppose there may be HNs who would be equally or more outraged at Howe's other crimes.

Sure, because he's commiting these acts and carrying the title "Teyrn of Highever" so he's committing them and dragging your teyrnir through the mud while he's at it, which eventually may make it harder when you or Fergus take it back, you'd have a PR nightmare on your hands, and a crapton of distrust to smooth over.

Well, not for my HN. That never occurred as a factor. She sees Howe as utterly illegitimate, and whatever he wants to call himself, or whatever power he has, he'll never be the true Teyrn of Highever. And he's certainly no Cousland. She doesn't believe that people will continue to believe any of that once Howe's crimes are exposed. It really has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that everything he's doing is so damned wrong in her eyes.

All it takes is ONE vocal disbeliever to cause problems. Just one. Noone is immune to it, unless they are equipped with a halo and wings:)

[errant_knight]

Lady Jess wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair's objections spring from Ostagar but that's not all Loghain does. He has been blaming them for the death of Cailen, trying to have them killed, selling elves into slavery, poisoning Eamon and allowing Howe to continue his depravity. In that light the comparison to Howe is a litte more justified.

I know that Loghain also does that but that's not what Alistair's anger towards him is about (but it can fuel his resentment). In the same way, I highly doubt that many HNs would equate Howe's slaving, templar kidnapping, and noble torturing to the death of their family. If we are going to go the 'Alistair wants to make Howe a GW' route then the objection would likely stem from the 'that **** killed my family!'

Although I suppose there may be HNs who would be equally or more outraged at Howe's other crimes.

Sure, because he's commiting these acts and carrying the title "Teyrn of Highever" so he's committing them and dragging your teyrnir through the mud while he's at it, which eventually may make it harder when you or Fergus take it back, you'd have a PR nightmare on your hands, and a crapton of distrust to smooth over.

Well, not for my HN. That never occurred as a factor. She sees Howe as utterly illegitimate, and whatever he wants to call himself, or whatever power he has, he'll never be the true Teyrn of Highever. And he's certainly no Cousland. She doesn't believe that people will continue to believe any of that once Howe's crimes are exposed. It really has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that everything he's doing is so damned wrong in her eyes.

All it takes is ONE vocal disbeliever to cause problems. Just one. Noone is immune to it, unless they are equipped with a halo and wings:)

All I'm saying is it's not something that ever occurred to her. I suspect that it never would. She's too confident about her family name and it's value. That, and she'd never stop fighting until her family honor was restored. The alternative is unthinkable--literally.

[Tigress M]

Zjarcal wrote...
I'm sorry to bring the discussion back to this topic, but I just hate it when people say that the Warden betrays Alistair. Alistair may interpret it as a betrayal, but all you did was refuse to kill a man. If the Warden had plotted with Loghain behind Alistair's back and/or had switched to Loghain's side while the arguments were still being discussed in the Landsmeet, that would be a betrayal.

What happens in game is that you win a duel, refuse to execute the loser, and then give him a chance at redemption. At no point did my Warden say, "screw you Alistair, I'm recruiting Loghain to break your spirit!". Alistair may interpret it like that, but it sure wasn't a betrayal.

To put in a different perspective, if playing a HN, Alistair was in a situation where he could decide Rendon Howe's fate and refused to execute him while deciding to give him a chance to redeem himself, while I'd be pissed, I would never call that a betrayal.

For the record, I'm not really bothered by Alistair's reaction. Well, him abandoning everything instead of staying and fighting alongiside Eamon does bother me, but his refusal to fight alongside Loghain doesn't bother me. Talk of betrayal does.

I, for one, don't think the question is whether or not the Warden actually did betray him.  I think the point is that Alistair thought they had.  Right or wrong, that's how I think he feels.  And if he wanted to spare Howe, unlike you, my HN would feel betrayed because she would feel like Alistair didn't understand just how much that man hurt her and her family, or didn't care in the grand scheme of things.  But again, I am not saying the Warden's feelings are merited, but I am sure that's exactly how she would feel.  

[Tigress M]

Schratty wrote...
This is well-stated. Still, I've always sided with Alistair. It's silly, I know, but I do it because I have a larger emotional investment in his character than I do Loghain's. What can I say? He's got me wrapped around his little finger

I do too, for that very reason.  As I mentioned earlier this morning, my Wardens follow their hearts, not their heads when it comes to Alistair.  And I'm perfectly happy with that!  

[Aeowyn]

So, you kill a man so that the man you love can get his revenge?

[errant_knight]

Aeowyn wrote...

So, you kill a man so that the man you love can get his revenge?

Not why my warden does it, but I'm concerned that we're getting rather close to returning to this mornings kerfuffle if I say anything further, so I won't.

[Tigress M]

Well, actually I have Alistair kill him, but yes. Right or wrong, my Wardens usually come to care more about Alistair than Ferelden politics or even the Blight. I fully understand that's not how everyone likes to play their game, but for me, that's the most enjoyable and this is, after all, supposed to be fun.

[Lady Jess]

errant_knight wrote...

All I'm saying is it's not something that ever occurred to her. I suspect that it never would. She's too confident about her family name and it's value. That, and she'd never stop fighting until her family honor was restored. The alternative is unthinkable--literally.

Ok, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that SOME couslands would find the Howe's acts while holding the title Teyrn of Highever to be a concern and reflection on their family name, and hate him for that as well as slaughtering their family. Kasha is Alistair's queen, and Warden Commander, so clearly she's holding up the honor of the Cousland name just fine in those positions. That doesn't mean she can't hate howe that much more for the fact that he used that title while he committed heinous acts against humanity, and possibly even the people of the teyrnir, and feel that they need to be addressed right alongside her family being murdered. I mean seriously, if he slaughtered the Couslands, maker only knows what he did to the people of Highever proper. It looks pretty bad to Kasha if she doesn't avenge that too. I just wish she could do it publicly.

[Yankee23]

We shouldn't let the "kerfuffle" discourage discussion. Imo, it has stayed respectful so far.

[Giggles_Manically]

I wonder if as many people would have trouble sparing Loghain if Alistair did not leave the party.

That seems to be the vast extent of it:

I dont want to lose Alistair! <kills Loghain>



Not saying that is the ONLY reason, but it seems to be the most popular one.

[errant_knight]

Yankee23 wrote...

We shouldn't let the "kerfuffle" discourage discussion. Imo, it has stayed respectful so far.

We must have different defintions of respectful. I thought that got darned ugly.

[mellifera]

I usually don't spare Loghain in my games, but it isn't just because of Alistair. If my reasons cannot stand on their own besides "Alistair wants him dead", then I'd really see no reason to kill Loghain and Alistair can leave. Killing someone for no reason besides your boyfriend wanting him to die isn't right. 

But I do feel that given on his actions, and since I cannot imprison him or have any other options besides making him a Warden (which I do not view a fitting punishment),  Loghain should die.

Modifié par yukidama, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Yankee23]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I wonder if as many people would have trouble sparing Loghain if Alistair did not leave the party.
That seems to be the vast extent of it:
I dont want to lose Alistair!

Not saying that is the ONLY reason, but it seems to be the most popular one.

Idk, I don't think the majority of reasons I have noticed in this thread are "because I lurve Alistair", outside of this thread however, I agree that is the popular perception of why it is done. I killed Loghain on my first playthrough and had no idea Alistair would leave if I didn't.