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[RagingCyclone]

Speaking of the royalty. I can't remember if it was Loghain or Howe that mentions that if Maric had died in the war with Orlais, that Bryce Cousland would most likely have been made king. Does anyone remember who said this?

EDIT for ToP

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[Tigress M]

@Maria - Why does it indicate he slept around?  Rowan was DEAD.  Was he expected to remain celibate the rest of his life?  I just don't see the nobles making that leap unless he fathered a bastard while Rowan was still alive, which, in the case of Fiona, isn't true.  

[tuppence95]

@Yankee - Very nice Alistair-Duncan Fade picture.

@Miri - Thanks for posting that.  What a great picture!  Alistair sure does enjoy breast-staring.  We've seen so many examples of him doing that.

@Tigress - I'm still a firm believer in the Fiona-Mother theory.  And I'll hold onto that believe until Gaider gives us evidence that it's not true.  I'm a little worried about his statement that we'll find out more about Maric & Fiona in DA2.  But I just find it hard to believe there's another bastard.  Even though we know he did it twice, Maric still didn't seem to be the fooling around type.  And I also find it hard to believe that Duncan had the responsibility of watching out for two different Maric bastards.

[tuppence95]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Speaking of the royalty. I can't remember if it was Loghain or Howe that mentions that if Maric had died in the war with Orlais, that Bryce Cousland would most likely have been made king. Does anyone remember who said this?
*snip

Dairren said that the talk was that Bryce should have gotten the crown instead of Cailan.  Not sure about him taking the crown in the war.

Edited to correct my statement.

Modifié par tuppence95, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[RagingCyclone]

tupp, yeah I remember that, but I am thinking this was about Maric and Bryce during the war. It's been a long time since I spared Loghain, but something makes me think it was a convo with him and the hn after the Landsmeet where he says this about if Maric had died in the war he would have been the end of the Therin bloodline, and that Bryce would then been the most likely person to take the throne once the war was over and Ferelden was free.

[Maria13]

Tigress M wrote...

@Maria - Why does it indicate he slept around?  Rowan was DEAD.  Was he expected to remain celibate the rest of his life?  I just don't see the nobles making that leap unless he fathered a bastard while Rowan was still alive, which, in the case of Fiona, isn't true.  

I'm not of the belief that he did, I'm just trying to put it as Loggy might see it...

And I did not express myself properly, if Maric had dalliances after Rowan's death perhaps that suggests he had them while she was still alive and he was married to her... I am attempting to explain what Loggy might be saying here, I don't actually think what he says is very clear... Especially bearing in mind that he himself had a crush (a consummated crush) on Rowan perhaps he is being more intolerant/unreasonable about Maric than he would usually be.

[Addai]

Tigress M wrote...
Why, on two counts?  Why would it have ruined Rowan since she's dead.  How could having a relationship after her death change her status as lawful wife?  And, why would it put Cailan's status as heir in question?  

According to toolset, Alistair is 32 and Cailan is 25.  Now, I know the ages are whacky (the Cousland's being 40 with a 30 year-old Fergus, for example).  But wouldn't the threat to Rowan's and Cailan's status only be present if Alistair were older than Cailan?

Anywho... I'm really just curious if any mother Fiona believers have some theories that help answer these two "whys".  I really would love for Alistair's mother to be Fiona, so help me explain this away!  LOL

*Stolen Throne spoilers*


I'm on Team Fiona.  I do think the comment by Loghain is a leftover from when Alistair was supposed to be older (my latest running theory is that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son!!), but they left it in because there is some context to Loghain that still makes it make sense.  He loved Rowan and to him, even a bastard after the fact would have tarnished both her memory and, if the bastard son unseated hers for the throne, her place in history.  In his mind, no woman should be allowed to compete with her on that field, just as he doesn't believe anyone should have the queen spot in the new generation but Anora.

Edit:  This is especially an acute idea for him, IMO, because he gave Rowan up so that she could be queen.  If another woman could have taken her place and given Maric an heir, it makes that sacrifice look unnecessary.  Loghain can operate under heavy denial at times.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[Tigress M]

@tuppence - In the books, Maric never cheats on Rowan, his wife. His relationship with Katriel is pre-Rowan and Fiona, post-Rowan. Because of this, I too, don't see him as a "player". However, neither of these relationships seem to fit with the threat to Rowan's and Cailan's status that Loghain claims to have existed in the dialog I posted earlier. As much as I want it to be otherwise, I'm still not convinced there wasn't another lover/bastard.

