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[Jon Jern_]

Lady Jess wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Jon Jern wrote...

I planned my Warden to marry Alistair, so I figured that letting him fight Loghain in the duel would be the way to that route. As soon it was over he executed Loghain and decided to take the throne by himself. I wasn't amused.

Ah, you hardened him before? I think if you do that, you won't be asked to choose.

You actually should get the choice as a Human Noble, but no other Origin.

I did not.  As in, I did not have the option. I did Human Noble'd

Modifié par Jon Jern , 31 octobre 2010 - 10:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Briiel wrote...
Ok here is my view on this . My family comes from a long line of military. My sister is 7th generation in the armed forces. I grew up for 20 yrs along side military obligations. As a military dependant I knew where I stood in the bigger scheme of things.I also know that the military goes by a certain creed. "Leave No Man BEHIND"
To me that is exactly what Lohgain did.He Left his fellow man at arms to die. General or not.

Because this had me into think mode I contacted a friend of my family's who is a General for the United States Air Force. I explained to him the discussion going on. He said while in some points he can see what Lohgain did as tactical. Other things he did would have had him removed from post because he is not in his right mind because he is letting  past views dictate his command. Therefore jeopordizing his command.

I hope I stated this correctly.

While I of course appreciate the effort, modern military ethics is quite different from medieval ones. The idea of "no man gets left behind" was probably alien to them. I am not really sure if any medieval army had this as a primary concern.

Also, the USA has modern institutions and mechanisms to court marshall generals, if they violate rules set up by the civil government and the constitution. Such things do not exist in Ferelden. I do not know the specifics, but I doubt medieval countries had similar mechanisms.

By a modern view point, of course there are lots of issues in what Loghain did. But can we apply those modern ethics and laws (that are in Western democracies) to a medieval setting? I am not so sure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 10:16 .

[nos_astra]

@Jon Jern
Ah, that could be possible if you are below 100 approval.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Lady Jess]

Ok just ran through it, Hardened Alistair, lost the landsmeet (damned old saves...that wasn't fun) let Alistair duel/execute Loghain, and still go the choice to rule beside him as a HNF.

[Jon Jern_]

I see.

[inclemency]

My Warden is what Loghein called her...

[Lady Jess]

Jon Jern wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Jon Jern wrote...

I planned my Warden to marry Alistair, so I figured that letting him fight Loghain in the duel would be the way to that route. As soon it was over he executed Loghain and decided to take the throne by himself. I wasn't amused.

Ah, you hardened him before? I think if you do that, you won't be asked to choose.

You actually should get the choice as a Human Noble, but no other Origin.

I did not.  As in, I did not have the option. I did Human Noble'd

Then you lack the coercion for the persuade check and aren't in a romance or high enough approval. I believe the "love" flag is an automatic persuade check pass, but if not then you need the coercion to pull it off.

I just did it myself from an old save.

[Jon Jern_]

I see. I will have to do that.

Modifié par Jon Jern , 31 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I know that if Alistair is hardened that you can still name Anora Queen if he kills Loghain.



I let him do it though, once using it as a sort of final shove into ruling as my Human Noble Chancellor.

[Lady Jess]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I know that if Alistair is hardened that you can still name Anora Queen if he kills Loghain.

I let him do it though, once using it as a sort of final shove into ruling as my Human Noble Chancellor.

Right, I should have said only Human Nobles get a choice, because both do...but you still need the approval and/or coercion depending on your relationship right?

[Tigress M]

Junior?



Inclemency, I just had to take a pic to show you that you're not alone.

[inclemency]

Lol, I love it, Tigress! Great shot

[CalJones]

The difference is, with Anora, you have to set it up beforehand (when she's at Eamon's estate) whereas you can just spring it on Alistair at the Landsmeet. Not that I've ever done that, actually...He's the one romance I haven't managed to complete. Happily, anyway.

[Briiel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Briiel wrote...
Ok here is my view on this . My family comes from a long line of military. My sister is 7th generation in the armed forces. I grew up for 20 yrs along side military obligations. As a military dependant I knew where I stood in the bigger scheme of things.I also know that the military goes by a certain creed. "Leave No Man BEHIND"
To me that is exactly what Lohgain did.He Left his fellow man at arms to die. General or not.

Because this had me into think mode I contacted a friend of my family's who is a General for the United States Air Force. I explained to him the discussion going on. He said while in some points he can see what Lohgain did as tactical. Other things he did would have had him removed from post because he is not in his right mind because he is letting  past views dictate his command. Therefore jeopordizing his command.

I hope I stated this correctly.

While I of course appreciate the effort, modern military ethics is quite different from medieval ones. The idea of "no man gets left behind" was probably alien to them. I am not really sure if any medieval army had this as a primary concern.

