27 réponses à ce sujet

[Fate Elixir]

  I currently have my rogues with boosted strength and dexterity and nothing else. When dealing with rogues are they better off only keeping daggers equipped and boosting dexterity and cunning? I have always been big on the warrior class, but am now just realizing as I approach the end of the game, that I have  warrior / rogues. All heavy armors and duel swords. Wondering what kind of difference a straight up rogue would make...

[Wonderllama4]

for a dagger swinging rogue. cunning is the most important if you have the Lethality talent. Dex is second most important. those two are all you need

[Oddrat]

For a rogue I would raise dex just enough to get the skills you want then put everything else into cunning. Str isn't required unless you want to wield swords which I wouldn't recommend since that is better suited for warriors.

[battleship potemkin village]

Right or wrong here's how I build a rogue: Every level I put 2 points in Dex and 1 in Cunning (sometimes I put the one in Con -- just for kicks). I wear no armor, just the Chasind robes you find in Ostagar (+6 to defense) and the Bard's Dancing Shoes (+ to defense as well) from Bhodan. Later I buy the mage's robes they sell in Denerim's magic shop (can't remember the name, but they add like +10 to defense). The reason is simple. With high Dex you don't get hit by non-magic, so you don't need any armor (which doesn't help against magic -- unless it specifically says so). If you keep Dex low you'll need high Strength to wear the armor you're going to need to keep the damage to a minimum. Of course, Dex doesn't help against magic, but that's where balm's come in handy.

Of course, the best way to build your character is the way you want to build your character, just be sure to get back with us and let us know how it turns out. Personally, for me, I think Str & Dex is not the best way to do it. You should probably concentrate on one or the other, but on the other hand, if you can pull off high dex with good armor, you just might make an uber tank.

P.S.: I put absolutely no points in str and was able to breeze through the game (though I admit it wasn't on Nightmare difficulty).

Modifié par battleship potemkin village, 10 août 2010 - 09:12 .

[smokey0990]

Never understood why people ask for this kind of advice, I always thought half the fun of an rpg was trying out different builds on your own to figure out which works best for you and which one you like the most, personally I prefer to put points into strength rather than cunning (though still focusing mostly on dexterity) then again my idea of the perfect rogue is basically a quick warrior who can use stealth

[Fate Elixir]

battleship potemkin village wrote...

 if you can pull off high dex with good armor, you just might make an uber tank.

 
Oddly enough, I have never used the "tank" strategy in this game. I'm sure it has its benefits, but all my rogues
are fighters. This further illustrates my "awakening" to the fact that I don't have straight up rogues, but have warrior / rogues. I'm going to need to play the three rogues party again and this type dump points into cunning and dexterity.
Cunning seems so useless but from what people are saying its not.

Good tips everyone, thanks!

[Fate Elixir]

smokey0990 wrote...

 personally I prefer to put points into strength rather than cunning (though still focusing mostly on dexterity) then again my idea of the perfect rogue is basically a quick warrior who can use stealth

This is exactly me at the moment. Looking for something different on my next playthrough. Thanks for the input.

[Fate Elixir]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

for a dagger swinging rogue. cunning is the most important if you have the Lethality talent. Dex is second most important. those two are all you need

Very helpful, thank you. I'm gathering that cunning is much more important than I thought. I previously thought it was the most useless of attributes but it appears I am sorely mistaken. This is a pleasent surprise.

[hazmatzak]

Who opens the locked chests and disarms the traps? You need Cunning for that. (I'd say Magic is the least useful for a rogue: it improves the efficacy of potions, and....) It also affects Persuasion, although getting ranks in Coercion has more effect.

If you take the high-Cunning approach, so you don't have to take more than a couple ranks in Deft Hands, then you should definitely get Lethality. It's also good for some Assassin and Bard talents, plus Armor Penetration. With some buffs you're easily doing 30 points in AP with daggers, nullifying a great deal of armor. Fast attack speed multiplies the effect of runes, poisons, and buffs, and you've got a decent killing machine.

Although I tend to prefer Dex with its sky-high Defense and better Attack score.

[Janni-in-VA]

If you plan to fight sword and dagger, put a few points into Strength so that you can wield the upper tier swords. If you plan to keep dual wielding daggers, then Strength isn't an issue. I pump most points into Dexterity and Cunning. If your Cunning is high enough, you can find and disable traps without putting a point into trap making. On my last rogue playthrough, I discovered the wonderful world of poisons. Good daggers, high Dexterity and poisoned blades can do amazing amounts of damage very quickly. Be sure to get recipes for the upper tier poisons when they're available. I keep rogues in the best light armor I can find since their higher Dexterity keeps them from taking a lot of hits.