And Re: Duncan's responsibility, is that something that's come out about DA2 that I've not seen (since I avoid most "news" about the game)?

@Addai - Has there ever been any official word from Gaider about Alistair truly being younger than Cailan, despite what the toolset implies? That would go a long way to helping me resolve this as simply a plot shift that wasn't properly cleaned up, pre-release.

Modifié par Tigress M, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Tigress M]

And since there's way too little Alistair on this page... have a kiss. Bera doesn't mind sharing.

[Addai]

Tigress M wrote...
@Addai - Has there ever been any official word from Gaider about Alistair truly being younger than Cailan, despite what the toolset implies? That would go a long way to helping me resolve this as simply a plot shift that wasn't properly cleaned up, pre-release.

Yes, he corrected the timeline both of the game and of a misprint in The Calling that had Cailan older than he should be.  Both of these corrections put things in line to make the only real logical background for Alistair to be Fionaspawn.    If you believe the Redcliffe maid theory, you have to think Maric came back from the Deep Roads, from his affair with Fiona, and started dallying immediately with random chambermaid #2.  I am completely and utterly biased as a Maric fangirl, but IMO that is a stretch even if you're not.

[tuppence95]

Tigress M wrote...

@tuppence - In the books, Maric never cheats on Rowan, his wife. His relationship with Katriel is pre-Rowan and Fiona, post-Rowan. Because of this, I too, don't see him as a "player". However, neither of these relationships seem to fit with the threat to Rowan's and Cailan's status that Loghain claims to have existed in the dialog I posted earlier. As much as I want it to be otherwise, I'm still not convinced there wasn't another lover/bastard.

And Re: Duncan's responsibility, is that something that's come out about DA2 that I've not seen (since I avoid most "news" about the game)?

@Addai - Has there ever been any official word from Gaider about Alistair truly being younger than Cailan, despite what the toolset implies? That would go a long way to helping me resolve this as simply a plot shift that wasn't properly cleaned up, pre-release.

Re: Duncan's responsibility - It's been awhile since I've read The Calling, but at the end, I'm pretty sure that Duncan told Maric that he would watch over the baby from a distance.  His recruitment of Alistair before he became a templar makes it seem likely that he had been keeping an eye one him.

I had thought that Gaider did say the ages in the toolset were incorrect.  I vaguely remember that he said he was about 20.

[Maria13]

But then if there is another lover/bastard why would recognising Alistair pose a threat to Rowan's rep and Cailan's status? Surely only the existence of the third theoretical bastard would do that...



Duncan knew/was friendly with Fiona and Maric and knew Alistair was their child it would be unsurprising that he would keep tabs on him/protect him...

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

But then if there is another lover/bastard why would recognising Alistair pose a threat to Rowan's rep and Cailan's status? Surely only the existence of the third theoretical bastard would do that...

Duncan knew/was friendly with Fiona and Maric and knew Alistair was their child it would be unsurprising that he would keep tabs on him/protect him...

Yes, Duncan did promise Maric to keep an eye on Fiona's son.  That we know of, Duncan was not looking out for any other royal bastards but Alistair.  It's possible, of course.

Not sure I understand your first questions.  Alistair's existence posed a threat to Cailan's rule because Cailan wasn't popular, and regardless of that, people who wanted to cause trouble could use a second son as lever against him.  Maric's reason for not recognizing Alistair wasn't anything to do with Rowan's legacy- it was to protect Fiona and because he thought Alistair was better off.  The bit about Rowan is, IMO, either just Loghain's assumption or the excuse Maric gave him.

[nos_astra]

Cailan had been king for five years only. That's still ten years that Maric hadn't recognized his second son without Cailan's popularity being an issue.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

But then if there is another lover/bastard why would recognising Alistair pose a threat to Rowan's rep and Cailan's status? Surely only the existence of the third theoretical bastard would do that...

Duncan knew/was friendly with Fiona and Maric and knew Alistair was their child it would be unsurprising that he would keep tabs on him/protect him...

Yes, Duncan did promise Maric to keep an eye on Fiona's son.  That we know of, Duncan was not looking out for any other royal bastards but Alistair.  It's possible, of course.

Not sure I understand your first questions.  Alistair's existence posed a threat to Cailan's rule because Cailan wasn't popular, and regardless of that, people who wanted to cause trouble could use a second son as lever against him.  Maric's reason for not recognizing Alistair wasn't anything to do with Rowan's legacy- it was to protect Fiona and because he thought Alistair was better off.  The bit about Rowan is, IMO, either just Loghain's assumption or the excuse Maric gave him.