Also, the USA has modern institutions and mechanisms to court marshall generals, if they violate rules set up by the civil government and the constitution. Such things do not exist in Ferelden. I do not know the specifics, but I doubt medieval countries had similar mechanisms.

By a modern view point, of course there are lots of issues in what Loghain did. But can we apply those modern ethics and laws (that are in Western democracies) to a medieval setting? I am not so sure.

I understand on this but I am saying from a military perspective. While I know thru out the military history things change . But I am saying from what I knew as a child this is how I precieve things. So while it doesn't stand in medievil times . It comes across in how I play my characters !

[KnightofPhoenix]

Briiel wrote...
I understand on this but I am saying from a military perspective. While I know thru out the military history things change . But I am saying from what I knew as a child this is how I precieve things. So while it doesn't stand in medievil times . It comes across in how I play my characters !

I understand. I think all of us in one way or another project our modern beliefs and biases onto our characters, especially our canons, consciously or otherwise. So yea, I understand 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ok here is my view on this . My family comes from a long line of military. My sister is 7th generation in the armed forces. I grew up for 20 yrs along side military obligations. As a military dependant I knew where I stood in the bigger scheme of things.I also know that the military goes by a certain creed. "Leave No Man BEHIND"
To me that is exactly what Lohgain did.He Left his fellow man at arms to die. General or not.

Because this had me into think mode I contacted a friend of my family's who is a General for the United States Air Force. I explained to him the discussion going on. He said while in some points he can see what Lohgain did as tactical. Other things he did would have had him removed from post because he is not in his right mind because he is letting past views dictate his command. Therefore jeopordizing his command.

I don't see your first point. Loghain is a general, not a common trooper and as such operates under different circumstances. I have been around military myself for a very large chunk of my life ( since I eight to be exact ) and I can tell you this: The difference in thinking between Sheep and Lions is the same as the Moon to the Sun, and as Knight pointed out: Medieval Warfare is vastly different from Modern Warfare, I can testify to that. The military doctrine of "Leave No man behind" is actually an American modern one.

Now no offence, but American laws, ethics, military tactics etc. etc. etc. cannot be applied to the entire world let alone Thedas.

In regards to your second point, before I argue further I would like to know exactly what you told him in regards to the situation? Did you mention the fact Celene is gathering four Legions of Chevaliers and that she had a plan to marry Cailan? Did you mention Fereldan's past history? Did you mention that Loghain did not believe Ostagar could be won ( as implied heavily by the gate guard in Ostagar )?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Briiel]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ok here is my view on this . My family comes from a long line of military. My sister is 7th generation in the armed forces. I grew up for 20 yrs along side military obligations. As a military dependant I knew where I stood in the bigger scheme of things.I also know that the military goes by a certain creed. "Leave No Man BEHIND"
To me that is exactly what Lohgain did.He Left his fellow man at arms to die. General or not.

Because this had me into think mode I contacted a friend of my family's who is a General for the United States Air Force. I explained to him the discussion going on. He said while in some points he can see what Lohgain did as tactical. Other things he did would have had him removed from post because he is not in his right mind because he is letting past views dictate his command. Therefore jeopordizing his command.

I don't see your first point. Loghain is a general, not a common trooper and as such operates under different circumstances. I have been around military myself for a very large chunk of my life ( since I eight to be exact ) and I can tell you this: The difference in thinking between Sheep and Lions is the same as the Moon to the Sun, and as Knight pointed out: Medieval Warfare is vastly different from Modern Warfare, I can testify to that. The military doctrine of "Leave No man behind" is actually an American modern one.

Now no offence, but American laws, ethics, military tactics etc. etc. etc. cannot be applied to the entire world let alone Thedas.

In regards to your second point, before I argue further I would like to know exactly what you told him in regards to the situation? Did you mention the fact Celene is gathering four Legions of Chevaliers and that she had a plan to marry Cailan? Did you mention Fereldan's past history? Did you mention that Loghain did not believe Ostagar could be won ( as implied heavily by the gate guard in Ostagar )?

Ok at what point is our warden ,Alistair or our characters ever told this ?? When at Ostagar were you told that Celene was gathering troops??

*edit* As I said to KoP, Some of my own real up bringing comes out in how I deal with things with my characters. I try not to meta game tho . I do not remember being told at Ostagar other than a heated battle between Lohgain and Cailan about anything with Orlais . I do not know this about Cailan and Celene.

Modifié par Briiel, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The gate guard at Ostagar ( from the very gate you come from with Duncan ) tells you this:

"Three units of men are ariving today by the hour and they expect to double that tommorow. The Teryn doesn't think it will be enough though."  It can be easily missed I suppose so.

