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[Lady Jess]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This is all after what's said and done.

No it's not. You still have time to decide Loghain's fate.

Only a fool jumps to a conclusion that quickly, no personal offence but it seems this is what you are doing.

We had this discussion a while ago in here, and my husband who has played the game several times said the same thing as the General did. Yes, it was a sound tactical decision at the time. His mistake was letting his personal hatreds and paranoia rule his common sense afterwards. Instead of bickering in politics and entering a civil war, he should have been busting his butt to gear up for the blight. Had he just said AT the landsmeet, THIS is what happened, THIS is why, and listed TACTICAL reasons worthy of the Hero of Riverdane, he could have avoided so much, and gotten so far. Instead he uses the Orlesian threat as fuel.

Also...Bri, we know about the forces from Orlais at Ostagar, Cailan mentions them, and so does Duncan. Loghain doesn't want to wait for them.

[Costin_Razvan]

Instead of bickering in politics and entering a civil war, he should have been busting his butt to gear up for the blight. Had he just said AT the landsmeet, THIS is what happened, THIS is why, and listed TACTICAL reasons worthy of the Hero of Riverdane, he could have avoided so much, and gotten so far. Instead he uses the Orlesian threat as fuel.

You seems to forget what Teagan says when you ask him if he believes Loghain's lies.

"What? That he pulled out at Ostagar to save his men?" Seems to me that Loghain did tell the Landsmeet the truth, but also added the the Wardens betrayed Cailan....

And in a sense they did "betray" Cailan by not living up to his expectations of them performing miracles.

In a modern age losing the head of state would not hurt the ability for the Government to operate much, in a Medieval Age losing the King without an heir....and his wife being a commoner turned noble...well that would be a disaster.

 Also...Bri, we know about the forces from Orlais at Ostagar, Cailan mentions them, and so does Duncan. Loghain doesn't want to wait for them.  

Cailan doesn't want to wait at all, not even for Redcliffe forces. The only reason Cailan mentions them is to end the discussion with Loghain.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:56 .

[Briiel]

Lady Jess wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This is all after what's said and done.

No it's not. You still have time to decide Loghain's fate.

Only a fool jumps to a conclusion that quickly, no personal offence but it seems this is what you are doing.

We had this discussion a while ago in here, and my husband who has played the game several times said the same thing as the General did. Yes, it was a sound tactical decision at the time. His mistake was letting his personal hatreds and paranoia rule his common sense afterwards. Instead of bickering in politics and entering a civil war, he should have been busting his butt to gear up for the blight. Had he just said AT the landsmeet, THIS is what happened, THIS is why, and listed TACTICAL reasons worthy of the Hero of Riverdane, he could have avoided so much, and gotten so far. Instead he uses the Orlesian threat as fuel.

Also...Bri, we know about the forces from Orlais at Ostagar, Cailan mentions them, and so does Duncan. Loghain doesn't want to wait for them.

Yeah but Im talking about the whole marriage to whoever that is. Nowhere in Ostagar do you hear about that I mean before you go back to Ostagar to exact revenge

Modifié par Briiel, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Lady Jess]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Instead of bickering in politics and entering a civil war, he should have been busting his butt to gear up for the blight. Had he just said AT the landsmeet, THIS is what happened, THIS is why, and listed TACTICAL reasons worthy of the Hero of Riverdane, he could have avoided so much, and gotten so far. Instead he uses the Orlesian threat as fuel.

You seems to forget what Teagan says when you ask him if he believes Loghain's lies.

"What? That he pulled out at Ostagar to save his men?"

I don't forget, I'm just saying that's why my husband, an active duty infantry soldier, with a bronze star for valor and second bronze star earned in this deployment thought of the situation.  I happen to AGREE with his retreat, and so does he. But when he retreated his first move should have been regroup and be ready to fight again.

Loghain spoke more about Orlais than he should have at that point. Focus on the military tactics not on your hatred of the country up north. He could have easily had enough support that Teagan's voice would have been weakened.

Anyhow, we've been off topic enough in here, and as we know the old thread got slammed shut because of that. While discussions are fun and interesting we really need to get back to it before we get it again. Things haven't been the same since that thread, and I doubt we'd make another recovery^_^

Modifié par Lady Jess, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
We had this discussion a while ago in here, and my husband who has played the game several times said the same thing as the General did. Yes, it was a sound tactical decision at the time. His mistake was letting his personal hatreds and paranoia rule his common sense afterwards. Instead of bickering in politics and entering a civil war, he should have been busting his butt to gear up for the blight. Had he just said AT the landsmeet, THIS is what happened, THIS is why, and listed TACTICAL reasons worthy of the Hero of Riverdane, he could have avoided so much, and gotten so far. Instead he uses the Orlesian threat as fuel.

Are we so sure of that?

"Queen Fionne, who had the misfortune to take the throne in the eighteenth year of the Steel Age, wrote of the Bannorn, "There have been three wars this year fought over elopements. Five fought over wool. And one started by an apple tree. It isn't even winter yet. Who would believe that these same banns, now trying so hard to kill one another, just last year united to give me the crown?""

