39010 réponses à ce sujet

[La_Duchessa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Realy, slavery to finance a war is acceptable?

Have you ever opened a history book in your entire life?

I agree with rak72, however this did happed in the past. Just about everyone did it. BUT that doesn't mean it was acceptable. Thank God we have learnt from our mistakes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Ejolsin.
Very well put and that's why I sympathize with Alistair. I strongly disagree with him and I believe what he dide was immature and irrational, but understandable. It's not enough to change my mind, but for what its worth, I sympathize.

LadyDamodred wrote...

Yeah, Alistair is broken in some ways, I don't think anyone here refutes that. Maybe not as badly as some other characters, but broken nonetheless.

Not to try to generate sympathy or change anyone's mind, but I believe if there is one character who suffered the most as a child, it would be Loghain.

I do believe and can't even come close to imagining it, that the most horrifying thing one can do to a child is to force him to watch his mother get raped and killed while he is helpless and powerless to do anything about it.

A big reason why I admire Loghain is that he was not really broken by this and he never used it or told us about it, not even hinted at it, to earn sympathy. Others would have been shattered utterly by this. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Thank God we have learnt from our mistakes.

The Rise of so many of our Ancient Empires and Medieval Ones have been mistakes eh? I don't think so.

[rak72]

Many wars have also been fought for the express porpose of ending slavery and opression. But if Stalin did it, then I guess its ok.

[Costin_Razvan]

rak72 wrote...

Many wars have also been fought for the express porpose of ending slavery and opression. But if Stalin did it, then I guess its ok.

How many so called wars that were fought to end slavery did end up with the rise of a Supwerpower? And spare me the sarcasm with regards to Stalin. The only reason the Germans didn't win WW2 was that he was far more brutal then Hitler dreamed of.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

La_Duchessa wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Realy, slavery to finance a war is acceptable?

Have you ever opened a history book in your entire life?

I agree with rak72, however this did happed in the past. Just about everyone did it. BUT that doesn't mean it was acceptable. Thank God we have learnt from our mistakes.

If everyone did it, that means it was seen as acceptable by them. We now believe it isn't. In the future, we might change our minds (it's laughable how many times humans thought they reached enlightenment and how they believe they are much better than those who came before them. I believe Sten said something to that effect).

In the context of Ferelden, it's illegal, but it's not terrible. The Landsmeet can still vote for Loghain even after they find out about slavery issue. In the larger scheme of things, it's a pretty small thing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

Many wars have also been fought for the express porpose of ending slavery and opression.

Really?

Many wars were fought to end the oppression and slavery of some, and ended up oppressing and enslaving others.

[rak72]

I wonder how small a thing slaver would be to you if you were the oppressd minority.

[nos_astra]

I have to agree with KoP and Costin.
Thedas is a world with it's own rules, what we believe or not should not necessarily apply there.
Slavery is common, elves are considered inferior, mages are widely feared, blood magic is considered abhorrent, the Chantry is a powerful organization who is valued and trusted by the simple folk.

Same things happened in history.

I wonder how small a thing slaver would be to you if you were the oppressd minority.

True, but you don't always play the minority.
A city elf could be outraged.
A Dalish could be inclined to believe the flatears are getting what they deserve for being such sheep.
A dwarf could be indifferent.
A human noble could be hypocritical, the elves don't suffer as much in the Highever alienage but they do live in one and aren't seen as equals.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Jon Jern_]

I wish Elves happened in history too

[Yankee23]

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

I wonder how small a thing slaver would be to you if you were the oppressd minority.

A sentimentalist argument. If I was in the oppressed minority, I would become partial and my capability to become objective would be compromised.

However, even when I wil be fighting for my freedom, I can still attempt to be objective and as humanly or elvenly possible be impartial and see things as they are. And I can see that this is a small issue in the larger scheme of things. Doesn't mean I have to accept it. 

This is not compeltely alien to me. I come from a region where we have suffered quite a lot and I was raised in an environment where the idea that it was what others did to us that resulted in us being in this state we are in, was prevalent. Of course, thanks to my parents raising me properly, I believe I managed to have a much fuller and objective picture and I stopped hating the countries and governments I was *supposed* to hate.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Lady Jess]

Fergus: "Hope you know what you're getting into Majesty...she's a handful"





Kasha: Do shut up Brother





Kasha has defeated the blight, requested Gwaren as her boon, and married the king. Making The Couslands the most powerful family in Ferelden, and she gets the man she loves. I'd call that happily ever after.

[Wulfram]

klarabella wrote...

Thedas is a world with it's own rules, what we believe or not should not necessarily apply there.

The rules of Ferelden say slavery is wrong.

[Briiel]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I must say, KoP, I still do not understand your rational for executing Alistair for desertion and not Loghain.

It never comes to one single reason for Knight or me. We do things for many reasons, and none of our choices are taken lightly. Political implications are considered first and foremost and then moral ones.

In my many discussions with KoP, that is always his reason for exectuing Alistair:  He considers it desertion and desertion in a time of war is punishable by death.  Which is fine...if it were applied equally.  >.>

Agreed! I ask this question then to Costin and KoP. You will execute Alistair for desertion but not Lohgain ?? He left the battle at Ostagar ,(strategic or otherwise) He was the one that was vehement on not waiting for extra troops. Told the king that their plan would suffice.

[Jon Jern_]

Yankee23 wrote...