In regards to the Orlesian Legions. Riordan and Loghain tell you this ( that she is gathering troops ) and Celene's note in RTO tells you she was planning to marry Cailan.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Lady Jess]

Briiel wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ok here is my view on this . My family comes from a long line of military. My sister is 7th generation in the armed forces. I grew up for 20 yrs along side military obligations. As a military dependant I knew where I stood in the bigger scheme of things.I also know that the military goes by a certain creed. "Leave No Man BEHIND"
To me that is exactly what Lohgain did.He Left his fellow man at arms to die. General or not.

Because this had me into think mode I contacted a friend of my family's who is a General for the United States Air Force. I explained to him the discussion going on. He said while in some points he can see what Lohgain did as tactical. Other things he did would have had him removed from post because he is not in his right mind because he is letting past views dictate his command. Therefore jeopordizing his command.

I don't see your first point. Loghain is a general, not a common trooper and as such operates under different circumstances. I have been around military myself for a very large chunk of my life ( since I eight to be exact ) and I can tell you this: The difference in thinking between Sheep and Lions is the same as the Moon to the Sun, and as Knight pointed out: Medieval Warfare is vastly different from Modern Warfare, I can testify to that. The military doctrine of "Leave No man behind" is actually an American modern one.

Now no offence, but American laws, ethics, military tactics etc. etc. etc. cannot be applied to the entire world let alone Thedas.

In regards to your second point, before I argue further I would like to know exactly what you told him in regards to the situation? Did you mention the fact Celene is gathering four Legions of Chevaliers and that she had a plan to marry Cailan? Did you mention Fereldan's past history? Did you mention that Loghain did not believe Ostagar could be won ( as implied heavily by the gate guard in Ostagar )?

Ok at what point is our warden ,Alistair or our characters ever told this ?? When at Ostagar were you told that Celene was gathering troops??

The Grey Wardens from Orlais, as requested by Cailan were on their way, Duncan tells you he thinks the should wait for them. They were indeed bringing 4 legions of Chavaliers, and were stopped and turned around at the border.

That part I remember, but I have yet to see concrete absolute proof there was a marriage to Celene anywhere in the works, a truce, yes, a possible working relationship between countries even. But Cailan was REFUSING to drop Anora, hence the rift between him and Eamon at the time. Yet I keep seeing people say "cailan was going to marry Celene!!"

[Costin_Razvan]

But Cailan was REFUSING to drop Anora, hence the rift between him and Eamon at the time. Yet I keep seeing people say "cailan was going to marry Celene!!"

Want me to find the very video Gaider confirms that Cailan was planning to dump Anora?

  As I said to KoP, Some of my own real up bringing comes out in how I deal with things with my characters. I try not to meta game tho . I do not remember being told at Ostagar other than a heated battle between Lohgain and Cailan about anything with Orlais . I do not know this about Cailan and Celene.

My point was to find out what kind of argument you presented to the general though. I ain't surprised though: Loghain would get removed in the modern age IF the argument was made that he was paranoid about Orlais.

Thing is, would he get a court marshal?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Briiel]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The gate guard at Ostagar ( from the very gate you come from with Duncan ) tells you this:

"Three units of men are ariving today by the hour and they expect to double that tommorow. The Teryn doesn't think it will be enough though."  It can be easily missed I suppose so.

In regards to the Orlesian Legions. Riordan and Loghain tell you this ( that she is gathering troops ) and Celene's note in RTO tells you she was planning to marry Cailan.

This is all after what's said and done.

If I make a new character I will have to remember to talk to the gate guard. I don't remember him saying that Orlesian troops were on there way.

Modifié par Briiel, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Lady Jess]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

But Cailan was REFUSING to drop Anora, hence the rift between him and Eamon at the time. Yet I keep seeing people say "cailan was going to marry Celene!!"

Want me to find the very video Gaider confirms that Cailan was planning to dump Anora?

I just want to know where the heck it comes from, because the letters to Eamon are a direct contrast, and yeah he was talking to Celene but nowhere hinted at Marriage. I mean if we have to prove obscure things we see in the game, then surely there's proof of impending marriage between Cailan and Celene. And dumping Anora, even if confirmed by Gaider, does not = marry the Empress of Orlais.

[Costin_Razvan]

This is all after what's said and done.

No it's not. You still have time to decide Loghain's fate.

Only a fool jumps to a conclusion that quickly, no personal offence but it seems this is what you are doing.

 And dumping Anora, even if confirmed by Gaider, does not = marry the Empress of Orlais.

The question was: Was Cailan going to dump Anora to marry Celene?

David Gaider's answer: Yes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Briiel]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This is all after what's said and done.

No it's not. You still have time to decide Loghain's fate.

Only a fool jumps to a conclusion that quickly, no personal offence but it seems this is what you are doing.

Ok I am talking about Ostagar, I HAVE NOT MET RHIO or been on a personal level . So how am I a fool for viewing things in a different manner.

[Costin_Razvan]

What is your conclusion then? That Loghain is paranoid about Orlais?

Please do very much explain the four legions of Chevaliers.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:43 .