How much did Loghain even know about Alistair? If Eamon always kept him out of sight and Loghain didn't want anything to do with the child born of a liaison that tarnished Rowan, he could actually be under the impression that Alistair was born before Rowan died. It would only be a few years off even if they admited Alistair would be the younger sibling.

Besides, in addition to protecting Fiona's secret, I really think Loghain would handle the thought of Rowan being cheated on better than he would Maric having a child with an Orlesian elven Grey Warden mage. The first two are too Katriel and we already know his issues with Grey Wardens and presumably Orlesian mages after the events of The Calling.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Cailan had been king for five years only. That's still ten years that Maric hadn't recognized his second son without Cailan's popularity being an issue.

??  Not sure what you're getting at.  They still all believed that a second son would put Cailan's status in question.  As I think you mentioned earlier, primogeniture was not a big deal in Ferelden.  The older son was not going to get the job just because he was older, he would have to compete.  That very fact would make life difficult for Cailan.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
??  Not sure what you're getting at.

This:  Alistair's existence posed a threat to Cailan's rule because Cailan wasn't popular...

My brain is a bit slow today, I might have misunderstood the sentence.

[Maria13]

Tigress M wrote...

@tuppence - In the books, Maric never cheats on Rowan, his wife. His relationship with Katriel is pre-Rowan and Fiona, post-Rowan. Because of this, I too, don't see him as a "player". However, neither of these relationships seem to fit with the threat to Rowan's and Cailan's status that Loghain claims to have existed in the dialog I posted earlier. As much as I want it to be otherwise, I'm still not convinced there wasn't another lover/bastard.

I was responding to this part of Tigress's statement... Because the question to Loghain specifically mentions Alistair.

Modifié par Maria13, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
??  Not sure what you're getting at.

This:  Alistair's existence posed a threat to Cailan's rule because Cailan wasn't popular...

My brain is a bit slow today, I might have misunderstood the sentence.

Right, well obviously that comment only applies when Cailan is older, though apparently some already were skeptical about him if they're putting Bryce up rather than Maric's heir.

Edit @Tigress, you don't have to buy that Alistair really was a threat to Cailan's rule, though as I said upthread, he could have been due to the nature of Fereldan politics.  All we really know is that Eamon and Loghain thought he could be.  They both have their reasons to think that and be a little paranoid about it, and since Maric didn't want Alistair in the succession, it's an idea he would have encouraged or at least not corrected.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Addai]

What's that armor, tgail?

[errant_knight]

Tigress M wrote...
Alistair's comment I can write off as an outright lie (though I will admit it did give me pause when I first came across it). But this stuff with Loghain is more difficult to ignore, imho.
And of course, if Fiona is NOT Alistair's mother, that means there's a third heir out there somewhere which my twisted mind can't help but wonder if they could be tied into DA2, perhaps even Hawke him/herself. (I'm sure there are tons of reasons why that can't be, which, having purposely avoided the DA2 forum, I am completely oblivious to. But, it's fun to ponder, nonetheless. LOL)

That stuff with Loghain is pretty darn specific. I've never heard that, since I've never left him alive. It makes Maric's lack of acknowledgement make more sense than if it's not the case.

I have a hard time believing that they set up a Theirin dynasty that lasted 400 years, unbroken only by the Orlesian occupation, only to have the line die out with Alistair.

[Addai]

Oh, right. That one looked different than the other Witcher mods I've seen.

@errant, dynasties do come to an end.  There certainly is precedent in English history as well as other European monarchies.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

.

How much did Loghain even know about Alistair? If Eamon always kept him out of sight and Loghain didn't want anything to do with the child born of a liaison that tarnished Rowan, he could actually be under the impression that Alistair was born before Rowan died. It would only be a few years off even if they admited Alistair would be the younger sibling.

 

Judging by Anora's comments about Alistair, I would guess Loghain knew quite a bit about him, maybe more than Eamon did.  She seems to have a grasp of his character, given the bias that she's clearly trying to downplay his suitability for the throne.  She and Cailan must have had somebody keeping tabs on him in the Chantry, and I don't see why she wouldn't have shared that information with her father.

Edited to add:  oops, jumped in without noticing this was about his parentage, not about Alistair as a person.

Modifié par maxernst, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:24 .