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

The Bannorn are not as rational as we'd like to believe.

I will definitely agree that Loghain handled it badly. But it's not because he bickered in politics. It's rather because he precisely wasn't political enough imo. He basically said "screw politics, I want them all to obey now we don't have time to discuss this", and the bannorn not being that rational said no. It's worth remembering that no bann took Maric seriously until Loghain stabbed the deserter in front of everyone, so he thought he could do the same here, I think.

He had little choice in "entering the civil war". He can't protect Ferelden if half of it decide to not follow his authority. What he should have done is try to coopt them more and imo, the civil war could have been alleviated, albeit not completely avoided (imo).  

EDIT: and while yes he saw Orlais as a threat and ultimately over-prioritized it (if that's a word), remember what he said in the first Denerin cutscene. He was talking about the Darkspawn there and not Orlais, when Teagan said "screw you".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Lady Jess]

"Lalala Alistair will shield bash eventually"





I can see Brosca being relaxed in the jail cell. But this is taking "c'est la vie" way too far.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain in the Cinematic: There is an enemy converging from our southern flank! We must rebuild our army and crush them, then deal with Orlais.

The Bannorn: F uck off.  You left Cailan to die you bastard, we want you dead.

Loghain: I will not accept this insubordination!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[mellifera]

I hope in DA2 at least there are some sort of struggling animations when they get picked up. The whole glassy-eyed ragdoll is pretty creepy ._.

[tuppence95]

Wow, you guys are still talking about Loghain?

Is there anyway to continue this discussion, but include Alistair so that we don't get jumped on?



I've a question for KoP and Costin.  How do you see Ferelden faring if Loghain's superior tactical choices had all succeeded?  If he successfully killed off Alistair and our pc in Lothering and turned away the other Grey Wardens and kept Riordan imprisoned in Howe's dungeon?  How do you think things would have ended?  

[Costin_Razvan]

I've a question for KoP and Costin. How do you see Ferelden faring if Loghain's superior tactical choices had all succeeded? If he successfully killed off Alistair and our pc in Lothering and turned away the other Grey Wardens and kept Riordan imprisoned in Howe's dungeon? How do you think things would have ended?

Based on the things we know. He did manage to field an army 3 times the size we had at the Final Battle. So I believe he would have had the manpower to win in a pitched battle ( or several in fact ) against The Darkspawn. He probably would have eventually enlisted the Dwarves as well.

Riordan would have revealed the truth in the end I think, and Loghain would have become a Grey Warden, killed the Archdemon and then left Howe in charge of Fereldan. Well Anora, but I can't see her surviving Howe for long.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Lady Jess]

yukidama wrote...

I hope in DA2 at least there are some sort of struggling animations when they get picked up. The whole glassy-eyed ragdoll is pretty creepy ._.

I know right??

[Costin_Razvan]

"Queen Fionne, who had the misfortune to take the throne in the eighteenth year of the Steel Age, wrote of the Bannorn, "There have been three wars this year fought over elopements. Five fought over wool. And one started by an apple tree. It isn't even winter yet. Who would believe that these same banns, now trying so hard to kill one another, just last year united to give me the crown?""

Wait, what?! They waged war over a SINGLE tree?

To hell with politics, just kill them all for crying out loud.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...

I've a question for KoP and Costin.  How do you see Ferelden faring if Loghain's superior tactical choices had all succeeded?  If he successfully killed off Alistair and our pc in Lothering and turned away the other Grey Wardens and kept Riordan imprisoned in Howe's dungeon?  How do you think things would have ended?

Ultimately Ferelden would have lost or would have had to accept foreign aid with Wardens. We barely won anyhow and only because the Archdemon was stupid enough to reveal itself, if it haden't, we would have probably lost as well.

But this depends on variables Loghain could not have known and I personally can't hold him responsable for his ignorance on something even I didn't know. I personally believe this is a hindsight argument, so I am not sure what's the point.

Of course you might think this is enough to damn him, but I don't really. It's a very consequentialist argument and Moore  (a consequentialist) would argue thatthis can only be used to assess whether an act is correct or not and it has little to do with the moral worth of the person doing the act and to imply otherwise would be committing what he called "the naturalistic fallacy".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[tuppence95]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I've a question for KoP and Costin. How do you see Ferelden faring if Loghain's superior tactical choices had all succeeded? If he successfully killed off Alistair and our pc in Lothering and turned away the other Grey Wardens and kept Riordan imprisoned in Howe's dungeon? How do you think things would have ended?

Based on the things we know. He did manage to field an army 3 times the size we had at the Final Battle. So I believe he would have had the manpower to win in a pitched battle ( or several in fact ) against The Darkspawn. He probably would have eventually enlisted the Dwarves as well.

Riordan would have revealed the truth in the end I think, and Loghain would have become a Grey Warden, killed the Archdemon and then left Howe in charge of Fereldan. Well Anora, but I can't see her surviving Howe for long.

No one seemed to be caring anything about Riordan.  Certainly not Howe.  The only reason he had any say in our current situation was because our wardens intervened.  He's not really part of the picture.  More likely there  would have been no Grey Wardens at all.