EDIT:  There is a mod called "Forgotten Armor" that adds a set of medium armor back into the game.  This stuff is in the tool set, it was just never added to the game.  It's available immediately (via the mod) to rogue PCs.  It's not uber powerful, but makes a really good end-game armor.

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 11 août 2010 - 05:31 .

[Limorkil]

The main thing I realized that made developing rogue pcs/companions easier is that strength really is unnecessary. Your rogue pc can get enough strength from The Fade and items to wear the decent leather armor later in the game. Your companion rogues do not need any more strength than they start with, unless you insist on giving them high tier leather armor, which I do not think is all that necessary. Even if you do need to raise strength to wear items, all the decent items are later in the game so do not raise strength until you are sure you want to. I find that my PC rogue, or a companion like Leliana, does just fine in any robe that adds defense. It is so rare that an enemy targets a rogue anyway, and even if they do they usually get stun-locked and/or killed before they can do any hits.



For the record, I found the following development strategy to work best for me:

- Ignore strength.

- Raise base cunning to 22 by level 12. Obviously, Fade bonuses mean the pc does not need to put much in cunning.

- Take all four deft hands skills. I prefer to have 4 skills + cunning 22 + cunning bonuses from items to be able to open every lock. I could have fewer skills and more cunning, but I prefer dex over cunning.

- All other points into dex.

- I do not bother with the "lethality" talent line. I am not saying lethality is not useful, I just do not feel like I need it for this build. I do not particularly like the two talents that come before it.



The "usual" alternative is to raise dex to 30 and put everything else into cunning. You do not need all the deft hand talents but you should definitely take "lethality". Honestly, I think the end result is about the same. The high dex rogue does less damage but never misses and never has to worry about being hit. The high cunning rogue does more damage but misses more often and may waste some time trying to get away from a hard hitting attacker. High cunning is probably more powerful at the end of the game and at lower difficulty settings (where you miss less often). You would think higher cunning would make other rogue skills more effective - and it does - but I never notice the difference because by the time cunning is high enough to supplement those skills the parts of the game where you need those skills are mostly behind you.

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

As far as it goes the OP may find the following helpfull :

Why Cunning is important for a rogue :

1. For everypoint in Cunning over 10, get a bonus of .14 to Armor Penetration (so 40 cunning will give you a 4.2 AP bonus).
2. With lethality chosen, the strength damage bonus for weapons is transfered to cunning.
3. Picking Locks, Detecting Traps and Disarming Traps all use cunnning. The more cunning you have the less Deft Hands talents you need. 50 cunning + 2 deft hands will open every lock in the game and disarm every trap, alternatively 40 cunning + 3 Deft Hands will do likewise. (See the Rogue Mechanics Explained post on the Bioware forums for more detail on this). Trap making only affects the distance you can detect traps, it does not affect your chance of detection.
4. Both stealling and Coercion use cunning. More cunning allows you to reduce the number of Coercion skills you take, 35 cunning + 3 levels of coercion will allow you to persuede anyone in the game that is persuedable. As far as stealing goes, this also depends on your stealth talent tree, see the Rogue Mechanics article for more info.
5. Several talents employ physical resistence rolls based on cunning, others are enhanced (damagewise or other) by cunning.

TALENTS EMPLOYING CUNNING FOR PHYSICAL RESISTENCE CHECKS
Rogue Talents - Below the belt.
Duel Weapon Talents - Riposte.
Archery Talents - Pinning Shot and possibly Shattering Shot
Duelist Talents - Upset Balance.
Bard Talents - Distration and Captivating Song.

TALENTS ENHANCED BY CUNNING

Rogue - Lethality (Damage)
Assasin - Exploit Weakness (Extra Damage).
Bard - Song of Valour and Song of Courage (Both have their benefits scaled up by cunning)
Power of Blood DLC (Rogue) - I think the talent is called Tainted blood, but may have another name, eitherway its damage bonus is scaled by cunning.

6. Cunning contributes .5 , per point above 10, to physical resistence just like strength.
7. Certain skills depend on cunning, although I think you can get any skill that does by raising cunning to a modest 16.
8. Various rogue talents require cunning as a base requisite (deft hands tree and stealth trees).