Loghains Executer

Restriction : Alistair
Dragonbone (Tier 7)
+10 Damage to River Dane heroes.
Look at the size of it!
-1 Strength
Congratulations Alistair, you are officially a Douchebag.

Modifié par Jon Jern , 31 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Thedas is a world with it's own rules, what we believe or not should not necessarily apply there.

The rules of Ferelden say slavery is wrong.

Not up to the point where it becomes a deal breaker.

The Chantry issue and Anora's support count for a lot more.

[Lady Jess]

Briiel wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I must say, KoP, I still do not understand your rational for executing Alistair for desertion and not Loghain.

It never comes to one single reason for Knight or me. We do things for many reasons, and none of our choices are taken lightly. Political implications are considered first and foremost and then moral ones.

In my many discussions with KoP, that is always his reason for exectuing Alistair:  He considers it desertion and desertion in a time of war is punishable by death.  Which is fine...if it were applied equally.  >.>

Agreed! I ask this question then to Costin and KoP. You will execute Alistair for desertion but not Lohgain ?? He left the battle at Ostagar ,(strategic or otherwise) He was the one that was vehement on not waiting for extra troops. Told the king that their plan would suffice.

He answered that in detail a couple pages ago:)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Briiel wrote...
Agreed! I ask this question then to Costin and KoP. You will execute Alistair for desertion but not Lohgain ??

I delt with that in my humongus post.

[Lady Jess]

Jon Jern wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Loghains Executer

Restriction : Alistair
Dragonbone (Tier 7)
+10 Damage to River Dane heroes.
Look at the size of it!
-1 Strength
Congratulations Alistair, you are officially a Douchebag.

That was uncalled for, if you have nothing to contribute, stay quiet.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Thedas is a world with it's own rules, what we believe or not should not necessarily apply there.

The rules of Ferelden say slavery is wrong.

True, but that doesn't mean selling elves to Tevinter is wrong. It's a bit shady, but alas, it's only a bunch of elves after all.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Jon Jern_]

Lady Jess wrote...

Jon Jern wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...

Loghains Executer

Restriction : Alistair
Dragonbone (Tier 7)
+10 Damage to River Dane heroes.
Look at the size of it!
-1 Strength
Congratulations Alistair, you are officially a Douchebag.

That was uncalled for, if you have nothing to contribute, stay quiet.

It's okay, this thread derails all the time. Someone who can read can look in here and jump pages and can figure that out.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not to try to generate sympathy or change anyone's mind, but I believe if there is one character who suffered the most as a child, it would be Loghain.

I do believe and can't even come close to imagining it, that the most horrifying thing one can do to a child is to force him to watch his mother get raped and killed while he is helpless and powerless to do anything about it.

A big reason why I admire Loghain is that he was not really broken by this and he never used it or told us about it, not even hinted at it, to earn sympathy. Others would have been shattered utterly by this. 

So your arguments re Loghain are also sentimental.

No he just internalized it and allowed it to make sick, bitter, self-centered and unreliable and fuel his irrational hatred of all things orlesian... Or which he perceives to be orlesian which is not exactly the same.

Modifié par Maria13, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

The first time I saw Alistair's outburst at the Landsmeet I was quite horrified, actually. Up until that point I really liked him as a character (not so much as a romance - I like him better as a friend), and it took a long while before I was able to like him again.
But, the outburst is understandable if you consider that he is a very young man - one suffering from survivor's guilt and abandonment issues. I get the sense that his hatred of Loghain is actually him projecting. He has been rejected by his father, then by Arl Eamon, so his self worth at that point isn't high. Then he is finally accepted by Duncan and feels a dispoportionate sense of gratitude towards him due to his earlier rejections (the subsequent rejection by Goldanna doesn't help much, either). When Duncan is killed, he lashes out at the man he perceives to be responsible, but actually, he also hates himself a little bit for living while Duncan died. This is born out by his lack of confidence to lead and that fact that all his humour is self-deprecating. He appears funny and charming, but deep down he is quite damaged.
Then you get to Landsmeet, and the Warden spares Loghain. Suddenly, Alistair is being rejected again, or at least, that is how it feels to him. He goes nuclear.
It's not a nice thing to witness but I understand it. (It doesn't change my decision to spare Loghain, mind you...but then I'm more of a Loghain fan so no surprise there).

Very well said. I do not know Alistair's actual age (He looks like he is in his early thirties but behaves like someone much younger who has suffered much abuse in the form of neglect and rejection) but I agree that he is young and still has many lessons to learn. Being "betrayed" by the only person he has come to trust/love (That happens in my playthroughs, my gals can never resist him) causes his emotions to boil over. Which is why I would have liked to talk him down afterwards. Show him that sparing Loghain was not done to re-open those wounds. (Which are, by that point, far from healed) Do I agree with his outbursts/irresponsible grab for the crown etc.? No. I think this needs to happen, much more so than the hardening to strengthen him. It saddens me to see that it breaks him and I HOPE that DA2 will give us an opportunity to give him the support he needs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
No he just internalized it and allowed it to make sick, bitter, self-centered and unreliable and fuel his irrational hatred of all things orlesian... Or which he perceives to be orlesian which is not exactly the same.

That's another interpretation I guess.

EDIT: And no, my argument is not sentimental since I did not mention this particular point in the post explaining my rational at all. Since of course my character did not know any of this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:59 .