[Costin_Razvan]

No one seemed to be caring anything about Riordan. Certainly not Howe. The only reason he had any say in our current situation was because our wardens intervened. He's not really part of the picture. More likely there would have been no Grey Wardens at all.

Even so then Loghain would have likely asked for foreign Warden aid eventually.

[The Almighty Ali]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No one seemed to be caring anything about Riordan. Certainly not Howe. The only reason he had any say in our current situation was because our wardens intervened. He's not really part of the picture. More likely there would have been no Grey Wardens at all.

Even so then Loghain would have likely asked for foreign Warden aid eventually.

Both Mistake and Alistair aren't so sure about that.

[Corker]

Greetings, all!



I was dared to post my own Alistair morph over here. Hope that's okay:







Did I take the 'boyish' thing too far?

[Lady Jess]

OMG CUTEST COSTUME EVER!!!

[tuppence95]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I've a question for KoP and Costin.  How do you see Ferelden faring if Loghain's superior tactical choices had all succeeded?  If he successfully killed off Alistair and our pc in Lothering and turned away the other Grey Wardens and kept Riordan imprisoned in Howe's dungeon?  How do you think things would have ended?

Ultimately Ferelden would have lost or would have had to accept foreign aid with Wardens. We barely won anyhow and only because the Archdemon was stupid enough to reveal itself, if it haden't, we would have probably lost as well.

But this depends on variables Loghain could not have known and I personally can't hold him responsable for his ignorance on something even I didn't know. I personally believe this is a hindsight argument, so I am not sure what's the point.

Of course you might think this is enough to damn him, but I don't really. It's a very consequentialist argument and Moore  (a consequentialist) would argue thatthis can only be used to assess whether an act is correct or not and it has little to do with the moral worth of the person doing the act and to imply otherwise would be committing what he called "the naturalistic fallacy".

Maybe he can't be held responsible.  But like I said earlier, we hear it at the beginning of each origin story ... the Grey Wardens are the ones who save us from Blights.  Yes, like you said, it's an old wives tale.  But it is also part of history that in past Blights, the Grey Wardens were the ones to end the Blight.  I do hold Loghain responsible for completely disregarding the possibility that this legend could very well be true.  

None of us knew how they end the Blight, since Duncan didn't see fit to explain that to us before he died.  Alistair certainly didn't know.  But we did know that this was our purpose.  My Cousland was taught that in her lessons, and I'm sure Loghain must've heard the same.

[Yankee23]

@Corker...I love it! He is adorable!

[Persephone]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, Corker, that's ADORABLE!

[tuppence95]

Corker wrote...

Greetings, all!

I was dared to post my own Alistair morph over here. Hope that's okay:
*snip
Did I take the 'boyish' thing too far?

 What a cute Alistair!  Thanks for sharing that with us!!  

[tuppence95]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No one seemed to be caring anything about Riordan. Certainly not Howe. The only reason he had any say in our current situation was because our wardens intervened. He's not really part of the picture. More likely there would have been no Grey Wardens at all.

Even so then Loghain would have likely asked for foreign Warden aid eventually.

Both Mistake and Alistair aren't so sure about that.

I like your dwarf a lot!  Great job on his face and hair.  His name is Mistake?  Is there a story behind that?

[rak72]

Re: landsmeet/marriage - I don't think you need to be in love, because you can still have a political marriage to him without being in love. It must be the coersion.



Re: foreign reinforcements- Log would have thought his armies could defeat the DS when they invaded Denirum. He would have made his stand there, but there would be no GW to take out the AD. Denirum would have be anhialated along with Log, so I don't think he would have had a chance to ask Orlais for those reinforcements.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tuppence95 wrote...
Maybe he can't be held responsible.  But like I said earlier, we hear it at the beginning of each origin story ... the Grey Wardens are the ones who save us from Blights.  Yes, like you said, it's an old wives tale.  But it is also part of history that in past Blights, the Grey Wardens were the ones to end the Blight.  I do hold Loghain responsible for completely disregarding the possibility that this legend could very well be true.  

None of us knew how they end the Blight, since Duncan didn't see fit to explain that to us before he died.  Alistair certainly didn't know.  But we did know that this was our purpose.  My Cousland was taught that in her lessons, and I'm sure Loghain must've heard the same.

That being our purpose =/= us being the only ones who can do it.

The Wardens defeated the Blight in the past because they hade huge armies with them and I'd argue that the real hero of the Second Blight for instance was not the Wardens, but it was Emperor Kordillus Drakon I of Orlais.

Yes, I agree with you that Loghain dimissed it completely too quickly. He should have considered it more and perhaps even allow the Wardens to come in, without the Orlesian Legions. However, he was also, I think, suspicious of the Order itself which is definitely not politically neutral, collaborates heavily with Orlais, a few of them collaborated with Darkspawn, and tried to stage a Coup d'Etat in Ferelden in the past.
So all things considered, he had reasons to do what he did, even though I would have preferred if he had considered it more for sure.

EDIT:
Corker that's adorable!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:41 .