Outside of the mechanics info, my advice would be rasie strength to 20 (to allow for equipping the best light armor available), raise dex to 36 (to meet all dexterity talent prerequisites), then raise cunning to 35 (persuede anyone with only 3 levels of the coercion skill. After that distribute your points as you see fit and depending on difficulty (getting hit to much or missing increase dex, need more damage, AP or better trap disarmenent/lockpicking/stealing increase cunning, etc). You may also want more strength if you do not intent to use duel daggers or a bow. NOTE : The order you raise these should be based on your PC's needs as he/she progresses, please do not take my meaning to be raise strength to 20, then raise dex to 36, then raise cunning to 35 ...

As an caveat to the above point I would probably increase my strength early so that the strength damage bonus translates immediately before gaining lethality. This methedology makes for a more efficient use of strength, as early points into cunning will not give a damage bonus (until lethality) and later points in strength will not bequeth one either (after lethality and cunning greater then strength). Obviously if you need cunning for your prerequisites or talents then you may need to rethink this.

One final suggestion, make sure you have cou de gra and all talents you can find that stun foes (dirty fighting, riposte, and possibly shattering shot for a nimble footed archer). Automatic backstabs from any angle on stunned opponents is a powerfull ability. This can be further enhanced with the assassin specialisation.

Honestly though do what you think is best, or provides the most enjoyment. There is not one single ultimate build, just those better suited for different tasks. The build you require is going to be highly dependent on your playstyle and expectations for your rogue (scout, ranged DPS, melee DPS, off tank etc).

Hope this helps

Regards

Modifié par Gabriel Pyyrhic, 11 août 2010 - 06:25 .

[Fate Elixir]

hazmatzak wrote...

Who opens the locked chests and disarms the traps? You need Cunning for that.  .

I have managed to open all chests and disarm all traps with Leliana's deft hands skills and 1st slot of trap making, with no cunning ever added.

That being said your post is very informative and helpful. Especially the part about attack speed affecting rune bonuses. Also the idea of having daggers that can inflict 30 AP is pretty enticing.

Modifié par Fate Elixir, 11 août 2010 - 07:53 .

[Fate Elixir]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

 If your Cunning is high enough, you can find and disable traps without putting a point into trap making.

On my last rogue playthrough, I discovered the wonderful world of poisons.

  It is helpful to know I don't need to waste a point on trap making in my next playthrough.

  I have barely dabbled in poisons but have noticed the concentrated deathroot and venoms are nice. I wonder if there are other poisons I just haven't noticed? Thanks.

[Fate Elixir]

Limorkil wrote...

The main thing I realized that made developing rogue pcs/companions easier is that strength really is unnecessary. Your rogue pc can get enough strength from The Fade 

I find that my PC rogue, or a companion like Leliana, does just fine in any robe that adds defense.

Great post! This is helpful hearing those who did not dump a ton into strength that it is not necessary. After all Lethality can make up for it when it comes to attacks if cunning is high enough.

The robes on rogues is so foreign of a concept to me, but it makes perfect sense. Since we deck out rogues with as much dexterity as possible, it makes sense to decrease the fatigue as much as possible. I come from the old school where bigger armor is always better. I like that this is the first game I have played where this is not necessarily so if you are playing a rogue. I must admit though, having my PC rogue in Wardens armor set, Leliana in Cailans armor set, and Zevran in Legion of the Dead armor set is pretty awesome. Next playthrough however I am taking the advice I'm given here and its all robes.

Modifié par Fate Elixir, 11 août 2010 - 09:40 .

[hazmatzak]

Fate Elixir wrote...

I have managed to open all chests and disarm all traps with Leliana's deft hands skills and 1st slot of trap making, with no cunning ever added.

Trap Making does not affect disarming. Also, contrary to the description, it does not increase trap detection range at ranks 2 and 4.

There are a very small number of 60-point chests that would be impossible to open without raising (effective) Cunning to at least 30 (with Deft Hands at rank 4). With max Approval bonus and a few key items, you might barely make it. So I would say that while you may have opened all you found, it's possible that you didn't find all of them; especially if you did not backtrack after getting Cunning that high later in the game. Not that missing a few chests really matters of course -- unless you're a completist (and nothing wrong with that).

[Fate Elixir]

smokey0990 wrote...

  I always thought half the fun of an rpg was trying out different builds on your own  

Don't get me wrong, it is half the fun. The problem is that you can't detract attribute points once used. Therefore you have to set out with a goal in mind early and to achieve it you will likely only primarily dump points into 2 attributes. So it would take many playthroughs (and the game isn't short) to experience them all. This is where getting second opinions from those who have played differently is great. Saves me the trial and error. After all, once I start a game I finish it. 

[Fate Elixir]

 


"There are a very small number of 60-point chests that would be impossible to open without raising (effective) Cunning to at least 30 (with Deft Hands at rank 4). "  

In response, according to Gabriel Pyyric above "50 cunning + 2 deft hands will open every lock in the game and disarm every trap." This does of course require backtracking to get many chests; likely only for loot to sell at that point. I hear you on the items that contribute to cunning helping though.   

Modifié par Fate Elixir, 12 août 2010 - 12:43 .

[Fate Elixir]

   Gabrielle Pyrhhic wrote...

Hope this helps

 

Very helpful! That goes above and beyond brother, thanks! 

Modifié par Fate Elixir, 12 août 2010 - 12:46 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Interesting info. My next playthrough will be as a rogue, my first time with the class, besides playing with Leliana. With her, I basically made her an archer/lockpicker, not investing much in stealth or stun/backstabbing talents.

[hazmatzak]

Fate Elixir wrote...

"There are a very small number of 60-point chests that would be impossible to open without raising (effective) Cunning to at least 30 (with Deft Hands at rank 4). "  

In response, according to Gabriel Pyyric above "50 cunning + 2 deft hands will open every lock in the game and disarm every trap."

We are both correct. Consider that an attribute of 10 is considered "average" or "baseline":

(Cunning - 10) + (Deft Hands rank * 10) = Lockpick/disarm score

Since you said you never raised Cunning, at the max Deft Hands of 4, you need an effective (with bonuses) Cunning of 30, which as I said is tough but doable with Leliana.

With the opposite approach of jacking up Cunning, you should end up with at least 70 toward the end of the game, in which case you don't need Deft Hands at all (when you finally get that high). And there's every approach in between.

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

No worries OP.



A couple a caveats to my original post :



1. I believe that everything I wrote was correct, but would not guarantee it is error free.

2. My suggestions on rasing attributes, considers only the attributes themsleves not how they are raised, for example levelling up, item, bonus, etc.

3. As far as prerequisites for talents go, your base ability score needs to meet these without consideration of bonus's ie say from a piece of equipment. However I believe that this is not the case for armour/weapon abiity requirements, but am not entirely certain.



Finally you may find the following links helpfull :



A. The Rogue Mechanics Link I mentioned (VERY HELPFULL).

http://social.biowar.../index/243304/1



B. The Missing Manual : Paticulalry usefull for determining the mechanics behind talents, including there passive bonus', ie so you know lethality gives a whopping 10% bonus to critical chance rather then just knowing it gives a bonus to critical chance. The Dragon Age wiki also has this information, but I thought this site was easier to navigate and less cluttered. FYI Specilization talents are not as comprehensively covered, use the wikia for these.

http://dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php



C. Article from the DA Wikia on Rogue Talents

http://dragonage.wik...i/Rogue_Talents



D. Another Wikia Article, this time on Combat Mechanics (VERY USEFULL)

http://dragonage.wik...ombat_Mechanics



E. A Missing Manual Artilce on Weapon Stats (Covers all attributes of a weapon, ie speed, abililty attribute, ability damage modifier, requirement, damage, AP, Crit Chance, aim time, range etc)

http://dragonage.gul...p/items/weapons



F. DA Wikia Artilicle, covering Miscellaenous Links to other Mechanics Information.

http://dragonage.wik...:Game_Mechanics



Apologies if this is more info then required, I just assumed it might be usefull for you.



FYI If you read the Rogue Mecahnics article, I believe the bonus that the author refers to when detecting traps, is solely a bonus granted when detecting as opposed to disarming them. The article's author was unsure of its purpose (or when it was granted), and so my belief should only be taken as an educated guess. That said it seems to make sense in my book, but I could be wrong ...



Good luck in your future adventures, and glad I could be of assistence.

[Fate Elixir]

Gabriel Pyyrhic wrote...



Apologies if this is more info then required

I don't know if there can be too much information on this site. The only reason I don't quote your helpful points
is because there are too many   Thanks.

[Fate Elixir]

hazmatzak wrote...

 

. Consider that an attribute of 10 is considered "average" or "baseline":

(Cunning - 10) + (Deft Hands rank * 10) = Lockpick/disarm score

This helps me understand my options of more cunning vs deft hands better. Thanks!

Modifié par Fate Elixir, 12 août 2010 - 08:19 .

[Zevais]

Maric's blade has no strength requirement at all even though it is a longsword... a good pick so you can avoid that pesky stength attribute and focus on dex and cunning

Modifié par Zevais, 12 août 2010 - 10:02 .